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I mean, I guess if you have a lot of other stuff to shoot at.

I mean, if you've got your platoons, AND a CCS AND some PCSs AND some HWSs or SWSs, AND some foot vets, your opponent can only wipe away so many of them in a single turn. In this case, vets would probably be low on the pecking order as the extra models makes them somewhat more difficult to kill than their smaller squad compatriots, and you don't get to do things like shut down orders like you do by shooting the officers first.

Testify wrote:Platoon guard have a chronic lack of special weapons.

No... No they don't...

*Move. If they're spread out (which they should be) they'll probably have to difficult terrain most turns. Good luck with that.

Constant 4+ Cover? Sign me up!

Special weapon veteran squads spit out reliable firepower, and in chimeras can use this to incredible effectiveness. You can also avoid being charged by enemy jump infantry, which is nice.

You don't avoid combat with jump infantry. You just hope that the Chimera doesn't get wrecked so that when the Veterans fall out, they're not paste when they get assaulted... By anything. Once that Chimera goes down your 100 points of 10 men get butchered. It's the Chimera that makes Veteran Special Weapons 'effective'.

Anyway if you'd like to show some example of how platoons/non veterans can bring down MEQs and light armour, I'd be genuinely interested to hear it. Nobody wants to play horde guard more than me, but it just doesn't work.

Read Ailaros' battle reports. It works quite well.

Nobody is going to argue that mech vet aren't spiffy, but I don't get the anger towards footguard. Some people say they're not sure if it's good or how it can work, and that's fine. But then people like Testify spout rage at it and use ridiculous comparisons like a chimera to a single guardsman, it gets silly.

Personally, my vehicles have been exploding like paper in the last four or five games I've played. Everyone who looks in their direction gets an immediate wreck or explosion. I find infantry to be more durable with good use of cover. I'm not saying vehicles are bad; that obviously goes against the trend that is 5th edition, but that I've personally felt infantry to do a lot better.

Unreg1stered wrote:Nobody is going to argue that mech vet aren't spiffy, but I don't get the anger towards footguard. Some people say they're not sure if it's good or how it can work, and that's fine. But then people like Testify spout rage at it and use ridiculous comparisons like a chimera to a single guardsman, it gets silly.

Personally, my vehicles have been exploding like paper in the last four or five games I've played. Everyone who looks in their direction gets an immediate wreck or explosion. I find infantry to be more durable with good use of cover. I'm not saying vehicles are bad; that obviously goes against the trend that is 5th edition, but that I've personally felt infantry to do a lot better.

See thats why I usually dismount my vets and have them follow behind the chimera so that they are always getting a 3+ cover save. That way my chimera won't get assaulted but my vets still have some heavy fire support combining the strengths of both. Plus if the chimera goes boom I don't risk losing an entire vet squad.

you know i run Plasma vets and that works fine for me ,........ stick em in a chimera .....

Ailaros wrote:I mean, I guess if you have a lot of other stuff to shoot at.

I mean, if you've got your platoons, AND a CCS AND some PCSs AND some HWSs or SWSs, AND some foot vets, your opponent can only wipe away so many of them in a single turn. In this case, vets would probably be low on the pecking order as the extra models makes them somewhat more difficult to kill than their smaller squad compatriots, and you don't get to do things like shut down orders like you do by shooting the officers first.

I dunno, I'd definitely direct some fire towards those meltavets before they get too close. They'd definitely be a higher priority target than something like a blob squad or standard infantry squad. You do have a decent point if you give the opponent too many options, but in that case your vets probably aren't close enough to do their thing. I definitely see you as an authority on foot Guard though, and while it's never worked for me I'd be willing to see a battle report where you try it out.

Kasrkin229 wrote: you know i run Plasma vets and that works fine for me ,........ stick em in a chimera .....

Plasma vets are still damn effective, just not quite as points-efficient as meltavets.

Brother SRM wrote:

Ailaros wrote:I mean, I guess if you have a lot of other stuff to shoot at.

I mean, if you've got your platoons, AND a CCS AND some PCSs AND some HWSs or SWSs, AND some foot vets, your opponent can only wipe away so many of them in a single turn. In this case, vets would probably be low on the pecking order as the extra models makes them somewhat more difficult to kill than their smaller squad compatriots, and you don't get to do things like shut down orders like you do by shooting the officers first.

