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purplefood wrote:But i stand by what my dad taught me. Point beats edge...
I bring up another concept-- the naginata. Designed for wide sweeping attacks, it's meant to keep enemies at a distance. A naginata master would not let a rapier user get within thrusting distance to begin with, through maneuvering and the reach of their weapon.
Not everything is the clash of blade vs blade, a lot of it is footwork.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
purplefood wrote:But i stand by what my dad taught me. Point beats edge...
I bring up another concept-- the naginata. Designed for wide sweeping attacks, it's meant to keep enemies at a distance. A naginata master would not let a rapier user get within thrusting distance to begin with, through maneuvering and the reach of their weapon.
Not everything is the clash of blade vs blade, a lot of it is footwork.
While true, I would assume that a Zwei-hander would be able to get past a Naginata, just because someone with the strength to use one would be able just to smash it to the side.
Would I be correct in that assumption, do you think?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/09 02:31:14
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
Really, the way people wield light sabres makes no sense. They swing the things around in great arcs, bringing them down onto their targets with great force behind them. Given the blades of these things can effortlessly slice through armour, let along human flesh, there's no need to get any force behind the swing. And more so, the weapon is basically weightless, so you can change the angle and nature of the swing almost instantly, and yet instead they swing in these great arcs.
Basically all this is because, like the first reply said, it looks better on camera to have these massive swinging glowsticks.
Melissia wrote:Actually there is a style designed on fencing.
And is actually the only form of fencing where you can score a point with the edge of the blade in addition to the tip.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/09 02:39:03
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
I think a problem with the naginata would be if you swung to far...
It'd allow a swordsman to step in and gut you before you could prepare another swing...
That and you'd tire fairly quickly swinging it to keep the swodsman back...
If you didn't end the fight quickly a competant swordsman could outlast a naginata user of similar skill...
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prime12357 wrote:As a fencer, I can attest to this. In combat, economy of motion is key. It is much easier to simply poke at someone than to try to swing something into them. It's why spears and the like were always much more effective than other weapons. length aside, it's easier to stab someone than to cut them, and more often fatal.
Of course, it does look much more impressive on screen to have two blokes swinging glowing light sticks around at each other than have them engage in classical fencing style combat.
Pretty much, fencing is a very skillful, and fascinating sport when you know what's going on, but to the layman it's not really a visual feast.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
purplefood wrote:I think a problem with the naginata would be if you swung to far...
A newbie mistake.
It's like saying "if you thrust too hard and the opponent dodges you're open for attack". Or that "if you have to reload with a firearm you're at a disadvantage".
Of course you are. Duh.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/03/09 02:43:23
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Nothing in Star Wars is logical, it's all done for the sake of looking "cool."
I don't think fencing would perform very well outside of duels. Sweeping strikes against multiple opponents would seem superior and the majority of a Jedi or Sith's fighting would be against individuals who couldn't defend against a lightsaber.
Actually the greatest swordsmen of the jedi often switched between styles as necessary.
Because I'm a nerd, I'll give a summary of the styles:
Form 1: Shii-Cho, the Way of the Sarlaac A simplistic form, similar to basic kendo in a sense. It is focused on endurance and adaptation more than style, and has very effective blast deflection ability because of this. It is not designed for lightsaber to lightsaber combat, however. Its most famous moves were a wide sweeping attack and a disarming maneuver. All Jedi usually knew this.
Form 2: Makashi, the Way of the Ysalamiri A more complex usually one-handed form, for dueling. It is focused on footwork, swift strikes and thrusts, and deft maneuverability and economy of motion as opposed to raw power. It is designed specifically for lightsaber on lightsaber combat and has a bit of a disadvantage against massed lightsaber fire, and didn't have the raw strength to hold out against a skilled opponent of a more aggressive style. Its most famous moves were riposte style moves. Count Dooku was the premier practitioner.
Form 3: Soresu, the Way of the Mynock A highly defensive style which had even more focus on economy of motion, keeping the blade close to the body with swift motions to deflect both lightsabers and blaster shots. It was a perfect defense, which wore the enemy down waiting for them to leave themselves open to counter-attack-- but had almost no focus on offense, so those who wanted to go on the offense after wearing one's opponent down went to a different form, usually two or four. Obi-Wan Kenobi was the premier practitioner.
