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rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:No it is immediately wrecked. Can you explode a wreck?

If you wreck at the beginning of an initiative step, you keep rolling to see if you explode it (for the rest of that step).
Which is why I asked.

I wish! Please someone tell me that's wrong but I'm pretty sure it's not. It really sucks when your scarabs perform over kill and a bunch of assault marines walk out and cut down your scarabs like a hot knife through butter! On the plus side if you position correctly and surround the vehicle you auto kill passengers inside the vehicle when it wrecks.

NecronLord3 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:He means a lot of people think that ES lowers AV and that is the end of the attack, they think there is no roll to Pen, which is incorrect.

There is no roll to pen if you reduce any one facing to 0.

There is if the attacks all occur at the same Initiative, since all CC attacks at any given Initiative step happen simultaneously.

DeathReaper wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:He means a lot of people think that ES lowers AV and that is the end of the attack, they think there is no roll to Pen, which is incorrect.

There is no roll to pen if you reduce any one facing to 0.

There is if the attacks all occur at the same Initiative, since all CC attacks at any given Initiative step happen simultaneously.

Immediately wrecked comes after the rolls to hit. Once wrecked you cannot do anything further to the vehicle. It doesn't matter if there is a lord in the combat as well as you calculate his hits along with the scarab hits and once wrecked combat ends. This is why DE vehicles cannot take inv saves against entropic strikes unless the vehicle had 1 or more points of armor on all sides, and then only against glance and pen results, not against the armor reduction.. You never cause a glance or penetration roll to occur once the armor is reduced to 0.

NecronLord3 wrote:Immediately wrecked comes after the rolls to hit. Once wrecked you cannot do anything further to the vehicle.

Immediately at Initiative 3.

Why are you not rolling to Pen with Initiative 3 attacks?

All CC attacks at any given Initiative step happen simultaneously.

DeathReaper wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:Immediately wrecked comes after the rolls to hit. Once wrecked you cannot do anything further to the vehicle.

Immediately at Initiative 3.

Why are you not rolling to Pen with Initiative 3 attacks?

All CC attacks at any given Initiative step happen simultaneously.

Initiative 3? Do you have Iniative 3 units in your codex because I don't. Perhaps you should be using the same codex as me.

No, at Iniative 2 if Scarabs roll enough entropic strikes to reduce 1 facing on a vehicle to 0 it is immediately is wrecked per the rules on entropic strike. You do not proceed to the next step because nothing in the game allows you to further damage a wrecked vehicle for any reason.

Perhaps the Initiative 3 was just to prove a point, I did not mention scarabs at all.

So scarabs make their attacks, do you make full attacks or stop 1/2 way through the Initiative step?

For example:

Scarabs hit 10 times on a Predator (AV 10 in the rear).

Scarabs roll for ES, 9 successes (Amazing feat, but it is just an example.

Scarabs roll for Armor Pen against AV 1 (Automatic pen as Str +D6 is always greater than 1)

9 rolls on the Damage chart, you only have 5 dice, you roll your 5 dice, results of 1,2,3,4,5

So you get a 5 thats a wreck, do you stop there? no, you roll 4 more dice 1,4,4,5,6 What do you know, Destroyed- Explodes instead of wrecked

This happens because all of the swings at the same initiative value are simultaneous.

Same applies if you had 10 successes on the vehicle, its wrecked at Initiative 2, and all hits are simultaneous, so you roll 10 times for Armor Pen, and then 10 times on the Damage chart.

DeathReaper wrote:Perhaps the Initiative 3 was just to prove a point, I did not mention scarabs at all.

So scarabs make their attacks, do you make full attacks or stop 1/2 way through the Initiative step?

For example:

Scarabs hit 10 times on a Predator (AV 10 in the rear).

Scarabs roll for ES, 9 successes (Amazing feat, but it is just an example.

Scarabs roll for Armor Pen against AV 1 (Automatic pen as Str +D6 is always greater than 1)

9 rolls on the Damage chart, you only have 5 dice, you roll your 5 dice, results of 1,2,3,4,5

So you get a 5 thats a wreck, do you stop there? no, you roll 4 more dice 1,4,4,5,6 What do you know, Destroyed- Explodes instead of wrecked

This happens because all of the swings at the same initiative value are simultaneous.

Same applies if you had 10 successes on the vehicle, its wrecked at Initiative 2, and all hits are simultaneous, so you roll 10 times for Armor Pen, and then 10 times on the Damage chart.

Ummm no. What you are describing is just not rolling all your dice at the same time. Which is fine, but all 9 rolls occur at the same time.