I dunno, I'd definitely direct some fire towards those meltavets before they get too close. They'd definitely be a higher priority target than something like a blob squad or standard infantry squad. You do have a decent point if you give the opponent too many options, but in that case your vets probably aren't close enough to do their thing. I definitely see you as an authority on foot Guard though, and while it's never worked for me I'd be willing to see a battle report where you try it out.

Kasrkin229 wrote: you know i run Plasma vets and that works fine for me ,........ stick em in a chimera .....

Plasma vets are still damn effective, just not quite as points-efficient as meltavets.

Well with your melta guns i can kill half of your force from range before you even getinto range , i see the advantages and dis advantatges but i stand by plasma .....most weapons in my army are strenght 7

more importantly, the idea of killing meltavets before they get into your lines misses the point of vets. No small unit with expensive, dangerous, short-ranged weapons will survive running across a field before they get there. It's just as true about SWSs and PCSs as with vets. Unless you've got a sneaky way to get there, like deepstriking or outflanking (in this case, in a valkyrie), your opponent is just going to be able to react too effectively.

No, veterans are defensive units. They exist to bring concentrated firepower to where your opponent is attacking the most. Your opponents bring the targets to your vets, not the other way around. Having a chimera allows vets to do this a bit more effectively, but it will not allow them to win a highland charge trying to get into range of stuff on the other side of the board.

Platoons give you more weapon options, and the numbers to survive said charge (and the ability to be good in close combat, unlike most vets), which makes them the offensive troops choice of the codex (once again, outside of vets in valks). The vets are there as a reactive force to whatever they're sending to counter your attack. To use an american football analogy, they're your offense's tight end.

Something they can certainly do on foot.

Ailaros, after reading through your battlle reports, I have to say, your well dressed Ogryns are fabulous.

Guarder22 wrote:OKay this has been bugging me for a while, why is there so much scorn for any guard player who doesn't run veterans as chimeltas. It seems like everywhere I go that is all I see and anytime someone runs something different they are always told that it is a waste of points and that they are wasting the veterans BS.

Now I really don't understand what all the hype is about, I used to run chimeltas and I didn't get much use out of them in fact I was fairly disappointed after all of the hype. But my prefered build using shotguns, flamers, forward sentries, and a powerfist in a chimera, which have made up more than their points worth for the last ten games I have played, is called a waste.

Maybe you guys can explain why that is. Am I just extremely lucky with my build or are people just hating on non chimelta vets because they are different from what everyone else is running?

Veterans gain their worth from their enhanced weapons choices and additional ballistic skill, and being able to be very specialized and capable at one role for a very low cost. Your Fist/Sentry/Flamers/Shotguns unit is a rather specialized assault unit, but it is rather expensive for what it does and you could likely achieve the same results with fewer points and without having to engage in the IG's least capable arena (assault). Lets say you try and have this unit engage a bare bones 10 strong CSM squad with no upgrades, only a few points more. Lets say all 3 flamer templates land 8 hits, and you get off all your shotgun and sergeant pistol shots, on average that'll mean 4-5 CSM's dead. You follow up with an assault. The remaining CSM's on average kill 3 guys. Your remaining dudes assuming the powerfist lives, will on average kill 2 back. You lose combat by 1, forcing an LD test at 7, standing a very good chance of getting swept and destroyed. If you stand and fight it out, the next turn on average the CSM's kill 2 and you kill 1 and you have to take an Ld7 test again or get swept.

Even under optimal circumstances against such a unit, you're often looking either mutually assured destruction against a similarly costed foe, or a high chance of destruction for only partial destruction of the enemy. This is fine when they're cheap crappy guardsmen that cost 33% of what their opponents cost, not so much when you cost 85% of what your opponents cost. Granted, against other, less heavily armored units, you may have more success, but IG excel at destroying such units with tons of low and medium strength firepower.

Vets are very easily destroyed without mechanization, they aren't expendable like basic guard troops and are highly prioritized by opposing players for destruction and die like normal guardsmen.

