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BRB pg 36, 2nd paragraph under Assaultng Through Cover.

"To represent this, if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all of its models have their Initiative value reduced to 1 when attacking, regardless of other Initiative modifiers."

So... yeah. Its not that they even move through terrain. Its that they took a test, which Spore Cloud definitely DOES force them to take, regardless of whether or not the cloud is a terrain feature.

Also, Spre Cloud.

Archim3des wrote:Also, Spre Cloud.

I wonder how many TOs are going to ignore this rule...
Also - I wonder how many TOs ignore the Lash ruling.

Which rule? The arbitrary FAQ one which technically relates to nothing, or the rock solid one in the BRB that states that Initiative being lowered to one could care less about whether you moved through terrain or not, so long as you took a test?

The FAQ that explicitly says you don't suffer the I1 for Spore Cloud (misspelling notwithstanding).

FAQ says you don't get lowered to I1 for assaulting through the Spre Cloud, because the Spore Cloud is not terrain.
I could not agree more. I'd even agree if it wasn't misspelled.

Because terrain has no effect whatsoever on the Initiative penalty.
Taking a difficult or dangerous terrain test during the assault does.

Granted, moving through difficult or dangerous terrain, which the Spore/Spre Cloud does not constitute (per FAQ), is the most common way of incurring these tests. But its not what causes the Initiative penalty. Not by a long shot.

Tyranids Faq:
Q: If a Tyranid unit takes a Mycetic Spore, can an
Independent Character join the brood before
deployment (and hence deep strike in with the brood)?
A: No.
Q: If a Tyranid unit takes a Mycetic Spore, can it choose
to deploy normally whilst the empty Mycetic Spore
deep strikes on its own? (p54)
A: No.

Space Marines Faq:
Q: Can you use a Drop Pod on its own, with no squad
inside? (p69)
A: Yes you can.

%@#$! games workshop!

I'll concede that GW's ruling on Mycetic Spores vs Drop Pods is just stupid. I couldn't agree more, especially since it ruined my plans for Drop Warriors!

Assaulting Through Cover, per Page 36:

1) If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving.
2) If the closest model cannot make it into contact with the enemy, the assault fails.
3) If the model stopped 1" away from the enemy in the Movement or Shooting phase, it can Assault even if its unit rolls a double 1 on its difficult terrain test.
4) If an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all of its models have their Initiative value lowered to 1 when attacking, regardless of other Initiative modifiers.
5) If all of the enemy units assaulted were already locked in combat from a previous turn or had gone to ground the unit assaulting through cover fights at its normal Initiative.

People seem to be getting hung on on Rule #4, listed above.

From the FAQ update:

Q: Do enemy models assaulting a Venomthrope brood,
or another frindly Tyranid unit within range of its Spre
Cloud, have their Initiative reduced to 1 for assaulting
through the cloud? (p45)

A: No, as the Spore Cloud is not a piece of terrain.

This seems to indicate that the title of that section, "Assaulting Through Cover", is part of the RAW. Its not the test alone that forces Initiative 1, its the combination of the test and the terrain.

This means that that things that say "treats all terrain, even clear terrain, as both difficult and dangerous" lower your Initiative if you charge through without assault grenades. At the same time, it means things like the Venomthrope that simply say "must take a dangerous terrain test" don't lower Initiative.

Please correct the wording if I listed the Venomthrope's ability wrong. I don't have the Tyranid Codex in front of me so I'm having to go from memory (normally i try to avoid that). If the ability is worded as "any unit that is within 6" of a Venomthrope treats all terrain as dangerous terrain" then it would lower the Init. Since it doesn't, well, it doesn't.

Cowmonaut, what?
I'm not sure where to start on how wrong that is, all of it.

The rulebook says the initiative penalty is incurred only if they took a test, no matter how much text you try and bury that under. Terrain has nothing to do with that, unless it caused a test.

Terrain or not, the Spore Cloud will never reduce your Inititive to 1 because the FAQ says no. The explaination is just that, an explaination.

It may be wrong, but its still official. and is what is used in tournaments.

You mean the Spre Cloud. And also, probably, explanation.
I'm fine with the Spre Cloud specifically not causing I1.
So long as you still take a dangerous terrain test.
Because taking a dangerous terrain test does.

Per the FAQ, it doesn't in the case of the spore cloud. I agree that this conflicts with the rulebook, but the FAQ overrides the rulebook as far as this forum and most tournaments and local friendly groups are concerned.

