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Orks.

Both fluff and game play is crazy for this army. Space Marines don't seem to be an 'erratic' or 'random' army.

Nothing in the SM codex is random.... Every other army out there roles for scattering DS stuff regardless of how much TECH they have..... Yet a SM DP lways goes where it pleases.... Dosent sound very random to me.

I voted for Orks, but could you please modify the statement you make in your first post as it's a BLATANT LIE, I followed the other thread BTW

jgehunter wrote:I voted for Orks, but could you please modify the statement you make in your first post as it's a BLATANT LIE, I followed the other thread BTW

How is it a lie?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

jgehunter wrote:I voted for Orks, but could you please modify the statement you make in your first post as it's a BLATANT LIE, I followed the other thread BTW

How is it a lie?

You are taking it out of context, I think he was trying to say that purely Mathematically the results given by the orks would be more consistent with the average than the SM, nobody in his mind would say SM are entirely more erratic than orkzez

jgehunter wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

jgehunter wrote:I voted for Orks, but could you please modify the statement you make in your first post as it's a BLATANT LIE, I followed the other thread BTW

How is it a lie?

You are taking it out of context, I think he was trying to say that purely Mathematically the results given by the orks would be more consistent with the average than the SM, nobody in his mind would say SM are entirely more erratic than orkzez

Oh I see.
Yeah, the opening question was a bit of a no-brainer.

Edited at your request to accurately quote the answer to my statement that random and erratic was more of an ork thing..

Not a lie, btw Entirely False means Entirely False, and my statement didn't specify that I was referring to the armies in a purely mathematical standpoint,

I'm aware that large Ork mobs may be able to reliably deliver more hits than smaller opposing units.

I was taling about the armies as a whole (and bikerboys in specific) as those were the unit in discussion before the 'debate' started, not maxed squads of shootaboys only, from a mathhammer perspective only I argued fluff and examples of random units as evidence of ork randomness in the other thread, but perhaps you missed them, or ignored them ?

I'm not interested in starting another flame war on the subject, however, so please take a chill pill


Also if you could explain to me exactly how my original statement is a BLATENT LIE i'd appreciate it. I don't recall writing any blatant lies, and if you're going to accuse me of being a liar i'd like to know on what grounds. Also please don't NETSHOUT

As I recall in the other thread you argued that SM shooting was more reliable than Ork shooting. If you compare equal points of Tactical or Shoota boyz (or Bikers, for that matter), the Orky shooting is more reliable. When you throw more dice they tend to fall closer to the average. That's basic probability.

As i recall i said that I said that, for me, it didn't tend to work out that way I seem to be far luckier with my SM than my Orks for shooting.


"I find that regardless of the larger number of shots, a BS of 4 tops a BS of 2

Hitting on 5, with a reroll isn't nearly as prone to yeidling results, for me at least, as hitting on 3+ in the first place "


As to space marine shooting in general being more reliable that ork shooting, it certainly is, overall. A 3+ to hit beats a 5+ to hit any day, even with a reroll. (bikers) unless you have significant superiority in firepower. . If you compare tac marines and shootaboyz at even points they will hit more often, as i've acknowledged in both posts, but as we weren't asking 'can 30 shootaboyz outshoot 10 tac marines' but responding to the reply to my statement tha t' if i want reliable i will go with SM, and that random and erratic is more of an ork thing' that it was COMPLETELY FALSE...

12 bikers vs 10 tac marines isn't even points. 12 bikers come to about 300 points, and 300 pts will buy about 18 marines (if i have my math right). The 12 bikers will shoot 36 shots, hit with 12, and maybe get another 8 hits on the reroll on average, so 20 hits. The 18 Marines will shoot 36 shots, and hit with 24, which would make them the more reliable option. I'm not sure on how many SM bikes 300 pts would buy, as i don't have my codex on me. If you could give me the numbers on that we could work it out?

I did say that marines are reliably accurate.

"1/. Marines, in any probability sum concerning their unit's ability to accurately hit the target, will have a higher percentage of hits per roll. They are reliably accurate regardless of the number of dice rolled." This is true, as they will hit more often than the statistical average across their rolls.

