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Made in gb
Lieutenant Colonel







From a purely Military point view, you never advance 65miles along a single axis road in enemy held territory against a blooded and veteran opponent who is skilled in the art of war. You lose all initiative (nevermind Surprise or security), you will be endlessly ambushed, you will have re-supply issues. You will end up cut off surrounded, far from support and bummed to death. This is why Armoured units in mountainous zones are easily destroyed, their lines of advance are so limited, you can predict them and ambush them to pieces.

I often call the Market Garden piece, Falaise Optimism, because it was based around the idea that the German army was still running after the Falaise debarcle. The Plan whilst sound in principle should have had more redudancy, and resilience, a two prong assault. Furthermore it was too far, 65 miles.... It was a miracle the 82nd took their Bridges intact. If Bitterick had blown the Bridge, we would have been stuffed.

Arnhem itself was a Cluster, from the Radio's to the landing zones, to the delay of the Recon Jeeps which got shredded before they even got to the Bridge, the fact that most of the British Airborne didn't even get to the Bridge and were stuck defending Landing zones miles away. It was pure luck Frost got in there.

The fact they held out as long as they did says more about Elite Soldier Training, elan and esprit du corps than it does about sound military staff work.

The truth of the matter is that German Officers at every level were superior, their Prussian traditions, their efficiency, their mission command and the excellent way they regenerated units puts modern armies with all our technology to shame. The Wehrmacht literally re-organised it's defence on the fly and given all their problems they were amazing. BIG P's point on MG's is a good illustration of Battlefield Pragmatism, if the BEF at Dunkirk had done the same the UK wouldn't have been in a panic facing a German invasion in 1940 with next to no small arms, machine guns, artillery or AT.

Montgomery inherited North Africa from a line of British Officers that all had their hand in the second El Alamein victory. I do not credit Monty one bit, he had one set piece battle where he had superior logistics against Rommel (king of the rat-catchers and a major risk taker). He would take his place in infamy with Percival if he'd have screwed it up.

Auchinleck stopped the Axis, Montgomery then presided over the second Battle of El alamein.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/04/12 21:25:41


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Made in ie
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!




Kildare, Ireland

Well the radio issued is not as much of a problem, as was shown in a research article by Marconi a few years ago, as was the loss of the radar sets that would have been used to control tacair over Arnhem. All were lost or damaged on landing. The problem with the radios was not so much in Arnhem itself but contact with 1stAAA HQ.

The landing zones themselves were the only ones available for Arnhem that did not involve a fly over of the Deelen airfield flak belt. Had they opted for two lifts on day one (as originally intended) then they could have lifted all of 1st AB and most of the Poles into Arnhem and not needed to hold them. That was overuled by Brereton who said it was too much strain on the transport pilots involved, despite something similar having been done previously.

As it later turned out, most of Deelen airfields flak sights were dummies... But they didnt know that then. Also the areas selected for a coup-de-grace landing, as done in Normandy to take the bridge actually turned out to be camping areas for two 'Alarmheit' companies. They werent used as the ground was deemed to be unsuitable for glider landing so it was a lucky escape.

XXX Corps advance was never going to go well, but it really didnt have a great many other options and they did use other roads, not a single highway as is often made out... Sadly though all the roads led to bridges...

Its easy to denigragte the plan with hindsight, but at the time they believed they had an opportunity. Had it been launched when 'Comet' was originally scheduled then the German 'crust' would not have formed and again things may have been different.

Not all German officers were superior... They had their failures too.


As for Monty, I never bother arguing about him. He is a love or hate character and his detractors never seen his achievements, always creditting them to others, and his supporters tend to bluster in support. He was a very capable commander, though with some dubious personality traits. I dont rate Rommel, he was unsuited to army command. Perfect for leading a division... Too upfront to lead an army.

 Strombones wrote:
Battlegroup - Because its tits.
 
   
Made in hk
Nasty Nob






Big P wrote:Its easy to denigragte the plan with hindsight, but at the time they believed they had an opportunity. Had it been launched when 'Comet' was originally scheduled then the German 'crust' would not have formed and again things may have been different.


