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chaos0xomega wrote:Wow, New Jersey is the least corrupt... hows that for a big "feth you" to the other 49?

It probably means the study is, er, crap?

chaos0xomega wrote:Wow, New Jersey is the least corrupt... hows that for a big "feth you" to the other 49?

Its based on laws on the books... not how well the laws are followed I'd guess...

No, they just perceive their state as the least corrupt.

I don't need to get in to the reasoning behind this.

dogma wrote:

AustonT wrote:
Only if they love Jesus and vote Republican; otherwise they are godless socialists.

I wonder what the correlation is between playing Lacrosse, and voting Democrat.

All those sticks and balls, probably gets liberals all excited.

Only if the sticks and balls are equally distributed and heavily taxed.

AustonT wrote:

Melissia wrote:WEALTHY PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE TOO!

Only if they love Jesus and vote Republican; otherwise they are godless socialists.

I lol ed.

I wonder if there is anything like this for Corporations? How many employees at IBM, Wal-mart, etc took inappropriate gifts from vendors? Then I would like to compare that to states with an equal sized government payroll/headcount. That would be interesting.

Edit: I'm surprised my state got a D+. I thought it would do better.

Frazzled wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Wow, New Jersey is the least corrupt... hows that for a big "feth you" to the other 49?

It probably means the study is, er, crap?

Nah, it probably means everyone in NJ is too scared to 'rat' on their state...

/omerta

Joey wrote:

Blackskullandy wrote:

Joey wrote:Yeah but the US is a lot more corrupt than Northern European nations.

Got some data to back that up?

I thought it was common knowledge but anyway.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/dec/01/corruption-index-2011-transparency-international#data
USA- 7.1, UK 7.8, Germany 8.0, Sweden 9.3.
So yeah.

Well if you pick a few of the better performing European countries. Instead try looking at Spain, Greece or Italy. Oh dear, and some people think Eastern Europe is suspect.

WarOne wrote:The F’s went to North Dakota.

We are truely Fabulous!

"Corruption in the halls of power? Never have I heard such a thing."
"Don't get out much do you...."

Comedy aside I am surprised at NJ's topping of the list of least corrupted.

It's just perceived as such, not necessarily such in actuality.

Melissia wrote:Duh. We struggle every day to keep them from being corrupted, and don't always win.

But I think people who think their own nation is less corruptible than the US haven't really paid much attention to the corruption under their own roof.

Or they've actually done some reading on the subject, studying the key factors, and are aware that the US has basic cultural and systemic problems that are less common in other developed countries.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ahtman wrote:The US is also much more heavily populated and much larger than any Northern European nation as well. We have a lot more competing interests and a much less homogenous culture.

Size is a factor, but one that is controllable by properly defined scope, for the most part. Everyone has competing interests, and most nations have cultural diversity roughly on par with the US.

Really, what it comes down to is systemic issues (lack of accountability, lack of transparency, huge amounts of private funding in election campaigns) and culture (public officials elected to office in the US are often noted as having a do for me and I'll do for you attitude, compared to an attitude of acting first and foremost in the interests of the public).

But this is all an issue of extent, corruption is present in every country.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:Wow, New Jersey is the least corrupt... hows that for a big "feth you" to the other 49?

Maybe related to the big house cleaning NJ went through after the money laundering scheme was uncovered. The one where all those mayors and rabbis went to jail.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Easy E wrote:I wonder if there is anything like this for Corporations? How many employees at IBM, Wal-mart, etc took inappropriate gifts from vendors? Then I would like to compare that to states with an equal sized government payroll/headcount. That would be interesting.

There are, but mostly measures of how likely industries or companies from certain countries are to attempt to bribe others. I don't think I've ever seen a study on specific companies, and how likely those companies are to receive bribes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Howard A Treesong wrote:Well if you pick a few of the better performing European countries. Instead try looking at Spain, Greece or Italy. Oh dear, and some people think Eastern Europe is suspect.

I don't think you really want to be getting compared to third tier economies that were dictatorships within living memory like Spain and Greece for your corruption comparisons.

I mean, it's like a dude being told he lacks the recovery needed to maintain the training regime needed to become an Olympic athlete, and him pointing out he's got way better recovery than the 84 year old that lives two blocks down the road.

sebster wrote:Or they've actually done some reading on the subject, studying the key factors, and are aware that the US has basic cultural and systemic problems that are less common in other developed countries.

I'm not convinced this is the case.

Melissia wrote:

sebster wrote:Or they've actually done some reading on the subject, studying the key factors, and are aware that the US has basic cultural and systemic problems that are less common in other developed countries.