Form 4: Ataru, the Way of the Hawk-Bat A highly acrobatic style which made swift use of force powers and force enhancement to make the user move faster and move unpredictably. It was highly effective against single opponents and had a very rapid movement style. It had weaknesses against multiple opponents and wasn't as focused on blaster defense (defense was focused on mobility) as forms 1 or 3. Master Yoda was the premier practitioner.
Form 5: Shien / Djem So, the Way of the Krayt Dragon A form almost like a combination of forms 2 and 3, focused on parrying and counterstriking, as well as power attacks to knock an opponent off guard. It was derived from form 3 practitioners who wanted a more offensive style. It was effective against multiple opponents, but somewhat weak in a duel. The Djem So variant was known for its lack of mobiltiy, bringing it as a direct contrast to form 4. Aayla Secura was probably the most well known of form 4's practitioners, although Darth Vader also used a far more aggressive form of it.
Form 6: Niman, the way of the Rancor A moderate form, taking in the styles of all the previous forms and melding them together. Described as a style with no weaknesses or strengths, and a style that is fairly easy to maintain, thus earning its second name, the diplomat's form. It covered a lot of basic moves and did not leave its practitioners open like the more aggressive styles of forms 2 and 4, but was more offensive than forms 3 and 5. To make up for its lack of specializations, its practitioners often made heavy use of force powers in combat, as the style was simple and thus allowed greater concentration. A lot of Jedi were practitioners during the clone wars (And it was all but wiped out during it even compared to the other style).
Form 7: Juyo / Vapaad, the Way of the Vornskr The final form(s), these were as much spiritual as they were styles. Highly aggressive, they involved letting oneself enjoy the combat, slipping in to the penumbra between the light and dark sides of the force. Its force-enhanced power was able to overwhelm most other styles, and the body acted faster than the mind could think, so that its strokes were lightning fast. It's essentially the ultimate Jedi fighting form, but most of its users ended up falling to the dark side completely, which weakens the form. Its premier practitioners were Mace Windu and Darth Maul. Mace Windu was the only one who truly mastered this.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/03/09 03:18:56
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Um, generally Forms 1 and 2 are no longer in use, having been completely supplanted by Form 3. Niman is general not favored by Jedi and seen as a Sith form by most while Juyo is considered very dangerous for Jedi and not very commonly used by the Sith.
Form 1 is actually used quite often though, because it is an excellent way to train those who haven't ever wielded a lightsabe. Niman is most assuredly NOT seen as a sith form-- you're thinking of Juyo/Vapaad.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/03/09 03:26:45
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Anyways, now that I think about it, it's really impossible to compare a near weightless weapon with 1-2 metres of "sharp" edges to a slightly heavier weapon that can only damage with the point.
I just can't picture a lightaber duel done fencing, even after watching fencing videos.
It could be done, but it would be different from any fencing style known to modern times.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
MrMerlin wrote:Been thinking about lightsabres lately. When you see someone fight with them, they're alway dealing blows from the side or top, as if they were using a healy broad sword or a cleaver. Not an extremely light-weight weapon. Wouldnt it be much more effectice to fence with them, poking at your enemy?
I'm not a sword fighting expert, and there are soooo many unlogical things in Star wars that this really shouldnt matter, but I cant whatch starwars anymore without thinking about that. Argh!
What do you think?
It'd called a light SABRE not a light FOIL.
Hacking is what one does with a sabre. Although stabbing also works. Emokin does it often enough.
It's also ILLOGICAL not "un"logical.
I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.
That is not dead which can eternal lie ...
... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
Actually there is such a thing as a lightfoil. It's often used with form 2 Makashi practitioners.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/09 03:59:50
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Problem is damage per hit. Yeah, it would be light and therefore easy to stab, however there are few stab wounds that are immediately fatal or debilitating, especially with a weapon that would theoretically instantly cauterize whatever wound it would make. If you're thrusting, then head/neck/small areas of the chest are really your only targets for quick kills or disables. When you slash, you can take off an arm, leg, whathaveyou and have more options for attack.
Furthermore, I've always assumed it's a bit more like a martial-art where the movements are ritualized and fluid than a sword fighting technique. This is only because of it being used to reflect blaster shots and the muscle memory required to be able to react that quickly and reflect shots well.
Shrike325 wrote:Furthermore, I've always assumed it's a bit more like a martial-art where the movements are ritualized and fluid than a sword fighting technique. This is only because of it being used to reflect blaster shots and the muscle memory required to be able to react that quickly and reflect shots well.
