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deejaybainbridge wrote:Wow, people come down hard on those that venture into commission work.

I do have to back up some of the comments made, but personally it's the pose that does not work for me.

Commission work is a hard game to be in, and it needs a certain amount of professionalism. I'm not trying to be nasty, but the truth is if you want to turn a good trade, you really do need to be much more precise in your work than the OP is showing. To get a decent reputation you really need to show stuff that's better than this.

It's a case of cruel to be kind, really. If the OP had stated 'this is something I did for a friend' as opposed to 'this is something I'm trying to pass off as a professional job' the feedback would be a little softer.

For example, GMM studios produce armies that I wouldn't personally want - they're lacking in detail, and the work done is pretty much blasted out by airbrush. But they're precise, consistent and extremely professional looking for a tabletop army, and the modelling and conversion work is usually just as clean as it would be for a display piece.
Look at a company like Golem Studios for high end work, aimed more at collectors, and also some pretty nice TT army level stuff. Sometimes it lacks imagination, but that's what you get in big batch jobs.

WAAAAGGHH-god wrote:well i'm sorry that you feel that way Winterdyne. and i know i could never achieve a standard as perfect as yours. maybe i should just stop trying?

but still, it seems that everywhere has different standards, and in my area at least, i am considered one of the better painters. nowhere near the best, but pretty darn good; i don't know whether this says more about me or the people in my area, but who cares anyway.

if i'm being honest, i think you may have just crossed the line from being constructive into being insulting. painters as good as you should aim to bring people up to their level, not give them a slap in the face while telling them what they did wrong.

As long as your customer is happy, that is all that matters.

Dont give up!

Exactly my position, while i have been making subtle changes to the model throughout the life of this thread, i'm not going to completely overhaul it because the client has approved the paintjob.

and winterdyne, just out of curiosity, how much would you charge to paint this model at your standard rates? this is just for the purpose of comparison

WAAAAGGHH-god wrote:well i'm sorry that you feel that way Winterdyne. and i know i could never achieve a standard as perfect as yours. maybe i should just stop trying?

but still, it seems that everywhere has different standards, and in my area at least, i am considered one of the better painters. nowhere near the best, but pretty darn good; i don't know whether this says more about me or the people in my area, but who cares anyway.

if i'm being honest, i think you may have just crossed the line from being constructive into being insulting. painters as good as you should aim to bring people up to their level, not give them a slap in the face while telling them what they did wrong.

Indeed. I'm not trying to be insulting, but I do stand by what I said as simple fact. Don't give up on the painting, but I would if I were you dial back on pushing the commissions until you've got the skills in place to do so. Remember your area is the internet - posting here isn't advertising your services to folks in your FLGS, school or whatever, it's a worldwide catchment area and the standards by which you will be judged are similarly global.

In terms of bringing those skills up; there are so many individual pointers I could give that it's pointless trying to list them all in an open post. I suggest concentrating on one technique at a time, and start at the basics. Platoon Britannica is a great place to get hints and tips (if you don't post there, register!) and everyone on there (myself included) will be more than happy to answer questions. What would probably be constructive to your skill set is to start a plog thread on a metal mini that you can easily strip down and redo (cellulose thinner will strip a metal mini in minutes). Do one stage at a time (cleanup, prime, basecolours, shade, highlight, glaze, weathering, basing, tie-in weathering) and get each stage good enough before progressing. You'll also get pointers as you go that will improve your skills. I can guarantee that after going through that process you'll be faster, neater, and in a much better position to actually get payment from strangers for your work.

Edit: A contemptor dread, to high-end tabletop level comes in at around £110, from pack to varnish, including reasonable basing and weathering / battle damage, and any very simple conversion. The GS work I'd charge extra at around £15. I reckon it'd take about 10 - 12 hours work in total.