It's not just hindsight - it was criticised at the time, but the objections were swept aside by Montgomery.

Not all German officers were superior... They had their failures too.


Absolutely, but German officers were for the most part better trained than their British counterparts, and were not constrained by a labourious system of passing detailed orders down the line. German troops were generally able to amalgamate into ad-hoc formations far more effectively than British troops. These advantages, as well as being able to deploy armour against the paratroopers, were key to defeating Market Garden.

German strategic planning was often deeply flawed, and while German generals liked to blame Hitler for that, he was not always to blame and sometimes saw the bigger picture better than his generals did.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Terry Pratchett RIP 
   
Made in gb
Lieutenant Colonel







BIG P, I agree with your assessment of Rommel, he was too much of a risk taker and was ideally suited at the Divisional level.

There were many options not utilised on the Market Garden Plan (like why they didn't drop on the opposite bank like the Poles did?) . But once again it was all a road based advance, due to the time constraints and geography of Holland, it was a massive unnecessary risk, rather like putting you pay check on a 50-1 horse and justifying it saying "Hey if this works, we will pay off the mortgage in one go".

Monty was capable, but he's wasn't some strategic genius and he certainly was a propaganda puppet used to bolster British Moral and also selected to try and given Britain a General at the Table with Eisenhower (who didn't particularly like him), If he had handled Caen in a more decisive way, I would rate him more highly. In my opinion the best General of World War 2 was Slim, (von Manstein and Zhukov deserve an honourable mention).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/04/13 08:01:19


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Kildare, Ireland

Tailgunner wrote:
Big P wrote:Its easy to denigragte the plan with hindsight, but at the time they believed they had an opportunity. Had it been launched when 'Comet' was originally scheduled then the German 'crust' would not have formed and again things may have been different.


It's not just hindsight - it was criticised at the time, but the objections were swept aside by Montgomery.
.


Most plans usually are. Especially airborne ones. If you read Terence Otway's post-war appraisal of Airborne Operational Effectiveness produced for the War Office and available from the Imperial War Museum, its clear that many of those objections were stock ones in response to most of the proposed airborne drops. The 'concern' over the tanks, was not swept aside but consider in the same way as any information from Dutch intel sources and pictures, what should have been done was to pass this intel further down the line to allow commanders to change their load-outs. Frost commented that after the war, had he seen the photos of tanks, or been told of them, it wouldnt have stopped the op, he would just have taken more PIATs instead of 3" mortars. Radio traffic also suggested that the German units in the area were giving up their equipment to other units (which they were, much of 9th and 10th SS vehicles were being loaded onto trains for redeployment when the battle commenced). Though Otway is scathing in his review of the operational planning used and the research also features Frost's appraisal of the Arnhem drop and if it could have succeeded, he gives several key factors which he believes would have changed the battle at key stages.

The point is though, at its base level the operational idea had merit. Had it been properly implemented it could have succeeded. Part of my research focussed on a counter-factual piece which tried to remedy the operational planning flaws from both the start to issues that tactically effected the operational once underway. Obviously you can only change things that could have been changed... No point in saying 'use Dutch Resistance' for example.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
mwnciboo wrote: In my opinion the best General of World War 2 was Slim, (von Manstein and Zhukov deserve an honourable mention).


Wouldnt argue with that.

Also fond of Student too. Often overlooked.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/04/13 08:29:02


 Strombones wrote:
Battlegroup - Because its tits.
 
   
Made in gb
Lieutenant Colonel







Kurt Student was superb, Crete was nearly a disaster but he pulled it off. (Also had a huge hand in stalling the Allies during Market Garden)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/13 09:01:59


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Made in lv
Charging Wild Rider





Whereas Zhukov was a butcher.

Looking to trade away 15mm Forged in Battle Pumas (still in the box). 
   