I'm not convinced this is the case.

Clearly someone not familiar with either NJ or Illinois.

I meant for the US as a whole, compared to quite a damned few countries which are more corrupt but have better ratings.

I call bs on the state poll.

I lived in Louisiana for 22 years and now in texas for the last 14. No way Louisiana is a C and Texas is a D. That's completely backwards. The local politicians in LA are as crooked as a chalkline laid down by a drunken, one-legged blind man.

Frazzled wrote:
Clearly someone not familiar with either NJ or Illinois.

Their justification for both scores are actually pretty sound.

Basically, the issues each state has had with political scandal have lead to significant reforms.

Of course, Illinois will always suffer from the issue of having 3/4 of its population in a relatively small metro area; meaning what everyone else wants is far less important.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Joey wrote:

Blackskullandy wrote:

Joey wrote:Yeah but the US is a lot more corrupt than Northern European nations.

Got some data to back that up?

I thought it was common knowledge but anyway.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/dec/01/corruption-index-2011-transparency-international#data
USA- 7.1, UK 7.8, Germany 8.0, Sweden 9.3.
So yeah.

Well if you pick a few of the better performing European countries. Instead try looking at Spain, Greece or Italy. Oh dear, and some people think Eastern Europe is suspect.

Southern Europe hasn't been well run for about 1,700 years. And the less said about Eastern Europe, the better.
Northern Europe, however, continues to lead the world in most aspects, including this one.

Zakiriel wrote:"Corruption in the halls of power? Never have I heard such a thing."
"Don't get out much do you...."

Comedy aside I am surprised at NJ's topping of the list of least corrupted.

"Corruption? What corruption? I've never seen any corruption around here."/wiseguy accent

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Joey wrote:

Blackskullandy wrote:

Joey wrote:Yeah but the US is a lot more corrupt than Northern European nations.

Got some data to back that up?

I thought it was common knowledge but anyway.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/dec/01/corruption-index-2011-transparency-international#data
USA- 7.1, UK 7.8, Germany 8.0, Sweden 9.3.
So yeah.

Well if you pick a few of the better performing European countries. Instead try looking at Spain, Greece or Italy. Oh dear, and some people think Eastern Europe is suspect.

You have an interesting opinion of what constitutes northern Europe.

Let me tell you this is CRAP the laws may not have teeth in some of those states but its because they aren't needed. In california things are corrupt as anything.

Those nations gonverments are corrupt and are over taxing the people because of unchallenged laws so they are corrupt just not according to a survey done by a group with a socialist slant.

kronk wrote:I call bs on the state poll.

I lived in Louisiana for 22 years and now in texas for the last 14. No way Louisiana is a C and Texas is a D. That's completely backwards. The local politicians in LA are as crooked as a chalkline laid down by a drunken, one-legged blind man.

yeah, because you know, not much can change in 14 years or anything >.>

as a NJ resident for the past 10 years or so, I would say that NJ is pretty well off in terms of corruption. Things have certainly improved in the past couple years since Chris Christie took office (hell when there was a 'scandal' because he used a gov't vehicle (helicopter I think) to make it to his sons baseball game or whatever, it turned out that he paid for the fuel and the time himself out of pocket or whatever).

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Joey wrote:

Blackskullandy wrote:

Joey wrote:Yeah but the US is a lot more corrupt than Northern European nations.

Got some data to back that up?

I thought it was common knowledge but anyway.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/dec/01/corruption-index-2011-transparency-international#data
USA- 7.1, UK 7.8, Germany 8.0, Sweden 9.3.
So yeah.

Well if you pick a few of the better performing European countries. Instead try looking at Spain, Greece or Italy. Oh dear, and some people think Eastern Europe is suspect.

None of those countries are in NORTHERN Europe...

In other news, Portugal is rated number #32? LOLWHAT? This gakky country is allot more corrupt than that!

chaos0xomega wrote:

kronk wrote:I call bs on the state poll.

I lived in Louisiana for 22 years and now in texas for the last 14. No way Louisiana is a C and Texas is a D. That's completely backwards. The local politicians in LA are as crooked as a chalkline laid down by a drunken, one-legged blind man.

yeah, because you know, not much can change in 14 years or anything >.>

Not in Louisiana.

captain collius wrote:Let me tell you this is CRAP the laws may not have teeth in some of those states but its because they aren't needed. In california things are corrupt as anything.

Those nations gonverments are corrupt and are over taxing the people because of unchallenged laws so they are corrupt just not according to a survey done by a group with a socialist slant.