Here's one painted by Tom Moore that shows the standard I'm talking about:

well, when it comes to clients, all of them so far (bar one) have been my friends. no one as of yet has gone through with a commission from dakka. well apart from tonyheath/sbu, but he burned me good.

i've got a few metal minis lying around that i could do a blog on. so i think i'm going to start it from here, as i don't really have time for another minis forum

PB focusses ENTIRELY on painting / modelling. MUCH more suitable than dakka for feedback and pointers on painting / modelling techniques. It's also UK based and arranges local meetings, which are a superb way to talk to people and see techniques being don in the flesh. Can't recommend it strongly enough.

ah, fair enough. i'll give it a look then

EDIT: and in response to how much you would charge for the contemptor to be painted, where you charge £125, i'm charging about £20, and buying the model myself (for £15 from a trade) then adding that onto the cost. so that gives you an idea of the level at which i was paid to paint. i have yet to have someone commission me to paint a display figure, because the people in my area don't have the disposable income to justify that kind of expenditure, and any that do have the money can paint far better than me anyway.

that is the reason i post on dakka, with the hopes of getting some real commission work that i can go to town on

WAAAAGGHH-god wrote:ah, fair enough. i'll give it a look then

EDIT: and in response to how much you would charge for the contemptor to be painted, where you charge £125, i'm charging about £20, and buying the model myself (for £15 from a trade) then adding that onto the cost. so that gives you an idea of the level at which i was paid to paint. i have yet to have someone commission me to paint a display figure, because the people in my area don't have the disposable income to justify that kind of expenditure, and any that do have the money can paint far better than me anyway.

that is the reason i post on dakka, with the hopes of getting some real commission work that i can go to town on

So a fiver on the paint job. Seams more like you are doing this for friends for experience more then anything else.

In that case keep it up. Keep trying and doing what your doing, defiantly don't give up.

No one picks up a paint brush for the first time and finds they can win GD.

edited for clarity

no, the paint job is £20, it is costing the guy 35 becuse i had to buy the model as well

and i have been painting for upwards of 4 years

Oh, I charge model cost on top.

That level of work does not add value to the model, it reduces value. Your £35 total is less than a brand new contemptor would cost, and the work needed to restore it to a 'like new' state is considerable. In terms of being able to bring that piece up to display quality, I doubt it's possible. I think we've had this conversation before, but paint something and ebay it. If it goes for MORE than retail, you're doing OK - you're doing work that people are willing to pay for. If it goes for less, go away and improve.

The disposable income of people in your area is irrelevant. Royal Mail is great at sending things around the world (around 90% of my work is from overseas). There are also numerous couriers who can do large items far cheaper. I think it was about £120 to send a table full of some very heavy terrain to the US - two very large boxes.

You'll find that those with the money to burn on commission painting don't actually have the time to paint stuff themselves - especially to a good tabletop standard. This is where the meat of the market is.

And again, not trying to be nasty, but there's next to no chance you'll get real work showing stuff at this standard, no matter how cheap you are. You're basically trying to advertise yourself by saying 'I'll massively reduce the potential resale value of your mini, and only charge you a little bit'.

Edit: If you're serious about it, even as a hobby you want to be pulling £3-4 per hour of work you put in. This generally equates to about the value of the model you're working on. That is to say, a model you sell on ebay should go for about twice its retail value, minimum. At that point it's 'yay, free hobby!'.

WAAAAGGHH-god wrote:no, the paint job is £20, it is costing the guy 35 becuse i had to buy the model as wel

Ah, okay.

Still it's not £125 so as people say, the client gets what he pays for.

In essence don't give up due to some critics on dakka. Your charging the right price for the product so I see no problem. Take on board the comments and keep practising.

ok, final update of this model before i call it a day and stop work on it forever.

Good morning Waaaagghh-god,

I need to make an apology about yesterday’s post that I left. I am apologizing, not about what I said, but about what I did not say. I left you will criticisms about your models and did not explain nor give you the constructive input to improve. I will explain more in the detail.