Chimeras synergize extremely well with vets. They can sit in the tank, the tank can shoot, they can move around in it and shoot out of it. This makes it difficult to get at the fragile troops inside, who can then scoot up to a favored target and blast it with a relatively large number of decent BS weaponry. They can also employ tank shocks to remove opponents from objective and claim them themselves or push them into position to be fired on better. Both units help make each other more effective.

Flamers you can get on just about any IG platform. For the cost of the Veteran unit you have set up, you could get nearly 3 3x Flamer platoon based Special Weapon squads, two AC/GL infantry squads with some spare points, or nearly Chimelta vet squad. The SWS's are going to have much more firepower, the AC/GL squads are going to have more total firepower and range and be able to sustain greater casualties and engage a greater array of foes, the chimeltavet squad still has a fearsome flamer template and another gun on top of being an AV12 tank and 3 meltaguns to bust tanks/engage big tough things with.


If your setup works in your games against your opponents and you have fun, then great, what does it matter what anyone else says? That said, at competitive levels such unit setups quickly become apparently sub-optimal and ruthlessly extirpated from army lists.

I like my plasma vets but with so many wraiths lately in my area. I need str 8 or better. one fail save instead of 2 makes a huge difference. I ran out of melta guns however as steel legion doesn't have a model with it and I don't have enough bits >.<

My problem with mech lists is that their is so much str 7 plus out there. Your chimeras will blow up left and right. I lose almost every chimera when i go all mech. And my vendettas are just as dead. The meta is so anti vehicle due to the popularity of mech.

However, when i switch over to foot guard, you trade in all that moblity for surviviblity. That expensive anti tank gun kills a single guardsman. Your psyleman can at best kill 4 guardsman (realistically 2 due to cover) instead of a chimera.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:My problem with mech lists is that their is so much str 7 plus out there. Your chimeras will blow up left and right. I lose almost every chimera when i go all mech. And my vendettas are just as dead. The meta is so anti vehicle due to the popularity of mech.

However, when i switch over to foot guard, you trade in all that moblity for surviviblity. That expensive anti tank gun kills a single guardsman. Your psyleman can at best kill 4 guardsman (realistically 2 due to cover) instead of a chimera.

O_o

How are you losing so many vehicles so fast? Are you only fielding a few vehicles? At most tournament points levels I'm usually fielding 15 tanks. Few opponents have an easy time engaging that much armor. Foot infantry are relatively easily destroyed by a couple decent assault units getting into a line, I've seen many a time, and done so myself, where a single squad Troop squad (such as say, CSM's) can multi-engage three IG units and clear a flank in one decent assault.

Vaktathi wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:My problem with mech lists is that their is so much str 7 plus out there. Your chimeras will blow up left and right. I lose almost every chimera when i go all mech. And my vendettas are just as dead. The meta is so anti vehicle due to the popularity of mech.

However, when i switch over to foot guard, you trade in all that moblity for surviviblity. That expensive anti tank gun kills a single guardsman. Your psyleman can at best kill 4 guardsman (realistically 2 due to cover) instead of a chimera.

O_o

How are you losing so many vehicles so fast? Are you only fielding a few vehicles? At most tournament points levels I'm usually fielding 15 tanks. Few opponents have an easy time engaging that much armor. Foot infantry are relatively easily destroyed by a couple decent assault units getting into a line, I've seen many a time, and done so myself, where a single squad Troop squad (such as say, CSM's) can multi-engage three IG units and clear a flank in one decent assault.

If its a power blob I've actually seen the opposite. My 40 man blobs with power weapons and commissar with pw have beaten 20 grey hunters, or 5 TH/SS termies in combat or held up a seer council for 4 full game turns while the rest of the infantry go to town on their non CC elements allownig me to ruin their flanks.


Regarding the guy who asked to see Vs MEQ battles some of mine are below.

http://blobguard.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/warpcon-game-5.html shows the grey hunters battle,

http://blobguard.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/arkham-game-1.html Vs Deathwing

http://blobguard.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/arkham-autumn-annihilation-round-4.html shows the termies battle (Space marines)

http://blobguard.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/arkham-autumn-annihilation-round-5.html Vs dragowing, although I admit it was shooting more which kept him away.


I'm not saying I'm awesome with them as stil learning, but they have held up very well vs everything I've faced bar when I made tactical errors. So Vets aren't essential for guard troops, and platoons def aren't bad when you run them right.