And this also

"If i want reliable i will go for SM - true- they are reliably predictable. They will roll their average number of hits consistently, with 2 out of 3 shots hitting on the average, and one not. "



Space marine shooting IS more reliable than ork shooting, in general, as only Boyz mobs and Grot mobs can really put their numerical superiority to best use. You'd need appoximately 3:1 superiority in shots to beat them in shots hit, which most ork units simply can't reach. Some can, most can't.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also said this, right at the start of the 'debate' :

If you keep it to shootaboyz (who aren't random or erratic perticularly) this holds more or less true. A heap of Shootaboyz will outshoot a handful of Marines. You are also assuming that the ork unit (which is less survivable) has all it's members when both sides are in optimal firing rangem, but that's beside the point.

and

"Orks can bring weight of fire very well, i'll not argue that. Shootaboytz aren't the only unit orks have, and i'm talking about Orks in general as being random and erratic "

The rest of the debate focussed on the Law of Large Numbers meaning that orks are more reliable shooters than SM, which would only hold true really for units that could pump out more shots that the SM by a large margin. I was discussing Orks as a whole, and said so repeatedly IIRC, not just Tacmarines vs Shootaboyz

Rudeness redacted. -Mannahnin

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Because some posters just can't stand common sense and logic.

You mean this : -

Darkwynn wrote:Actual, the person who is telling you that would be correct at some levels. It's depends on what you are rolling for.


For example if you have thirty boys when you roll dice in theory and by looking at a bell curve you could get a better distribution. When rolling your say 90 attacks from charging your going to get a better average +or - some from the bell curve.


With marines you have better chance of hitting but since your rolling a smaller sample set such as 5 dice or your shooting your more prone rolling lopsided or a miss. Like when you see someone roll 5 1's. It's a lot harder to do that with 30 orks.


You could view it in different ways but there is some truth to what the person told you.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ascalam wrote:Hitting on 5, with a reroll isn't nearly as prone to yeidling results, for me at least, as hitting on 3+ in the first place "

That's because 5+ with reroll only gives you an expected success 55% of the point, while 3+ gives you 66% success.
Duhz.

Your math is all wrong.

Ascalam wrote:I did say that marines are reliably accurate.

"1/. Marines, in any probability sum concerning their unit's ability to accurately hit the target, will have a higher percentage of hits per roll. They are reliably accurate regardless of the number of dice rolled." This is true, as they will hit more often than the statistical average across their rolls.

And this also

"If i want reliable i will go for SM - true- they are reliably predictable. They will roll their average number of hits consistently, with 2 out of 3 shots hitting on the average, and one not. "

You don't even understand the concept of RELIABILITY You look at reliability in totality, taking into consideration all the rolls you made. Your sentence in bold is a total fail, because you don't look at each roll in isolation.

Also the sentence " they will hit more often than the statistical average across their rolls" is totally wrong, because your statistical average is your statistical average. You can't say that your statistical average is 3, and then say that you would normally/tend to roll more than 3. Because math (the statistical average) tells you that you should expect an average of 3. Anything better would be results skewing to the right - getting lucky, and NOT the EXPECTED result.

I would say the SM is way more random.

The idea of orks is to just go in and get into a fight, no matter how you get into the fight, just get in a fight.

Space Marines, varies among the Chapters. Not even talking about other Codexes, just the main Chapters. Each one has their own thing; twin link this, re-roll bolter misses, now have infiltrate, so on and so on.

I know Orks have thier special characters, but, they are just ways to get into the fight different ways. Not one changes how the army is built.

I wouldn't say that would make them more random, or more erratic, unless you are rolling at random for which HQ you take. Usually when i'm listbuilding i tend to select my units carefully. They might be said to be more varied though, as there are more options to modify how the army is set up.


Not all ork units are intended to get into close combat, but i take your point that the SM have more characters that change the FOC or grant army wide abilities.

Wazdakka makes bikers troop choices, and they aren't that great in CC. They are a shooting unit, primarily. It's a pretty hefty departure from the usual Boyz Mobs as troops, especially if you are playing a full on Wazzdakka list with 12 units of bikers, a bikerboss and Wazzdakka. I'm not saying, before someone flames me for it, that it is a super-competitive build, but it IS different

Big Meks can make Dreads troop choices, making it entirely possible to run an ork Mekbash army without a single Infantry model. Again, not necessarily hyper-competitive, but different



There are a number of units in the Ork dex that really don't want to get into a close in fight, like Lootas and Big Gunz, for example.