Know what you are getting yourself into before posting.
I am a student of business and a hobbyist. I look for the best and worst in all models that I come across on the forums of Dakka Dakka. This site will tear every model that they come across apart. Dakka Dakka is a site for Painting-Snobs as Warseer is for Rules-Lawyers. We are here to judge you. You would not be posting your work on a site like this without wanting to know what other people think. Yes, most people are brutally honest and sometimes down right rude and cruel; however, feed off of the comments to improve yourself.

Know the reputation that you are creating because of this post.
Now at first look at the post on the forums which you titled “First commission of the year from BMB”. The first thing that catches people’s eye is the commission part. When we see commission, we are expecting something that we can say that is worth buying. You have not only made us the Judges but also a possible consumer. When opening the post and seeing what you have said you have sold, we look at it in confusion. “Somebody paid money for this.” To us it seems that you are trying to sell a McDonalds’ cheese burger and calling it Fillet-mingnon. This is insulting to what we the consumers were expecting. The model has problems and you know it, we can see them through every picture. This people opinions and suggestions, you should take in every one of them and improve on it. You should look at this experience as a quality control group that businesses hire to evaluate their produce. As of right now you can see that no one will purchase a commission because the produce is not happy with what they see.

Know what you can and should do.
The best suggestion that I can make that will improve your business to as of right now stop taking commission for the time being. Let me explain. I am not telling you to pack up and never come back, no, far from it. I think that you should take time to practice your art of modeling and painting. From looking at you last set of pictures; you do have skills in certain areas as the energy on the blades are very well done. You need to now home in on the rest of the craft before selling it as a business. Take a few months and search for articles that give you step-by-step instructions on the basic modeling techniques. Dakka-Dakka, Warseer, Coolminiornot, Reaper, Gamesworkshop all have free painting and modeling articles that will help you to improve.

Please do not take anyone comments too personally. Just remember that sometimes in writing that a message that someone is trying to give comes out differently when in written form.

I hope you have good like in the future project and I hope to see them soon

ok, that's what i wanted to hear. together you and winterdyne have provided some amazing advice, and for that i thank you greatly. i probably am going to take a break from commissions, or at least from advertising on dakka, i need to get my own stuff done anyway.

but before anyone discounts my painting completely, i just ask you to take a look at what i consider to be my best work

Not too shabby.
Pointers on that -
The blend on the axe is nice and smooth; the consistency of paint you used on that should be everywhere. The skulls (and helmet) ar very thick.
Your edge highlights will be easier to control with thinner paint, and appliied using the edge (not point) of the brush. Remember you can also work backward to tighten up lines, so build up a bright edge (a few thin coats up the progression) then glaze back. I guess you're using the thicker paint to counteract flooding - this is not the right thing to do, it's the touch of the brush on the surface and the load of paint in the brush combined that give you flow control, concentrate on that rather than the consistency of the paint, which should flow from the brush not be spread by it like butter on a knife.
Artistically, nothing wrong I can see (brown shading the skulls will tie them in more with the orange and give a more unified look). Like the flames, like the pattern on the back. Just needs tightening up technique wise.

WAAAAGGHH-god wrote:ok, that's what i wanted to hear. together you and winterdyne have provided some amazing advice, and for that i thank you greatly. i probably am going to take a break from commissions, or at least from advertising on dakka, i need to get my own stuff done anyway.

but before anyone discounts my painting completely, i just ask you to take a look at what i consider to be my best work

This is what I was trying to explain. You do have talent in certain areas. The freehand on the cloak is good. The blending, highlighting, and feathering on the areas of the armor, axe, and cloak show your skills; however, the white on model is not good at all. The bright white throws the entire model off. You have skill, but need to practice in certain areas to bring everything to the same level.

Sorry if this seems a little off topic, but.... I think that falling back on the 'standard in my area' is at best irrelevant and weak.

Imho, To become a better painter you should only really concider your own standards and those that you concider to be superior.

