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Here's something to ponder - if computers and computer gaming can be considered a 'fad' at this point, can wargames and RPGs also be considered a 'fad'?

Infinite array makes a good point.

Mass Produced personal computers capable gaming have been with us longer than warhammer 40k. If computer gaming is a fad, then so is 40k.

Personally, I think that neither Computer gaming or Wargaming is -on the whole- a fad. Certain games within of those catagories may have bumps in popularity that give "fad" status for a while, but both types of gaming have been with us for a long time and will continue for a long time to come.

Zinderneuf wrote:

Rayvon wrote:Compter games will always be more popular becuase they removed the need to think in order to play most of them compared to a tabletop wargame, therefor imo the market for video games will always be much larger.

Well, these responses have forced me to reevaluate my position somewhat, but only somewhat.

Yes, I am sure sales of video games are larger by an order of magnitude, but when I'm talking about GAMERS, I guess I'm really talking about nutty folks like us who are willing to sit down with teeny tiny toy soldiers, and paint the damn things, read exhaustively over-written rulebooks, and then spend hours pushing them around a table, all in the name of what we call fun, and what ordinary humans would call torture.

But, certainly, not all video gamers are cut from that bolt of cloth. I'd guess that a very large percentage of these are not people who would be reading Osprey books or buying ooo paint brushes if there were no video games. Most such would be playing pinball or foos ball.

I guess I'm really asking about the nerdy, 'order of the stick' GAMER crowd, who have been drawn off by WOW.

That make any better sense?

As computer RPGs get more sophisticated over time you will see them begin to dominate the way people play games like DnD. It isn't a fad it is the future. Will there still be people playing with pen and paper? Of ocurse but as new generations become more and more familiar and comfortable with technology people like that will be a smaller and smaller part of the overall gaming community. World of Warcraft is already doing this so that pretty much answers your question for you I think.

You used Everquest as an example but that is nothing compared to World of Warcraft.


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infinite_array wrote:Here's something to ponder - if computers and computer gaming can be considered a 'fad' at this point, can wargames and RPGs also be considered a 'fad'?

I would say neither one is a fad. There is a difference between fad and niche. Computer games are as main stream as you can get while RPGs are still niche.

Rayvon wrote:wow, call of duty and battlfield do not require as much thought as playing a tabletop war game, and i still stand by that.

Evidently you don't play much Battlefield or WoW, or you'd have some wonderful memories of having your ass handed to you in AB or Tehran by a bunch of guys with the same squiggles after their name. High level play of each requires a hell of a lot of skill and coordination between large groups of players, as compared to Fantasy or 40k where true high level play is frankly impossible due to serious balance issues.

Rayvon wrote:
Also i think 40k was a bit of a bad example, there are lots of different wargaming rulesets and not all are watered down as much as that one.

Yeah, 40k is really considered a beer and pretzels wargame. Try some of the old GDW titles for something complex and tactical.

Seeing as the Gaming industry grosses more on a year basis then the movie industry and music industry combined, im pretty sure it's more than a passing fad >.>

That and the fact that as others have mentioned gaming covers everything from a little casual entertainment to a deep in-depth strategy; twitch gaming to turn based thought provoking games - far more depth than TTG.

Finally, there's the time requirement. I can sit at the pc and enjoy a 30min gaming blast, i cannot setup a game and play through 6 turns in 30mins ^^

In my experience, the worst people are 'gamers' weather they be table top games, video gamerz, etc etc

Everything else has been said better then I ever could.

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:
In my experience, the worst people are 'gamers' weather they be table top games, video gamerz, etc etc

Everything else has been said better then I ever could.

I think if you put competitive in front of gamers, then you are bang on.
Obviously not every one falls into this category but how angry some people get when they lose a game always amazes me.

Rayvon wrote:

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:
In my experience, the worst people are 'gamers' weather they be table top games, video gamerz, etc etc

Everything else has been said better then I ever could.

I think if you put competitive in front of gamers, then you are bang on.
Obviously not every one falls into this category but how angry some people get when they lose a game always amazes me.

I believe it was rather late, that was my intent, people who don't play the spirit of the game of break and abuse it for a unfair advantage. As usually someone says it better then myself.

Computer games are the future of gaming for the mainstream folks. This next step from this are going to be the next generation of superior game apps that will be played on your smart phone, tablet, etc.

I've already seen the future. The 2012 Game Developer's Conference just finished last week.

But. there will always be board games and people will continue to play board games, so I believe that there is room for both types of markets to coexist for years down the road.

Personally I played Vassal for a while which is basically wargaming with a computer. As for thought, yes you can play CoD on the lowest difficulty and use nothing but a knife and win against the computer, but you have to be playing the technologically inept to beat human players. (My dad just hits buttons on the controller until he manages to throw a grenade at his feet and kill himself.....)

When you get into the higher levels of play in nearly any computer game you get people who analyse pretty much everything, much like it is in TT with Mathhammer and etc.

I also see computer games encroaching on the territory of RPGs (DnD 4th edition) as the makers make a game more like the computer games to bring in more people.

When it comes to 40k and other similar tabletop games I think the appeal is more about the physical aspect. Kind of how I really want to own an entire Napoleonic era British Highlander regiment, or the entire Dark Angels chapter.

