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ArbeitsSchu wrote:Amen to that.

What am I saying? PSC are already GETTING all my money.

they aren't getting all of mine untill they make plastic IS-2's, SU-100's and Katyusha trucks... THEN they will get all of my money.

on a side note.. how are Zvezda minis?

Edit:
Just saw Zvezda does plastics as well. must throw money at them too!

Deathklaat wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:Amen to that.

What am I saying? PSC are already GETTING all my money.

they aren't getting all of mine untill they make plastic IS-2's, SU-100's and Katyusha trucks... THEN they will get all of my money.

on a side note.. how are Zvezda minis?

Edit:
Just saw Zvezda does plastics as well. must throw money at them too!

Zvezda are generally lower quality but cheaper than PSC (usually $3.50 for each vehicle). They do have a very limited range, however, as it is only focused on Operation Barbarossa.

I only noticed them because they are on the PSC website. Plus they are much cheaper alternatives to BF resin stuff. the shame is that they seem to be sold out at the manufacturer level so ill have to wait to try their Katyusha kit.

They are much simpler snap fit kits. Decent for the price but they aren't very detailed and as they are all identical they don't work well in a tank heavy army (I do have 21 Zvzeda Pz IIs though).

Skriker wrote: And that is all well and good, but as an experienced and established FoW player you are *not* the target market for the starter set. Don't need the book or the shermans, then by all means buy the box of 5 PSC Stugs instead. Dissing the starter set for not being something other than a starter set is kind of pointless.

Actually I am hardly established and even less experienced (I am in the process of putting my first army together), so I was actually considering this one. But since I got my free minibook with a box of Late War Panzergrenadiers from Maelstrom and lots of plastics from PSC, then it was kinda meh. But You definitely have a point. In fact, I could probably even take that starter IF it had at least 3 Stugs and 4 Shermans. Heck, I would have taken it because of those tanks and that Forces book - not because of "free" minibook and 5 dice. But with 2 Stugs I can't even field an Assault Tank platoon.

CainTheHunter wrote: But with 2 Stugs I can't even field an Assault Tank platoon.

It worked fine for my friend and I.

I got 2 captured Shermans for my Panzerkompanie and an Observer Sherman for my artillery.

He got 2 StuG Gs that fit snugly into his Fallshcirmjagerkompanie that enjoy sniping at my tanks.

Ghaz wrote:I don't think its because Battlefront has seen anyone "revolutionize" the industry so much as they've finally reached the tipping point to where plastics are becoming economically feasible.

You don't think there's been a revolution or you don't think BF have realised? Or is it that you don't think that good quality vehicle kits at £3 a pop is a revolution? PSC reached the economically feasible tipping point two years ago.

I had a look at the Sherman kit compared to the PSC kit face to face today. The PSC kit is noticeably superior in detail and options, though I should expect the latter given that the BF kit is an intro kit akin to the Battle for Skull Pass GW Space Marines.

BTW: My usually reliable source tells me that BF aren't planning any more plastics until the end of the year when they plan to introduce another, larger, starter set with both tanks and infantry. Time will tell if that turns out to be true.

I have to wonder though: If plastic molds are so shockingly expensive, as we are constantly told, then why 'waste' a mold on an inferior copy of a staple vehicle like a Sherman, when one could create a very nice model of one for the same cost? One that could bring a great leveling to the field?

ArbeitsSchu wrote:I have to wonder though: If plastic molds are so shockingly expensive, as we are constantly told, then why 'waste' a mold on an inferior copy of a staple vehicle like a Sherman, when one could create a very nice model of one for the same cost? One that could bring a great leveling to the field?

As said before , these are starter set vehicles, so they are meant to be simple and un-complex for beginners.

It was the same with the previous starter set, with lower quality solid chunks of resin with metal guns in the starter set instead of their normal vehicles.

General Seric wrote:As said before , these are starter set vehicles, so they are meant to be simple and un-complex for beginners.

That wasn't what he asked. These kits are IMO far superior to the old resin 'Open Fire' ones.

Still, I think they missed the boat with this one. The chance to have two small platoons (3 x STuG'S and 4 xShermans) I would have bought the set to get another spare rule book, and another 2 Platoons (German Stugs and the Shermans as Russian/UK/US or German Beute).