I think the underlying message in most of the comments here, particularly winterdyne's (correct me if i'm wrong) is that to be a well recognised commision-ist you need to be constantly improving you techniques and of course have a strong handel on those thought to be the more basic. When you start charging for your work, you will be judged on a much more demanding scale.

Excepting people's critique as more than just their opinion and acting in it to improve is a fundamental that you will have to come to terms with.

And remember, (this applies to everyone) there is always someone better then you.

Hits_the_spot wrote:

And remember, (this applies to everyone) there is always someone better then you.

This is superb advice. When psyching yourself up at the start of a job, spend an hour just looking through your favourite pieces. For me, Ana Machowska's gallery on CMON / Chest of Colors is a usual starting spot She's been a painting hero(ine) of mine for a long while now, her work just has a lovely natural feel to it. Bohun (Bogusz Stupnicki) is my go-to reference for how I'd like my metallics to look when I grow up. :-p
The 'inspirational pieces' thread on PB is really starting to have some jaw-droppers in it now as well.

I think part of the problem with this forum is that there are quite a few good painters on the scene, some of whom do commisions. So when someone turns up who can do an average job everyone just goes meh... Because of the impressive painters on here, if you do commisions they automatically think it HAS to be like the ones they see from the best painters. But I have to say comments like Winterdyne's are belittling , not constructive. Ignore the belittling comments and concentrate on the decent constructive ones.

Your last set of pics shows you have skills. This is the level all of your commission work should be at, at a minimum. You have to remember that every model you paint for someone becomes an advert for your work. When they put it on the table and mention you painted it for them, for pay, it's an advertisement of your skill. Right now, your advertising is saying "low budget". Is this where you want to be? When you start a business and aim for the low end, it is very difficult to move up to high end. If peoples first impression of your work is your low budget stuff, they won't be willing to shell out big bucks even if you've improved.

I realize right now you're taking any opportunity to paint on commission, and you have to start somewhere. However, don't dumb down your standards for clients. Paint to the best of your abilities. Always. The demographic you've chosen to paint for (young teens without money), is a losing strategy if you're trying to get a business up and running. Paint to a high standard and you will attract a more favorable demographic; people with jobs who can afford your services. Painting for kids who have to wait for birthdays or Christmas to have a little cash to spend on painting will never grow your business or give you the clientele you need to make a serious go at it. Understand also that most people will never make enough to paint for a living, but it can certainly be a way to do your hobbying for free, or nearly free.

@^ Agreed. Constuctive Critisism is the best way to help others who may have a lesser painting quality. I think it looks good. I really like it. If the coustomer is happy then your work here is done. I know it would take me a while to get it to look that nice. I do commisions as well, but It is not that good of quality. Should I give up my buisness because Im not good enought for some folks on dakka? Absolutly not. Stepping off of my soap box now...

Constructive criticism is valuable to everyone. Even the pros can miss something a fresh set of eyes can help point to.

It's certainly looking better than the first picture, though I'd say try a little more on the brass one last time before leaving it. It just seems a touch flat and would surely add to the improvements of the rest of the model.

Optio wrote:I think part of the problem with this forum is that there are quite a few good painters on the scene, some of whom do commisions. So when someone turns up who can do an average job everyone just goes meh... Because of the impressive painters on here, if you do commisions they automatically think it HAS to be like the ones they see from the best painters. But I have to say comments like Winterdyne's are belittling , not constructive. Ignore the belittling comments and concentrate on the decent constructive ones.

Sometimes being belittled is important. Consider if the OP decided that the feedback he was getting was positive enough to spend money advertising (God forbid pay-per-click or something like it) without testing the market response properly? He'd be pouring money into something where he's just not going to get any return, or worse yet get clients that expect something better than he can provide and shout loudly about it.