Let me tell you, I agree wholeheartedly. Your obvious lack of sources supporting you, your complaint about anything disagreeing with you being biased and your rant against those dastardly socialists doesn't matter, because you obviously speak the truth! Woe to all who disagree, for the LORD hath spoken, and his name is Captain Collius. Look upon his words, he socialist rabble, and despair!

TL;DR: Wut? Get real!

captain collius wrote:Let me tell you this is CRAP the laws may not have teeth in some of those states but its because they aren't needed. In california things are corrupt as anything.

Those nations gonverments are corrupt and are over taxing the people because of unchallenged laws so they are corrupt just not according to a survey done by a group with a socialist slant.

Oh, this is priceless.

"Those governments are corrupt because only corrupt governments over-tax their people, and these nations clearly over-tax their people, therefore they are corrupt."

Bravo.

dogma wrote:

captain collius wrote:Let me tell you this is CRAP the laws may not have teeth in some of those states but its because they aren't needed. In california things are corrupt as anything.

Those nations gonverments are corrupt and are over taxing the people because of unchallenged laws so they are corrupt just not according to a survey done by a group with a socialist slant.

Oh, this is priceless.

"Those governments are corrupt because only corrupt governments over-tax their people, and these nations clearly over-tax their people, therefore they are corrupt."

Bravo.

Having lived in California, yea it is as corrupt as anywhere else.

Frazzled wrote:
Having lived in California, yea it is as corrupt as anywhere else.

I'm not objecting to that, because my general assessment is that corruption is fairly uniform across the US; at least using the standard definition of corruption.

I'm objecting to the idea that this survey has a socialist bias based on the notion that governments imposing high taxes must be corrupt.

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Having lived in California, yea it is as corrupt as anywhere else.

I'm not objecting to that, because my general assessment is that corruption is fairly uniform across the US; at least using the standard definition of corruption.

I'm objecting to the idea that this survey has a socialist bias based on the notion that governments imposing high taxes must be corrupt.

Gotcha.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:
Well if you pick a few of the better performing European countries. Instead try looking at Spain, Greece or Italy. Oh dear, and some people think Eastern Europe is suspect.

You have an interesting opinion of what constitutes northern Europe.

I'm aware of that, but northern Europe is a fairly small area in the overall picture of Europe. Several major countries with large economies score very badly for corruption. All three have been in the EU for a long time, Italy is a founding member, all three are in the Euro...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

captain collius wrote:Let me tell you this is CRAP the laws may not have teeth in some of those states but its because they aren't needed. In california things are corrupt as anything.

Those nations gonverments are corrupt and are over taxing the people because of unchallenged laws so they are corrupt just not according to a survey done by a group with a socialist slant.

Let me tell you, I agree wholeheartedly. Your obvious lack of sources supporting you, your complaint about anything disagreeing with you being biased and your rant against those dastardly socialists doesn't matter, because you obviously speak the truth! Woe to all who disagree, for the LORD hath spoken, and his name is Captain Collius. Look upon his words, he socialist rabble, and despair!

TL;DR: Wut? Get real!

okay examples lets begin

In denmark there is a 100% tax when you buy a car as well as a 25% sales tax. FACT
if you have even a basic understanding of economics you can see that this number is not necessary to runa country in fact it is detrimental to buisness.
My Friend is a psychologist her significant other is a Doctor neither cvan make enough to pay off their school loans and so must go out of the country on the weekend to work and make money.
Fact If you dig into the system you see that money is distributed by goverment official to their friends who get the more money to be reelected this is how the cycle perpetuates
Fact all contries with a socialist leaning laws are FAILING (greece, spain, netherlands, USA, Italy, Great Britain, Ireland, Denmark, Finland) (I have not heard about sweden directly)

your points
Fact Germany and Norway do not suffer these problems Germany is not heavily socialist and norway is not part of the EU. ohh wait they have a much more controlled form of socialism in Norway yeah and they maintain themselves.


Dogma: look it up a free economy free of taxes preforms better. So yes EXCESSIVE taxes are corruption, where in money is taken from those who have earned and is spread to those who have not see unemployed.

I can honestly say i was unemployed for most of a year i worked temp jobs did laborers work whatever it took to pay the bills but i never ever accepted unemployment or free healthcare so don't try to put me down i know i'm right i work a hard job everyday to get less than half the average median income in the area I live.

By the way i can't post all my argument here as explanations would take to long please go read these books.
Basic economics by Thomas Sowell, freakonomics by Steven D. Lovett