Made in gb
Lieutenant Colonel







Zhukov was one the best Strategists ever to take the field.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/04/13 09:03:10


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Kildare, Ireland

mwnciboo wrote:Kurt Student was superb, Crete was nearly a disaster but he pulled it off. (Also had a huge hand in stalling the Allies during Market Garden)



Erm... Crete was probably his worst venture...

It was a disaster cos it was so poorly planned. He also had little to do with its success... That was General Freyburg who assured German victory.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
mwnciboo wrote:Zhukov was one the best Strategists ever to take the field.


Though to be fair... He didnt mind taking losses to get the job done, though that was every Soviet commander, not just Zhukov.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/04/13 09:17:40


 Strombones wrote:
Battlegroup - Because its tits.
 
   
Made in lv
Charging Wild Rider





Zhukov was a former Imperial Officer with all the consequences - it was actually the Imperial tradition to disregard the common soldiers, which was later inherited by the RKKA. His reputation among troops was - Zhukov will achieve his ams at all costs disregarding the casualty rate - luckily the RKKA was the most forgiving army in that sense. But maybe he was exact type of person, which was needed at that time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/13 09:27:09


Looking to trade away 15mm Forged in Battle Pumas (still in the box). 
   
Made in gb
Lieutenant Colonel







Big P wrote:
Erm... Crete was probably his worst venture...


It was and he pulled it out the bag, the first day was a disaster, they still managed to achieve their objectives on the second day (Maleme airfield) and fought for Heraklion. And then the Allies fought, dilly dallied about, being pretty ineffective and eventually evacuated. Granted the Germans didn't do brilliantly, but it was the 1st mass Airborne assault (others in Holland in 1940 etc were much smaller in scale) and it was studied by the Allies who were building their own Para-Troops.

He directed Operation Mercury, so alot of lessons were learned and the Fallschirmjaegers were then forbidden from doing it again due to the very high casualties. Maybe it was luck, but it still worked.

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Kildare, Ireland

Not quite.

I hate to say it, but dont ever say that version in front of a Kiwi veteran from Crete - He will kick your teeth in. I spent the 60th anniversary of the battle with some. Very hard fighters who slaughtered the Germans on that first day. They were not ineffective. I would suggest rading Von der Heydte's book 'Daedalus Returned' to see just how hard they fought.

The casualty rates incurred during Merkur what exactly what Student had estimated during planning.

They only took Maleme Airfield due to the Commonwealth troops abandoning their positions on Hill 107 by mistake. They withdrew when they didnt need to as their position wasnt under threat.

That allowed the Germans to secure the airfield and bring in reinforcements.

Thats what swung the battle, nothing else. Not Student or any 'Prussian' superiority.

The FJ were dead in the water till that mistake.

At Maleme, III Battalion, 1st Assault Rgt lost 400 of its 600 men on day one, with one of its companies suffering 112 killed out of 126 men.

The story was the same all over the island, plus added to the FJ problems were the lack of water and the side effects of benzedrine tablets.

If it hadnt been for the mistaken withdrawal, the game was up. Student was looking at cancelling the operation, especially after the seaborne flotilla was massacred by the Royal; Navy.

The airfield allowed 5th Mountain Division to arrive and swing the battle... Not too mention air superiority.


The FJ casualty rates were not the only reason for the curtailing of airborne operations.

After Denmark, Holland and Crete the Transport fleets were decimated having lost hundreds of transport planes in little over a year of operations, not too mention the large numbers of highly trained aircrews.

Simply put, the Germans didnt have the air fleet capacity to conduct such operations.

However they did continue with airborne operations, with ones at Leros, Drvar and Bordeaux with smaller ops in Italy and the Ardennes.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/04/13 16:20:54


 Strombones wrote:
Battlegroup - Because its tits.
 
   
Made in gb
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander





Ramsden Heath, Essex

All this talk of Airborne battles and Market Garden brings to mind the PC game Close Combat 2: A bridge too far, which I have been playing to excess again recently. A great game and doesn't look too bad inspite of being over 12 years old.

Not much strategic value but tactically spot on (soo many german MGs!), worth a look chaps.