In terms of my own comment, I meant it. My 7 year old really could paint up a contemptor like that (under close supervision but without me actually handling the tools). Check out the Necron commission I did recently. Max earned his pocket money that week and did the basework. I didn't let him loose on the minis, but he could definitely handle the airbrush work (though admittedly not the cleaning). He is a determined and focussed child when he wants to be. This aside, it's not a good indication of the quality of the piece from someone that purports to be a professional. I get a joiner in to fix a door frame, I damn well want the architrave plumb at the verticals. Someone wants their miniatures painting, they damn well want the details where they're supposed to be, and you can bet they'd want their Khorne symbols neat and square at the sides.

It's more helpful, from a business standpoint to be bluntly told 'your're not good enough yet' through whatever method than to be coddled into the mistaken belief that you won't fail. I didn't start my commission business right after I got back into painting*. I sold an army on eBay, painted a few things for friends, and then got approached. Since then it's grown from a one man band to subbing out to other painters who don't want to arrange their own work or don't have the exposure yet, but at all points the standard has to be good enough that people** would be happy putting it on a table. When I see commission painters, I judge on the standards expected in my business - not my own personal taste or comfort zone. Similarly, those are the standards by which I expect to be judged.

*: I took a 3 or 4 year hiatus between deciding I actually wanted to pass my degree and a couple of years after.
**: I mean grown-ups, with disposable income to burn, not teenagers with a moderate allowance.

OK, so my client has decided to give me a short, sharp poke in the back, and can apparently no longer afford to pay me.

this model is now officially for sale.

should anyone still want to buy it after hearing all of this criticism (i know i would be a little put off), feel free to send me a PM

i know this should probably be put in the swap shop, but people here have been quite helpful, so i figured they should get the news first, before i put it out to the whole market

Sorry but I have to agree with the first post! The model does not look good - but in all fairness I have to agree with the OP's first response! I had the same issue with having to follow the client express wishes and paint something I thought was a load of rubbish - he was more than happy and paying hard earned money. I wasn't really happy and that didn't matter a tiny bit! I have learnt after receiving a bit a slag-heap critism on that paint job to state CLEARLY that the particular paint job was wanted and not your choice! Maybe this may help in the future!

WAAAAGGHH-god wrote:OK, so my client has decided to give me a short, sharp poke in the back, and can apparently no longer afford to pay me.

this model is now officially for sale.

should anyone still want to buy it after hearing all of this criticism (i know i would be a little put off), feel free to send me a PM

i know this should probably be put in the swap shop, but people here have been quite helpful, so i figured they should get the news first, before i put it out to the whole market

Well hopefully he at least paid for the model itself. If he can't afford to pay you for your work, then keep the model.

However if he did not pay for the model and you did, let this be a lesson for your commission work in the future. Make your clients buy the model first that way if they back out of paying you for the paintjob you can at least keep the model.

I have a suggestion for the bullet hole realism. I drilled holes in a model and afterwards I took my hobby knife and added some cuts and other damage around the hole. Bullets don't typically go through a surface clean so just test different things to rough up the entry point

I do have to say, the bullet holes look fine to me. I do have some words though. At the OP, The bullet hole look fine. They might be a bit deep, but other then that I think they are great. As for all of thoughs who critisised him, Have any of you ever seen bullet holes on real metal? I live in pa on a 56 acre farm, and we have our own range. With the dozen firearms that we have, I find that when shooting at a (steel) Plate 1in thick, the bullets tend to do 1 of three things...,,(1) Go clear through the plate. (2) Barly make a dent, but take the rust/paint of of the plate down to bare steel. (3) Because the bullet does not penetrate the steel, it actually (melts) into the steel. Most often the bullet goes half way through, but the rest of the lead/copper forms almost a mushroom type flange at the face of the steel. An example below.

unfortunately i live in the UK where we aren't quite as gun happy. the most i have ever shot is my .22 target rifle, and even then we are shooting at paper targets in front of rubber anti-ricochet screens in front of a steel wall, all encased in a brick out-house. none of the guys in the team have seen past the rubber

nice !