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The fact that you can use rending to do anything at all to anything higher than AV11 is still the most worrying part of it. Suddenly you're penning rhinos and chimeras, slapping eldar and marine vehicles around, taking weapons off of land raiders, etc.

@Darknesseternal - I don't think you quite understand the concept of, "Some things are not worth the points you pay for them," even though you seem to have, "Some things are OP!" down quite nicely. I suggest you re-examine your internal logic on these matters; weighing in to say "lol you guize are all wrong and this is bad stop trying to have fun" is not constructive or appreciated.

@luna - 2 Termies are not an attractive shot for a demolisher round. If all you've got left is 2 termies on the board vs your various lrbt's, here's what we get

Blast: 2 hits, 1.83w, ~.12 unsaved.

Punisher: 10 hits, 6.6r wounds, 1.1r unsaved.

However, once you factor in those 30 extra points also buy you plasma sponsons;

3 more hits
2.4r more wounds,
.either .8 additional unsaved wounds (if 3++) or 1.6 unsaved (if 5++).

So you're looking at .9-1.7 compared to 1.1, before frontmounted hbolter or flamer is factored.

And against more terminators, the results get worse in favor of the regular.

And the regular LR is so much better against everything else, too.

Personally I think it should have had rending and at least AP 6. It feels like it's meant to be like the Assault Cannon, but rather than pack the same punch it just throws more at once.

Though it may have made sense to give it the same stats as the Assault Cannon and just cut down the shots to maybe 10.

I will concede that numbers say Punisher 1 Kill vs LRMBT 0 Kills in that scenario

But, The Punished has to be at 1/3 the range of the LRMBT, at that range, the Demolisher scores the same kills with a higher chance.

All I am saying is that considering the the Punisher is suppose to be this king of anti-infantry, it is matched or out done by more versatile, cheaper options.

chrisrawr wrote:@luna - 2 Termies are not an attractive shot for a demolisher round. If all you've got left is 2 termies on the board vs your various lrbt's, here's what we get

Why do you guys keep changing the load out -_-?
the load out i was responding to Battle Cannon not demolisher.

But if you want to, that is fine too. Because of demolisher's range, sometimes they dont have much to pick from anyways.
2 termies are fine too!

The Mad Tanker wrote:I will concede that numbers say Punisher 1 Kill vs LRMBT 0 Kills in that scenario

But, The Punished has to be at 1/3 the range of the LRMBT, at that range, the Demolisher scores the same kills with a higher chance.

All I am saying is that considering the the Punisher is suppose to be this king of anti-infantry, it is matched or out done by more versatile, cheaper options.

I know, but adding rending is beyond anti infantry. Because even assault cannon volley can take out a Land Raider

Just a thought, what if it was str 6 ap - and either added 12 inches to the range or was heavy 25?

That would ID t3, a good porton of hordes, and make for a more useful tank.

UMGuy wrote:Just a thought, what if it was str 6 ap - and either added 12 inches to the range or was heavy 25?

That would ID t3, a good porton of hordes, and make for a more useful tank.

That would be fair. How about for 6s rolled for wounding, they get additional wound?

Sort of like the hybrid of old eldar biting blade + tesla weapons

LunaHound wrote:

The Mad Tanker wrote:I will concede that numbers say Punisher 1 Kill vs LRMBT 0 Kills in that scenario

But, The Punished has to be at 1/3 the range of the LRMBT, at that range, the Demolisher scores the same kills with a higher chance.

All I am saying is that considering the the Punisher is suppose to be this king of anti-infantry, it is matched or out done by more versatile, cheaper options.

I know, but adding rending is beyond anti infantry. Because even assault cannon volley can take out a Land Raider

I can see the increase in usefulness against vehicles as an issue, perhaps let it ignore armor saves on a roll of 6, but no extra dice for armor penetration.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LunaHound wrote:

UMGuy wrote:Just a thought, what if it was str 6 ap - and either added 12 inches to the range or was heavy 25?

That would ID t3, a good porton of hordes, and make for a more useful tank.

That would be fair. How about for 6s rolled for wounding, they get additional wound?

Sort of like the hybrid of old eldar biting blade + tesla weapons

Or this, I can dig this

I like that for 6s rolled they get an additional wound. That makes sense, cause the way I always thought of the punisher was a ton of rounds down range, not really armor piercing rounds, just a lot of them.

Sorry luna, meant to say battle cannon. Demolisher was a miswording.

@S6; Seems alright until you look at what it's giving you against MCs. Glancing Wave Skimmers is also something I'd be wary about, as well as the fact that it now becomes almost impossible to NOT kill AV11 with it, despite the AP -.