If you mean fight to include shooting and CC both, their main objective is to get into fights also, isn't it? It's what they were designed for, and each of their special abilities reflects different methods of getting into fights, and different ways to fight when you get there.

Ascalam wrote:I wouldn't say that would make them more random, or more erratic, unless you are rolling at random for which HQ you take. Usually when i'm listbuilding i tend to select my units carefully. They might be said to be more varied though, as there are more options to modify how the army is set up.


Not all ork units are intended to get into close combat, but i take your point that the SM have more characters that change the FOC or grant army wide abilities.

Wazdakka makes bikers troop choices, and they aren't that great in CC. They are a shooting unit, primarily. It's a pretty hefty departure from the usual Boyz Mobs as troops, especially if you are playing a full on Wazzdakka list with 12 units of bikers, a bikerboss and Wazzdakka. I'm not saying, before someone flames me for it, that it is a super-competitive build, but it IS different

Big Meks can make Dreads troop choices, making it entirely possible to run an ork Mekbash army without a single Infantry model. Again, not necessarily hyper-competitive, but different



There are a number of units in the Ork dex that really don't want to get into a close in fight, like Lootas and Big Gunz, for example.

If you mean fight to include shooting and CC both, their main objective is to get into fights also, isn't it? It's what they were designed for, and each of their special abilities reflects different methods of getting into fights, and different ways to fight when you get there.

Not disagreeing with you. It is true that there are few units in the Ork dex that do not want to fight, but, the idea of orks is to fight. Even though there are selections that let nobz/dreads, and other units "troops", it doesn't realy change the idea of the Ork army. I just think SM are more "random". Orks don't realy have a random thing as a main idea.

Lets review, even though I may miss something:

Wierdboy: Yes, his ability is truely random. He might be the most random rules in the entire game

the Waagh ability: Yes, a role that you are not sure what you are getting, However, you usualy plan for it, thus, negating the randomness of it.

Deffguns: Just roll to see if you get 1 to 3 shots each. Not realy random, but, it is somewhat.

If you don't see how making a random roll to determine how many shots the unit fires is random, then there's not much hope of discussing randomness accurately The number of results is low (1,2 or 3 per model) but there is no way of predicting which it will be on an y given turn without loaded dice.

I would say the SM are more Varied in their options for battle tactics/ways to engage the enemy (though they will either be getting in a fight, shooting, chilling on the battlebarge waiting to come in from reserves or hiding inside a transport regardless) , the orks more Random (in that they have so many units with unpredictable effects, but feel free to disagree. I'm not looking for a flame war.

Waagh- It's a random roll. Even if you plan for it, it's still a random roll. It doesn't stop being random just because you get closer to the enemy (to minimize the problem of getting a low roll). There is still a 1/6 chance of inflicting wounds on your units.

Wierdboy- beyond gonzoed random, tis true.

Deffrolla- Random number of Hits. You can predict it will damage what it rams, but not how many times, as it's a random roll.

Ramshackle- Random roll to see what actually happens, instead of a set result.

SAG - Nuff said.

Zapp Gunz - Random strength, with random chance of killing a crewman.

Bomb Squigs - random chance of killing your own tank rather than the enemy.

Stormboyz- Random movement, with possibility of killing unit members.

KMB- As Plasmagun: Gets Hot rule.

If you're rolling to see what happens from several possibilities it's random. It's random even if there only a couple of results, as long as you have to make a random roll on it.



As far as i know the only random event SM have beyond the usual is Plasmagun venting.



Edit for additions: The BA Red Thirst (or whatever) is a random roll per unit also.

Ascalam wrote:As i recall i said that I said that, for me, it didn't tend to work out that way I seem to be far luckier with my SM than my Orks for shooting.

You're saying that you haven't observed the laws of probability being in effect in regards to your dice. A lot of people feel that way subjectively, but few try to argue that math doesn't work.

Ascalam wrote:As "I find that regardless of the larger number of shots, a BS of 4 tops a BS of 2

Hitting on 5, with a reroll isn't nearly as prone to yeidling results, for me at least, as hitting on 3+ in the first place "

5+ with re-roll = 54% odds. 4+ = 66%.