But, I can use all of those things in a wargaming simulator such as the Total War series quickly, it's more interactive, and I can always find a human opponent whenever I want a game.

This is something I'd expect to see on the cover of Wizard magazine in 1986. Snarkiness aside, I think it's pretty clear that miniatures wargaming and computer gaming can live in peace. There have been alternatives for the two big tabletop games for years: wargames with real time and turn based strategy games, and RPGs with MMOs and traditional CRPGS. I've gladly enjoyed both the digital and physical, as have many others. I wouldn't worry about it.

Sidstyler wrote:I refuse to take this thread topic seriously. Are you really asking us if computer gaming is a passing fad?

It's been around for at least 3-4 decades. No, I don't think it's "just a fad", and I really don't see everyone getting bored with it and flocking back to tabletop RPGs and boardgames in a year or two.

This.

Rayvon wrote:

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:
In my experience, the worst people are 'gamers' weather they be table top games, video gamerz, etc etc

Everything else has been said better then I ever could.

I think if you put competitive in front of gamers, then you are bang on.
Obviously not every one falls into this category but how angry some people get when they lose a game always amazes me.

Yeah, the competitive types who wrap their whole egos up in their tabletop victories can be a bit trying.

Rayvon wrote:

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:
In my experience, the worst people are 'gamers' weather they be table top games, video gamerz, etc etc

Everything else has been said better then I ever could.

I think if you put competitive in front of gamers, then you are bang on.
Obviously not every one falls into this category but how angry some people get when they lose a game always amazes me.

My roommate tried playing DoTA style games for a while, me and his fiance had to convince him to quit because the community of those games was one of the most obscene things I have ever seen. They were absolutely vile, screaming at you and kicking you from the game if you didn't play like a professional (these were in pick up "noob" games, mind you).

I'm starting to think a good percentage of online gamers probably need to see a therapist on a weekly basis at this point.

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:
In my experience, the worst people are 'gamers' weather they be table top games, video gamerz, etc etc

Everything else has been said better then I ever could.

Can someone please tell me an experience where videogamers/table top gamers have rioted, burned down half a city over a game? Tried to murder players on the field? Along with tournament organizers?

Because if you cannot, than Sports Fans are still the worst.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:
In my experience, the worst people are 'gamers' weather they be table top games, video gamerz, etc etc

Everything else has been said better then I ever could.

Can someone please tell me an experience where videogamers/table top gamers have rioted, burned down half a city over a game? Tried to murder players on the field? Along with tournament organizers?

Because if you cannot, than Sports Fans are still the worst.

I would say that it is not sports fans, so much as it is socially maladjusted and entirely unintelligent witches that are the worst.

donkey-cave is a disease that transcends medium.

Being an avid gamer as well as a wargames hobbyist. I would like to share my experiense as WoW raid leader. The time, preparation, skill, knowledge, and patience it takes to actively command and dictate the movements of up to 20+ people is a huge smack in the face of "video games require no thought" I recall plenty of times where I would have to explain how fights went, placements, dictating the flow of battle in regards to spiking abilities or slowing damage so the tanks can get their aggro tables back, or managing the healers and off healers. I can assure you turning your mind off turns into a wipe, which turns into many many wasted late night hours and patience. This style of play requires attention and thought from all participants and certainly does not allow, bar rangers of course :p, for "Cruise control"

Emerett wrote:
I'm starting to think a good percentage of online gamers probably need to see a therapist on a weekly basis at this point.

A lot of it has to do with what game you're playing, the pace of the game, and the number of people in it. For instance, I haven't had my sexuality questioned by a 13 year old since I stopped playing Call of Duty games, while a Battlefield 3 game is big enough that if I either screw up a lot or totally steamroll everybody, it's so big that most people won't really notice. Meanwhile, in a slower game like Dawn of War II, the playerbase tends (well, tended) to be a bit more polite because everything wasn't constantly happening all the time. Yeah, there'd still be the occasional asshat, but generally the community was very polite.

Computer games are definitely a fad they bring in billions of dollars a year but soon they will just stop and our economies will stabilize while people find better things to spend money on and have more time to work. Eventually we will be the last people to needlessly spend our money on games and we will will still be proud of it.

kur0n wrote:Computer games are definitely a fad they bring in billions of dollars a year but soon they will just stop and our economies will stabilize while people find better things to spend money on and have more time to work. Eventually we will be the last people to needlessly spend our money on games and we will will still be proud of it.

The video game industry was incedibly strong before the economy went to gak, there's no reason it'll fall apart when the economy improves. Video games have been around for what, 30 years? That's a longass fad.

I don't know where I would be WITHOUT video games. Getting together a tabletop game requires me to find a day where everybody is open, then you spend some time talking and eating, building army lists, then a good 3-4 hours of gaming. Comparatively, I can plug into xbox live or steam and get into games that may last 20-30 minutes.

I love to play tabletop games, but I can't do more than 2 a week. Computer gaming is something I can do just before work, right after I get home from school, anytime.

It also allows me to connect with friends who don't like tabletop games or people I met while traveling and obviously can't see in person.

Not a fad. Not going away.