How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website " 
   
Made in gb
Lieutenant Colonel







I am going to write in broad brush, sweeping statements here. I think the Prussian Officer Corps point is valid, because this martial tradition was not rooted in WWII or Nazi Idealogy. Germany had been cranking out excellent Officers for Generations before Bismarcks unification of Germany and continued to do so. The teutonic meritocracy and efficiency was much better than say Britain which was stuck in social castes. They were much more Professional (partially because of their Military Education), than say British Officers where they had the Martial Tradition it was heavily coupled to a social strata, or put more bluntly "Gentlemen Officers, amateur soldiers" with several exceptions. Sandhurst was an excellent institution but in many respects was geared towards maintaining Empire and not developing Military methods and the idea of "Maneouverist Approach" and "Mission Command" were alien to them for decades. In Germany Soldiering was considered an Honourable and decent Profession.

The British did however learn quickly, and by late WWI Britain was probably pre-eminent in it's all arms combat, the infantry tactics in particular were beyond others as was the introduction of Armour.

German's make good Soldiers, having worked with them in NATO in the last Decade their Officers are superb, and I don't rate many Military Officer Corps these days (including the US, as their Officers are generally poorly educated and exercise poor control over their troops, courting popularity with their sub-ordinates over Military efficiency and solid discipline. They do have exceptional Officers but with any Gaussian Distribution you will get that. It's the none standardized training in the US, some Officers are trained in ROTC, others at College/University (Annapolis/West Point), others through the ranks. There is no gel, that holds them together as a singular body, forging traditions and building that fraternal loyalty, like an institution like Sandhurst. The average British or German Officer is far superior (making allowances for skew low IQ stats of Ruperts & Henry's the British Guards and Cavalry Officers ).

EDIT - Just dug out my copies of Close Combat 2....How do i make this work with Windows 7..... :(

This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2012/04/14 11:11:38


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Made in gb
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander





Ramsden Heath, Essex

I got it to run on vista so it should defo work on W7.

From memory, I created a new file in the program file the copied the disk into that file. Then run the set up program from that file.

I recommend setting it to elite then running XXX Corps across the Island/Poulder.

How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website " 
   
Made in ie
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!




Kildare, Ireland

mwnciboo wrote: Germany had been cranking out excellent Officers for Generations before Bismarcks unification of Germany


Well apart from their complete and utter humiliation by Napoleon in 1806...


No response to my repost to your Crete statements then?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/14 13:14:41


 Strombones wrote:
Battlegroup - Because its tits.
 
   
Made in gb
Lieutenant Colonel







Okay I don't like it when you are angry, I will argue the point. I don't want to get into a huge debate about Crete, but if you insist. What you wrote is correct but it reinforces the Allies unwillingness to aggressively take the initiative, withdrawing from a defensive position for no reason?

If they hadn't done this, then the German Para's would have been wiped out. Instead everyone sat around and the next thing the Germans held the Airfield. I agree Malme was the critical engagement, the "horse shoe nail" that ultimately resulted in the loss of the island. Once again, superior German Leadership in the face of overwhelming odds and a massive screw up, they didn't sit around waiting to die despite the fact they took a pasting, and ultimately they won. All of the components in the German Army came together to make them greater than the sum of their parts. The Morale, training, Superior Leadership, quality of material and tenacity combined at all levels to make the Wehrmacht incredibly capable. They won despite not having Sea cover, against the strongest Navy on the Planet.

If you lose the initiative, you effectively lose control and are on back foot, you can win from this position but it's very much harder. The Allies suffered massively from a deep seated "Inferiority complex", In some cases warranted in other cases not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/14 14:42:44


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Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Texas

I leave this topic alone and this is what happens

I dont mind though, it is a fascinating discussion, carry on I suppose

 
   
Made in ie
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!