To-Wound of 6 being an additional wound is almost exactly what is needed - You're hurting MC's a bit much (maybe an automatic hit on to-wound of 6, allowing you to roll additionally but not guaranteeing extra wounds, and no additional wounds generated?) but as-is that's more of a niche.

Against GEQ you get

10 Hits
8.3r wounds
+1.38r wounds.
x.6r
~6.5 wounds on average. If you go ahead and twinlink that you get an additional 3.25, for 9.75 wounds on average. It's still only 50 points per turn, but against Orks,

15 hits
10 Wound
1.6r extra wounds
x.83r
~9.75 wounds. Again

So practically useful now, though still NOT worth the 30 points over the lrbt.

Finally, pop the points down to 150. It now makes up its points in 3 turns against Orks or Guard (with no cover), gets a tiny bit of oomph against MEQ and Monstrous, and remains as a secondary anti light-armour option. Most importantly, it's an actual ALTERNATIVE to the LRBT with Battle Cannon, rather than a no-brainer not-choice.

Last week my Orks mobs in 4+ cover lost 10 models a turn to One of these bastardos. Remember it has a hull Heavy Bolter in your calculations. I finally was able to immobilize and remove it's weapons, but never kill it:(.

Even so, I think it should have rending but maybe a special Overheat rule which somehow prevents it from firing next turn. Like normally it's not Rending but you can choose Rending ammo for a turn which overheats the barrel and prevents the gun from firing next turn? A trade off? Can you tell I'm an Ork player?

People over-estimate the vanilla Russ's ability to kill MEQ. Assuming 4+ cover and a ~50% chance of hitting, you're looking at 4 under the template for each kill, which is pretty rare. So the Punisher already beats it.

Joey wrote:People over-estimate the vanilla Russ's ability to kill MEQ. Assuming 4+ cover and a ~50% chance of hitting, you're looking at 4 under the template for each kill, which is pretty rare. So the Punisher already beats it.

The LRBT also has a 72" range, S8 and AP3, which threatens a much larger area than the Punisher ever could, turning it into a much more powerful area denial weapon that can also damage vehicles if there's nothing else to go for (and yes, I know the Punisher is S5, but between that and AP- it's not going to be killing vehicles anytime soon).

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Joey wrote:People over-estimate the vanilla Russ's ability to kill MEQ. Assuming 4+ cover and a ~50% chance of hitting, you're looking at 4 under the template for each kill, which is pretty rare. So the Punisher already beats it.

The LRBT also has a 72" range, S8 and AP3, which threatens a much larger area than the Punisher ever could, turning it into a much more powerful area denial weapon that can also damage vehicles if there's nothing else to go for (and yes, I know the Punisher is S5, but between that and AP- it's not going to be killing vehicles anytime soon).

True, a vanlla Russ can handle light vehicles in a way that the Punisher can't, but it will rarely be used for this purpose.

Using a 32-directional 'scatter' simulation and 10 marines placed in 4+ cover in standard formations (deepstruck, deployed, line, spread-out line, spread-out blob, disembarked), we manage a rounded average of: 3.5 Marines, 2.5 Marines, 1.5 Marines, 1 Marine, 2 Marines, 2.5 Marines. Obviously, out of cover we double that.

This is compared to the standard ~2(.2) marines regardless (but at 1/3 the range) from the punisher.

chrisrawr wrote:Using a 32-directional 'scatter' simulation and 10 marines placed in 4+ cover in standard formations (deepstruck, deployed, line, spread-out line, spread-out blob, disembarked), we manage a rounded average of: 3.5 Marines, 2.5 Marines, 1.5 Marines, 1 Marine, 2 Marines, 2.5 Marines. Obviously, out of cover we double that.

10-man tactical squads don't stand around in a circle, they're in a line. 5 man squads possibly after deep-striking or disembarking, but then you're still looking at roughly 50:50.

You'll note that line was an option, resulting in 1 marine dying after cover. At 72", that's 1 to 0.

You could give it some distance variability.
-------------------------
36" STR:5 AP:- Hvy20

24" STR:5 AP:- Hvy30(25?)
-------------------------
Or

-------------------------
36" STR:5 AP:- Hvy20

24" STR:5 AP:- Hvy20, Rending
--------------------------


I don't like how short ranged it is given it's purpose is to mow down hordes and big bitey things. I guess it could also be balance by being cheaper, or having high back armor or some sort of anti assault thing.
Feels like it's no couple of Tesla Destructors though. But maybe it shouldn't be. I guess the dakka pred isn't too popular either though and that thing is nutty cheap. Comparing it to a squad of immortals is weird, but interesting when comparing their armies.