Power blobs are different yes, but they're also more vulnerable to enemy shooting than masses of smaller squads (especially stacking flamer templates) and often give up lots of flexibility of fire (having to have multiple units in effect fire at one target often resulting in overkill or wasted weapons that otherwise wouldn't be wasted or wouldn't matter) that makes them less effective shooting platforms as well.


That said, I totally agree that Vets aren't mandatory, I myself don't use them in most games. Usually I run 2 or 3 mechanized platoons (run 4 meltas on the PCS that engages enemy armor and tough things in a ML/HF chimera, and 2 AC/GL squads to sit back and shoot at range in ML/HB chimeras)

I do agree to a point with you Vaktathi, but for enemy shooting still coversaves means you keep a fair few alive. I'm still proud of keping half my army alive Vs a Dark Eldar venom spam list. hiding in cover really helped lessen the damage.

Ailaros wrote:

Testify wrote:Platoon guard have a chronic lack of special weapons. You can't pretend SWS make up for this when you have to buy the whole other blob with it first.

For 1000 points, with just veterans in chimeras, you can put down 18 special weapons. With 1000 points with platoons, you can put down 32, and that's assuming that you want good special weapons like melta and plasma, if 5-point weapons are introduced, it goes up even more.

You're comparing troops in transports to troops not in transports. I'd take 18 meched special weapons (BS4 too) over 32 fleshy BS3 ones, especially since they'll probably be in small squads (PCS, SWTs) too.

Ailaros wrote:

Testify wrote:Anyway if you'd like to show some example of how platoons/non veterans can bring down MEQs and light armour, I'd be genuinely interested to hear it. Nobody wants to play horde guard more than me, but it just doesn't work.

Sure. So here is my most recent set of battle reports. If you want to see a foot list clobber an all-termie list, go here, and to see a foot list beat up a mech list designed specifically to be good against it, click here.

Obviously, it's not perfect, as there are loose variables in play (luck isn't controlled for, for example), but there are some examples of what a foot list can do.

Blobs are something of a hard counter for termies, since termies are designed to pop vehicles and elite infantry, not hordes.
I must say I do find Al Rahem useful. Outflanking a blob right on top of my enemy, practically guaranteeing the charge, with four (possibly twin-linked) special weapons to boot, is pretty awesome.
It's a shame that all blobs can't be thrown in the enemy's face like that or I'd be foot guard every time.

Testify wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

Testify wrote:Platoon guard have a chronic lack of special weapons. You can't pretend SWS make up for this when you have to buy the whole other blob with it first.

For 1000 points, with just veterans in chimeras, you can put down 18 special weapons. With 1000 points with platoons, you can put down 32, and that's assuming that you want good special weapons like melta and plasma, if 5-point weapons are introduced, it goes up even more.

You're comparing troops in transports to troops not in transports. I'd take 18 meched special weapons (BS4 too) over 32 fleshy BS3 ones, especially since they'll probably be in small squads (PCS, SWTs) too.

Also don't forget the 12 multilasers/heavy bolters/heavy flamers for the mechanized troops, that's quite a bit of firepower that can't be discounted either.

Vaktathi wrote:

Testify wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

Testify wrote:Platoon guard have a chronic lack of special weapons. You can't pretend SWS make up for this when you have to buy the whole other blob with it first.

For 1000 points, with just veterans in chimeras, you can put down 18 special weapons. With 1000 points with platoons, you can put down 32, and that's assuming that you want good special weapons like melta and plasma, if 5-point weapons are introduced, it goes up even more.

You're comparing troops in transports to troops not in transports. I'd take 18 meched special weapons (BS4 too) over 32 fleshy BS3 ones, especially since they'll probably be in small squads (PCS, SWTs) too.

Also don't forget the 12 multilasers/heavy bolters/heavy flamers for the mechanized troops, that's quite a bit of firepower that can't be discounted either.

It can because most of those chimera's are needing to move up the full distance or else they'll get shot to pieces, as people expect them to move up to try and hit melta range.

Testify wrote:I must say I do find Al Rahem useful. Outflanking a blob right on top of my enemy, practically guaranteeing the charge, with four (possibly twin-linked) special weapons to boot, is pretty awesome.
It's a shame that all blobs can't be thrown in the enemy's face like that or I'd be foot guard every time.