Not necessarily.
There is an old beleif amongst the Samuri that a truely skilled warrior can feel the battlefeild "Before it happens", and act accordingly, seeing incoming blows before they are even "launched", so to speak.
Lucas based the Jedi off of the Samuri, so he could have incorperated this sort of dealio into it.
Kind of like this (Yes, I know it's a movie, and a so-so one at that, but it's still a good example):
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/09 04:16:43
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
It IS also a matter of reaction time. Jedi have very fast reaction times.
But it's not just that. The ones in tune with the force can let th force guide them to block such shots similar to how it was described above.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Melissia wrote:It IS also a matter of reaction time. Jedi have very fast reaction times.
But it's not just that. The ones in tune with the force can let th force guide them to block such shots similar to how it was described above.
So Luke was just THAT in tune with the force that he could deflect the blaster shots without being able to see them? (On the ship, when Obi Wan was training him).
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
Normally that kind of tuning would take years to perfect.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/09 04:27:14
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
The phenomena isn't just a Samurai tradition. Its a side effect of experience that has been noted. Once you've been in enough fights, training or otherwise, you start to get a feel for how things will go and can predict what happens before it happens.
Amaya wrote:Nothing in Star Wars is logical, it's all done for the sake of looking "cool."
True.
I don't think fencing would perform very well outside of duels. Sweeping strikes against multiple opponents would seem superior and the majority of a Jedi or Sith's fighting would be against individuals who couldn't defend against a lightsaber.
In a greater combat lunges and thrusts are still essential, and that'd only be more so if you have something as lethal as a lightsabre. Instead of a great sweeping swing to cut a droid in half, just a quick thrust direct at the heart, and you move on to the next target in a fraction of the time.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
However, a great sweeping swing could cut several droids in half.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
chromedog wrote:It'd called a light SABRE not a light FOIL.
Hacking is what one does with a sabre.
Some sabres were purely hacking and slashing weapons, but many, especially later sabres, had pointed edges as well.
In fencing the sabre allows points to be scored either with the tip or the blade.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/09 05:33:54
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Lightsabres in the canon sense were shown to have gyroscopic movement, that is, the stylized movement of the sabre would be used in accordance with the balance of the weapon. Thus you could chain attacks into defense and essentially block shots.
So instead of just staying stationary, a lightsaber would be naturally unbalanced, moving when put on the floor or a table. I believe you do see some thrusting in the clone wars cartoons. However, this would be counter-intuitive.
Shrike325 wrote:Problem is damage per hit. Yeah, it would be light and therefore easy to stab, however there are few stab wounds that are immediately fatal or debilitating, especially with a weapon that would theoretically instantly cauterize whatever wound it would make. If you're thrusting, then head/neck/small areas of the chest are really your only targets for quick kills or disables. When you slash, you can take off an arm, leg, whathaveyou and have more options for attack..
Except the blade of a lightsabre is pretty damn thick. Push that thing into someone's chest and you're going to go through a couple of organs, shove it into a limb and that limb is gone forever.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LordofHats wrote:Wait, different weapons are used in fencing? Can one person use a saber while his opponent uses a foil?
There's three different fencing styles. Foil, sabre and epee.
Foil is about lunging, hitting the opponent's centre torso. Sabre allows scoring with the edge as well as the point, and you can score by striking anywhere above the waist. Epee is like the foil in that only strikes with the tip count, but the whole body can be targetted, and it doesn't worry about who has right of way in the event of both combatants striking simultaneously, they both get a point.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote:However, a great sweeping swing could cut several droids in half.
As long at the drods happen to all stand next to each other. Even when Star Wars contrives to have this happen you only get two droids next to each other, because anymore would be farcical.
Meanwhile, most of the time they're just using those big swinging arcs to dispatch a single opponent, when a quick thrust would do the job. Which is because, as everyone has pretty much agreed,
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/03/09 07:15:49
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
The thing with lightsabres is, any part of the blade is deadly. So really, whatever style makes you hit them more with the blade, is the best style for fighting with. (Not just the tip)
Also, as far as just stabbing a droid goes. The problem with that is, you might not hit the right spot to completely deactivate them and if you just stab in to them, you have to pull it back out or make another silly motion to get the blade out.
Or.
You could just make one swing at them, cut clean through them and move on.
" -KingCracker
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