When I bought open fire, me and a friend, traded vehicles. I got 4 Stug's he got 6 Shermans, we were both happy and the we swapped the dice too.

mwnciboo wrote:Still, I think they missed the boat with this one. The chance to have two small platoons (3 x STuG'S and 4 xShermans) I would have bought the set to get another spare rule book, and another 2 Platoons (German Stugs and the Shermans as Russian/UK/US or German Beute).

When I bought open fire, me and a friend, traded vehicles. I got 4 Stug's he got 6 Shermans, we were both happy and the we swapped the dice too.

I did the same. I own a whole platoon of Open Fire StuGs. I wouldn't recommend the new starter to anyone who didn't need the mini rulebook because PSC have set the standard for plastic StuGs and Shermans much higher than this starter set provides.

General Seric wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:I have to wonder though: If plastic molds are so shockingly expensive, as we are constantly told, then why 'waste' a mold on an inferior copy of a staple vehicle like a Sherman, when one could create a very nice model of one for the same cost? One that could bring a great leveling to the field?

As said before , these are starter set vehicles, so they are meant to be simple and un-complex for beginners.

It was the same with the previous starter set, with lower quality solid chunks of resin with metal guns in the starter set instead of their normal vehicles.

There is nothing particularly complicated about the PSC equivalents, and they are far better. There is nothing particularly complicated about most standard BF models either. I was never quite clear why BF bothered with the 'Open Fire' tanks in the first place, as the difference between them and the regular versions is minimal. Crap skirts and a fat bottom. They could have fixed the skirts by taking the ones they make in plastic and throwing those in, and providing a Stug with no skirts. I fail to see how this 'simple' plastic kit is a sensible financial move if its not going to be at least as good as PSC, especially given the cost of the molds.

Moulds aren't that expensive if they aren't particularly detailed; I don't know how much cheaper they are but supposedly a lot. If Zvzeda can charge under £3 per tank then their moulds are unlikely to cost them much. At the end of the day if resin was cheaper BF would almost certainly have gone with that instead, particularly if they have no firm plans to move into plastics.

I have to say that I am surprised that they are not snap fit.

Plastic molds are expensive in comparison to resin and metal, costing tens of thousands of dollars on average.

I doubt that low detail moulds cost anything like that much, even quite detailed moulds probably don't cost that much. How could the likes of Mantic games or the Perrys, which are essentially cottage industries, make so many plastic kits?

The molds are expensive, much more so than those for metals or resins. The machinery for casting plastics is also very large, energy intensive and expensive. How smaller companies manage to do plastics I don't know but the fact remains that plastic molds are not cheap or else everyone would be casting in plastic instead of a handful of companies.

Palindrome wrote:I doubt that low detail moulds cost anything like that much, even quite detailed moulds probably don't cost that much. How could the likes of Mantic games or the Perrys, which are essentially cottage industries, make so many plastic kits?

They sell a lot of kits. A lot (ask Tamyia that, they have a huge number of plastic kits)

Plastic molds still cost a lot even if its low detailed. Now there are some less expensive options coming out (spin casting? something like that) that even backyard businesses can have access too. But Hard plastic does have a hefty investment

Well BF obviously chose hard plastic over resin for a reason so even if hard plastic is more expensive it can't be by much.

Tens of thousands of pounds for a sprue is undoubtedly an exaggerated figure though; IIRC thats what GW claim their sprues cost/used to cost. I doubt that Mantic games have managed to sell 10,000 boxes of elves.

It is a lot more expensive than resin. Resin is probably the cheapest to cast.

And no, tens of thousands of dollars for a set of molds is not an exaggeration. It costs a lot of money to mill a mold out of a solid piece of steel.


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http://dragonjewelinc.com/home4.htm

For an example of the price for molds for some very simple items.

Yea Resin and Metal are much cheaper for short range operations. That is why for every plastic maker you have, theres probably 10 metal/resin makers

And that is the scary thing about plastic, you dont know if you're going to sell well. That might explain why Mantic is moving away from its plastic pedestal, whether for good or bad


Anyways probably BF is making these things plastic because they may be anticipating larger crowds moving into fow