Kildare, Ireland

mwnciboo wrote:
If they hadn't done this, then the German Para's would have been wiped out. Instead everyone sat around and the next thing the Germans held the Airfield. I agree Malme was the critical engagement, the "horse shoe nail" that ultimately resulted in the loss of the island. Once again, superior German Leadership in the face of overwhelming odds and a massive screw up, they didn't sit around waiting to die despite the fact they took a pasting, and ultimately they won. All of the components in the German Army came together to make them greater than the sum of their parts. The Morale, training, Superior Leadership, quality of material and tenacity combined at all levels to make the Wehrmacht incredibly capable. They won despite not having Sea cover, against the strongest Navy on the Planet.

If you lose the initiative, you effectively lose control and are on back foot, you can win from this position but it's very much harder. The Allies suffered massively from a deep seated "Inferiority complex", In some cases warranted in other cases not.


As with all of WW2, sea cover is largely irrelevant if you control the skies especially in the Med/Agean. The fighters based at Crete had been pulled back. Freyburg was even informed of the date of the attack, an ULTRA intercept had picked it up, but due to ULTRA being so secret he was not informed as to where the information came from, so treated it as another rumour from British Intelligence.

Indeed... Thats the whole point, they won due to anothers mistake. Not Germanic Leadership... A mistake and the resilience of the average Fallschirmjager.

The FJ had no choice but to hold on at Crete, and having met three Merkur veterans, they are some of the toughest, yet most modest men I have ever had the pleasure of meeting. One was a doctor in the first wave and was at Malame and his tales were something else...

Having meet both British and German WW2 Airborne veterans, the most striking thing is how similar they are.


 Strombones wrote:
Battlegroup - Because its tits.
 
   
Made in gb
Lieutenant Colonel







Definitely agree how similar elite units are, their MO is the same (infact it's the same thing you see in Elite formations all over the world). They are elite formations, same with Para's and Marines, stick them in the same place and they will fight like cockerels never for one moment realising they are mirror images of each other. Thats Elite Assault infantry for you, if you train them hard, and build them up, instill a sense of elitism, reinforce it with a sense of tradition, Men will achieve amazing feats. This is because a man will do almost anything not to be shamed in the eyes of those people he admires/esteems or are his peers. The fear of shame, unworthiness or to be found wanting is the greatest fear of all.

The Officers and Leaders of the Fallschirmjaeger would have been the best drawn from all over the Wehrmacht. The leadership element does have an impact on the way Elite units are used, it was a victory for the German's although it was Pyrrhic victory at best.

A mistake is not a mistake, if an enemy doesn't capitalize on it. It's an Opportunity lost to an enemy and a lucky escape if you get away with it. How often has History come down to being in the right/wrong place at the right/wrong time? Anyway we should probably meet up over a pint in the next few years and debate this and other points, in person, would be a nice way to while away the hours in front of a log fire.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/14 16:41:46


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Kildare, Ireland

mwnciboo wrote:Anyway we should probably meet up over a pint in the next few years and debate this and other points, in person, would be a nice way to while away the hours in front of a log fire.



I'll bring the books with cool pictures!

If you ever visit Ireland, I'll shout ye a fair few beers alright... and a few games too!

I think the phrase that best sums up the Commonwealth performance at Crete is 'snatching defeat from the jaws of victory'... As always with the Germans, give 'em an inch and they take a mile! Youre right, the tactical leadership of the Germans also contributed to getting them through the battle, if by nothing more than determined action when it was needed.



Must have been some sunloungers on Malame airfield... They just had to get the towels on them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/15 00:51:29


 Strombones wrote:
Battlegroup - Because its tits.
 
   
Made in gb
Lieutenant Colonel







The same if you are ever in the Land of Cymru, there'll be a welcome in the valleys.

Collecting Forge World 30k????? If you prefix any Thread Subject line on 30k or Pre-heresy or Horus Heresy with [30K] we can convince LEGO and the Admin team to create a 30K mini board if we can show there is enough interest! 
   
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Kildare, Ireland

mwnciboo wrote:The same if you are ever in the Land of Cymru, there'll be a welcome in the valleys.


The land of my Grandfather...

 Strombones wrote:
Battlegroup - Because its tits.
 
   
 
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