Cowmonaut's post seemed to be an attempt at understanding the reasoning behind why GW ruled this way.

Sure, the Spore Cloud test does not drop you to I1.

Just so long as the tests from Murderous Hurricane, Sanctuary, Tremor Staffs, Slow and Purposeful, Thunderfire cannons, etc, etc. don't either because they are all quite obviously not terrain aswell.

And while we are at it, you can't drop empty Drop Pods or put ICs in them either.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:Sure, the Spore Cloud test does not drop you to I1.

Just so long as the tests from Murderous Hurricane, Sanctuary, Tremor Staffs, Slow and Purposeful, Thunderfire cannons, etc, etc. don't either because they are all quite obviously not terrain aswell.

And while we are at it, you can't drop empty Drop Pods or put ICs in them either.

To be fair there is a difference in he abilities. Spore Cloud forces a dangerous terrain test, afaik everything you listed says to treat everything as difficult/dangerous terrain.

Yes, the rules only require you to take a test, but there is a difference in the abilities.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:Sure, the Spore Cloud test does not drop you to I1.

Just so long as the tests from Murderous Hurricane, Sanctuary, Tremor Staffs, Slow and Purposeful, Thunderfire cannons, etc, etc. don't either because they are all quite obviously not terrain aswell.

And while we are at it, you can't drop empty Drop Pods or put ICs in them either.

The Spore Cloud only doesn't because of the FAQ.

Those other things you mentioned have NOT been FAQ'd in a similer way and we cannot apply the specific Spore Cloud FAQ to them.

We could if Spore Cloud was worded differently, but it isn't, so we can't.

I'm just saying that there are abilities that do the same thing, but 'Nids get singled out just because.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:I'm just saying that there are abilities that do the same thing, but 'Nids get singled out just because.

They don't do the same thing. Spore Cloud does not say to treat the area as dangerous terrain. It says to take a dangerous terrain test if you assault into it.

The other abilities say to treat terrain as difficult/dangerous.

rigeld2 wrote:We could if Spore Cloud was worded differently, but it isn't, so we can't.

Spore Clouds are different because of the FAQ.

GW has simply arbitrarily ruled against their own rules.


Thats just how it is. I'm not saying its right, its just how it is.

And the FAQ doesn't apply to the other abilities because Spore Cloud is worded differently.

The BRB says dangerous terrain tests cause units to strike at I1 the turn they charge.
Dangerous terrain tests are caused by Spore Clouds.
This implies that Spore Clouds cause units to strike at I1 the turn they charge.
(Factor in GW Tyranid-hating logic...)
Therefore units affected by Spore Clouds do not strike at I1 because there is no terrain......



GW = logic-fail

Yes, logic fail on GWs part, but that is the official ruling that is used in competitive circles.

Feel free to ignore it in casual games but it will be used in tournaments.

Although I would like to say they strike at I1 I took this to the store manager (a keen tournament player) and his OPINION is that the charging unit takes a dangerous terrain test but charge through any actual terrain and so the initiative decrease does not occur.

His opinion goes against the BRB which simply requires a test be taken. Unfortunately the FAQ went against the rules in the BRB.

His opinion is with the FAQ. It seems the codex is written that way as well, that the dangerous terrain test should be made but nothing else. Although I religiously use Venomthropes for their ability they would seem very overpower if you take the dangerous terrain test, lose bonus charging attacks AND go down to I1.

Yeah, because they're so hard to kill with shooting.

rigeld2 wrote:Yeah, because they're so hard to kill with shooting.

Hint of sarcasm there? They are if you put them behind the unit you are protecting like you said earlier. 4+ save or can't be seen at all?

Wow Warriors must be hard to kill too!

2 wounds with a 4+ save is not hard to kill. The 5+ cover save is useful enough that I like them, and the other stuff was enough to make me not use Hive Guard for that slot. Every tiny nerf makes them less worth that precious slot.

I do believe Nids have been really put down by GW. They are a hard army to play but have some really nice tricks, but they are supposed to die easily anyway.

phantommaster wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Yeah, because they're so hard to kill with shooting.

Hint of sarcasm there? They are if you put them behind the unit you are protecting like you said earlier. 4+ save or can't be seen at all?

The new Tervigons and Tyranofex's are so big they need venoms now. Gargs just dont cover enough of them. Also the big fat models block a hell of alot of LOS protecting the venoms big time.