180pts of shoota boys = 60 shots = 20 hits on average.
180pts of tactical marines (say 10 with plasma and heavy bolter) = 23 shots = 15.2 hits on average.

Of course a point for point comparison is kind of beside the point. The real point is that probability tells us that if I flip 100 coins, I am more likely to get a result closer to 50% than if I flip 10. And if I flip 12, I'm more likely to get 50% than I am if I flip 6. Check out Standard Deviations. The Orks above, throwing their 60 dice, will more reliably get 20 hits than those SM throwing 23 dice will get 15. The SM are more likely to get deviations significantly above or below the average.

We've been round and round this in both threads.

I've already SAID that a heap of Shootaboyz will outshoot a handful of marines on average, several times.

My marines have reliably outshot the orks on many occasions. If this offends you, ignore it as a statistical improbability, but i've had other people comment on it, so it's not just me. I can't shoot for feth with my boyz, and my dice like my SM when i'm shooting. The guys at the FLGS have noticed this and have commented on it.

If they are more likely to hit their average than the marines, then well and good. I don't particularly care. I'll concede the point (i'm pretty sure i already have in one of the two threads) for Shootaboyz,

The real point is that i said that if i wanted reliability i would use my SM. For me, they are more reliable. I consistently hit their average or better amount of times.


I said that Random and Erratic are more of an ork thing. I specified that the comment was made about bikers in general (who will be outshot by equal points of marines, but that's beside the point) and about Orks in general being more Random and Erratic.

I cited fluff and examples of Random-effect units.

I don't particularly give a feth about the math from a unit of shootaboys being more reliable than the marines, as i've already agreed MULTIPLE times that the orks will hit more, on average.

Try it again with sluggaboyz, or Nobs at even points, or for that matter practically ANY unit in the ork codex BUT shootaboyz, and then tell me that orks, as an army, are more reliable. The only time it really works is when you have massively more shots than the equivilent on the other side. Most ork units don't. Shootaboyz do. Bully for them! They aren't the be all and end all of the ork codex.


30 Sluggaboyz shoot 30 shots, and hit with 10, even points SM as listed above shoot 23 times, and hit 15 (we'll ignore the .2)

Once you get to the rolls to wound and armour saves the orks ditch efficiency fast. Those 20 shoota hits from your example will wound 10 times, and maybe kill 3 marines (on average) after armour saves.. Their 15.2 hits will wound a few less, but every hit that wounds will be a killshot. I'd say the marines were still the more reliable unit.

The point i was trying to make is not that one unit can be consistently better mathematically at shooting than Tac Marines, but that the codex as a whole is more prone to random effects and events, and the playstyle is therefore more erratic, as you can't accurately predict what the units with the random effects are going to do that turn.

But everyone still has to return only to the math-hammer

You could argue that Nids as a whole are more reliable than anyone, as Devgaunts kick out 90 shots a round per unit. That's what returning only to shootaboyz shooting stats is arguing, vs SM. Taking the whole codex into account, i'd still stand my ground on my statement that I will use Marines when I want reliability, and Orks when I want Random and Erratic.

Certainly Orks have a lot of other random rules.

And overall most Ork units aren't great at shooting.

But the original point being discussed in the original thread was the reliability of shooting by units which throw lots of dice. That's the only reason I've come back to that point.

The original point being discussed was that if i wanted reliable i would use marines, and that random/erratic is more of an ork thing.

I was netscreamed at that it was COMPLETELY FALSE, and spent the rest of the 'debate' until i got tired of being patronized and insulted attempting to argue that Orks as a whole are better at erratic and random stuff, not just the mathhammer between Shootaboyz and Tacs.

Issy got hung up on the Law of Large Numbers and the Shootaboyz vs Tacmarines. I've conceded that on average the tac marines will hit less (though they may kill more with those hits). If The orks are more prone to getting their average results due to large numbers of rolls, then well and good. He was the one raising the same point over and over again about the efficiency of units that roll a lot of dice. I've agreed that they will roll closer to the mean than smaller units.

It doesn't generally work that way for ME. I didn't say it doesn't work for everyone as far as i recall, just that it doesn't end up like that for me.

Dude, caps are for starting sentences..

The caps in COMPLETELY FALSE were referencing the answer to my statement in the other thread. He used all caps, so in quoting him so did I

Touché

Orks are so random it's durpy.