Entropic Strike takes effect at the to hit step. If you hit a vehicle 30 times(which is not hard with Scarabs) and roll a 4+ on even half of those you reduce a vehicle by 15 Armor points on all sides. That is enough to reduce every vehicle in the game to 0 armor on all sides the vehicle is then a immediately a Wreck. Per the BRB wrecks are treated as terrain. You cannot therefor roll armor penetration dice against the terrain. Any passengers get out before marking the vehicle as a wreck, if they cannot they are destroyed.

Hitting and armor penetration do not occur at the same time. And entropic Strike specifically introduce a step between the roll to hit and the roll to penetrate and describe what to immedeatly do when you reduce the armor to 0 at the Entropic Strike Step.

NecronLord3 wrote:...Which is fine, but all 9 rolls occur at the same time.

Entropic Strike takes effect at the to hit step...
Hitting and armor penetration do not occur at the same time...

Hitting and armor penetration do occur at the same time.

All strikes are resolved simultaneously for each initiative step.

You must figure out the effect of all of the swings, you can not just stop mid attack, since all swings at any given initiative strike simultaneously.

DeathReaper wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:...Which is fine, but all 9 rolls occur at the same time.

Entropic Strike takes effect at the to hit step...
Hitting and armor penetration do not occur at the same time...

Hitting and armor penetration do occur at the same time.

All strikes are resolved simultaneously for each initiative step.

You must figure out the effect of all of the swings, you can not just stop mid attack, since all swings at any given initiative strike simultaneously.

Except that the effects of Entropic strike interrupt that step specifically per the Codex and their rules. Immeidatly after rolling to hit you roll to reduce armor. Immediately after 1 side of the vehicle is reduces to 0 the vehicle is wrecked. You cannot further damage a wrecked vehicle.

NecronLord3 wrote:Except that the effects of Entropic strike interrupt that step specifically per the Codex and their rules. Immeidatly after rolling to hit you roll to reduce armor. Immediately after 1 side of the vehicle is reduces to 0 the vehicle is wrecked. You cannot further damage a wrecked vehicle.

Since you have wrecked it at Initiative 2, anyone at Initiative 1 would not be able to swing(attack), since the vehicle is wrecked.

The vehicle is not wrecked until midway through the initiative 2, as all swings(attacks) happen simultaneously.

So you must carry on with your attacks at initiative 2, since the vehicle is not wrecked until initiative 2, and all swings(attacks) happen at the same time.

DeathReaper wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:Except that the effects of Entropic strike interrupt that step specifically per the Codex and their rules. Immeidatly after rolling to hit you roll to reduce armor. Immediately after 1 side of the vehicle is reduces to 0 the vehicle is wrecked. You cannot further damage a wrecked vehicle.

Since you have wrecked it at Initiative 2, anyone at Initiative 1 would not be able to swing, since the vehicle is wrecked.

The vehicle is not wrecked until midway through the initiative 2, as all swings happen simultaneously.

So you must carry on with your attacks at initiative 2, since the vehicle is not wrecked until initiative 2, and all swings happen at the same time.

All swings were done prior to rolling for entropic strike. Done.

That still does not override the fact that all attacks occur simultaneously at any given initiative step.

Initiative steps have nothing to do with it. It is when you roll to hit. Hitting triggers Entropic strike, if entropic Strike reduces you to 0 on any side you are wrecked. Nothing further happens as you cannot further damage a wreck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Q: Do you roll to see if a hit with the Entropic Strike
special rule reduces a vehicle’s armour before rolling for
armour penetration? As all attacks at the same Initiative
are simultaneous, does this mean that other models
with the same Initiative will also roll to penetrate
against the reduced armour value? (p29)
A: Yes to both questions.

So the FaQ changed the rule then.

No problem it has happened before.

DeathReaper wrote:So the FaQ changed the rule then.

No problem it has happened before.

No it didn't but if it helps you to understand how Entropic Strike works more power to you. May I suggest you might want to do research on the FAQ's and codexes before arguing with people on the forums about rules questions?

NecronLord3 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:So the FaQ changed the rule then.

No problem it has happened before.

No it didn't but if it helps you to understand how Entropic Strike works more power to you. May I suggest you might want to do research on the FAQ's and codexes before arguing with people on the forums about rules questions?

Actually it did, since all strikes at a given initiative value are resolved simultaneously. This is shown by models that take saves, from different wound groups, are considered to happen at the same time. Like if a Apothecary in a unit takes a wound at I5 and you roll his save first and fail and then FNP roll, and fail that as well, other models that same I5 get to use the FNP because the model was killed at I5, and it is not until I4 that he is not around for models in his unit to use FNP, they get to use it at I5.

But that is neither here nor there.

May I suggest that I do look through FAQ's and Codexes, and do research, but must have missed that FaQ. It happens sometimes.

DeathReaper wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:So the FaQ changed the rule then.

No problem it has happened before.

No it didn't but if it helps you to understand how Entropic Strike works more power to you. May I suggest you might want to do research on the FAQ's and codexes before arguing with people on the forums about rules questions?

Actually it did, since all strikes at a given initiative value are resolved simultaneously. This is shown by models that take saves, from different wound groups, are considered to happen at the same time. Like if a Apothecary in a unit takes a wound at I5 and you roll his save first and fail and then FNP roll, and fail that as well, other models that same I5 get to use the FNP because the model was killed at I5, and it is not until I4 that he is not around for models in his unit to use FNP, they get to use it at I5.

But that is neither here nor there.

May I suggest that I do look through FAQ's and Codexes, and do research, but must have missed that FaQ. It happens sometimes.

Really no need to look for other rules since there is nothing like Entropic Game and the Entropic Strike rules spell things out more clearly than almost any other GW rule I've ever scene written since it actually uses the word "immediately" twice to describe the use of the rule.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Even though the wound is "unsaved" the model didn't "suffer it" if the FNP roll was successful as far as RAW.

Sure it did. Otherwise the model wouldn't roll the FNP in the first place.

That is just as much RAW, hence the heated discussion that the OP should find via the Search function.

Steelmage99 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Even though the wound is "unsaved" the model didn't "suffer it" if the FNP roll was successful as far as RAW.

Sure it did. Otherwise the model wouldn't roll the FNP in the first place.

That is just as much RAW, hence the heated discussion that the OP should find via the Search function.

Actually FNP creates a Paradox.

Before your roll for FNP the answer is yes the model suffered an unsaved wound.

After your roll for FNP, and pass, the answer is no the model did not suffer an unsaved wound.

Steelmage99 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Even though the wound is "unsaved" the model didn't "suffer it" if the FNP roll was successful as far as RAW.

Sure it did. Otherwise the model wouldn't roll the FNP in the first place.

That is just as much RAW, hence the heated discussion that the OP should find via the Search function.

Yes, after re-reading the OPs original post it's clear the the models lose the armor if you're playing RAW.

Models get to roll for FNP only if they "suffered an unsaved wound".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Even though the wound is "unsaved" the model didn't "suffer it" if the FNP roll was successful as far as RAW.

Sure it did. Otherwise the model wouldn't roll the FNP in the first place.

That is just as much RAW, hence the heated discussion that the OP should find via the Search function.

Actually FNP creates a Paradox.

Before your roll for FNP the answer is yes the model suffered an unsaved wound.

After your roll for FNP, and pass, the answer is no the model did not suffer an unsaved wound.

FNP is not a save.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Yes, after re-reading the OPs original post it's clear the the models lose the armor if you're playing RAW.

Models get to roll for FNP only if they "suffered an unsaved wound".

And to let ES trigger breaks the rule of FNP. If you let effects trigger off of wounds you are ignoring, then you are not ignoring those wounds, as FNP tells you to do.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Actually FNP creates a Paradox.

Before your roll for FNP the answer is yes the model suffered an unsaved wound.

After your roll for FNP, and pass, the answer is no the model did not suffer an unsaved wound.

FNP is not a save.

I know FNP is not a save, that still does not alter the fact that FNP creates a paradox.

DeathReaper wrote:
After your roll for FNP, and pass, the answer is no the model did not suffer an unsaved wound.

I know FNP is not a save, that still does not alter the fact that FNP creates a paradox.

Even if the model passes FNP the wound is still unsaved. The wound is just ignored. Doesn't that solve your paradox?

Nemesor Dave wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
After your roll for FNP, and pass, the answer is no the model did not suffer an unsaved wound.

I know FNP is not a save, that still does not alter the fact that FNP creates a paradox.

Even if the model passes FNP the wound is still unsaved. The wound is just ignored. Doesn't that solve your paradox?

If you're allowing ES to function, then obviously you have not ignored that wound.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Even if the model passes FNP the wound is still unsaved. The wound is just ignored. Doesn't that solve your paradox?

No, because, if we pay attention to the Unsaved wound, then we are not ignoring that wound, and breaking FNP's rule.

As rig said, if you allow ES to function then you have not ignored the wound.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
After your roll for FNP, and pass, the answer is no the model did not suffer an unsaved wound.

I know FNP is not a save, that still does not alter the fact that FNP creates a paradox.

Even if the model passes FNP the wound is still unsaved. The wound is just ignored. Doesn't that solve your paradox?

That is the way it should work but that is not the way GW has chosen to treat FNP.

The easiest way to look at it is if you pass your FNP roll, the wound never happened. This is GW applied logic to several other types of equipment like the Hexrifle. It is a paradox and there is plenty of reason to believe that it should work the other way. It just doesn't, no logic required GW has spoken.

NecronLord3 wrote:It just doesn't, no logic required GW has spoken.

Where did they speak?