I've used him alot and found a 40 man blob with meltaguns, sgts with meltabombs and Pw plus a commi with pw, Al's command squad with 4 meltas and a SWS with 3 meltas to be a great flank ruiner. walk on 6, issue orders usually like the wind to the blob ire just the meltas and move as far forward as possible towards the vehicles contents you just blew up, or the squad and then assault, AL's PC do the same or Bring it down on another vehicle (and are hidden partly by the blob to stop charges on them, and the SWS try to blow up another squad or transport. The opponent has to deal with this while the other blobs are moving up to his lines.

Giving Creed to the army as well and making a second blob outflank could be really funny.

Or making a full outflank guard army.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
It can because most of those chimera's are needing to move up the full distance or else they'll get shot to pieces, as people expect them to move up to try and hit melta range.

If they're moving at full speed then the guns inside aren't shooting either. Quite often they can sit back and wait for the opponent to come to them, or advance at combat speed utilizing the chimeras weapons while they position themselves.

You typically don't see chimera lists of any kind throwing all their units straight forward at full speed, especially for more than 1 turn.

And by the same token, all those special weapons are typically short ranged and only get in a couple turns of fire themselves.


Either way, those weapons are there, often utilized, and should in no way be discounted.

Vaktathi wrote:

Testify wrote:You're comparing troops in transports to troops not in transports. I'd take 18 meched special weapons (BS4 too) over 32 fleshy BS3 ones, especially since they'll probably be in small squads (PCS, SWTs) too.

Also don't forget the 12 multilasers/heavy bolters/heavy flamers for the mechanized troops, that's quite a bit of firepower that can't be discounted either.

Taking 6 10-man squads and 6 transports gives you roughly the same KP as the thousand points in infantry platoon stuff, except that some of the infantry stuff comes on stubborn squads that dont' instantly blow away like a fart on the breeze to close combat like vets and chimeras do, and it's really easy for infantry to get cover saves all the time (that they can go to ground in), whereas with vehicles you've got to get more creative. The infantry is way more durable here.

Furthermore, if you're going to talk about heavy weapons then the infantry walks away with this one as well, as there are WAY more heavy weapon slots available, and the infantry isn't stuck with turret multilasers and hull heavy bolters - they can take real heavy weapons like lascannons and autocannons.

You get less firepower, less close combat power, fewer scoring units, and overall less durability. What makes vets worth taking is that they are able to project short range firepower into midrange (something that infantry can't do) and they are able to take better HS slots due to the synergy of AV12 spam. Mech lists are very competitive, but to just blatantly dismiss the foot alternative as non-competitive when the numbers point to the opposite is still baffling to me.

I find myself agreeing with Ailaros on this topic. Mech is still very competitive but you cant dismiss foot.

What makes me wonder is that Ive seen alot of batreps and it seems that most tables have very few peices of terrain, which will make mech better, due to lack of cover for the boots. Even at 25% terrain there is more then enough cover for foot to advance. With this in mind would mech be as strong if there was more terrain on the table?

Ailaros wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Testify wrote:You're comparing troops in transports to troops not in transports. I'd take 18 meched special weapons (BS4 too) over 32 fleshy BS3 ones, especially since they'll probably be in small squads (PCS, SWTs) too.

Also don't forget the 12 multilasers/heavy bolters/heavy flamers for the mechanized troops, that's quite a bit of firepower that can't be discounted either.

Taking 6 10-man squads and 6 transports gives you roughly the same KP as the thousand points in infantry platoon stuff, except that some of the infantry stuff comes on stubborn squads that dont' instantly blow away like a fart on the breeze to close combat like vets and chimeras do, and it's really easy for infantry to get cover saves all the time (that they can go to ground in), whereas with vehicles you've got to get more creative. The infantry is way more durable here.

Methinks you're overestimating the ease with which opposing players can destroy AV12 vehicles and underestimating the power of target saturation, with those 6 vets there's likely (in a 1500-2000pt game) a good number of other tanks as well, probably a company command squad in a chimera and FA/HS tanks as well. It's usually much more difficult for opponents, at least in my experience, to crack open a bunch of AV12 tanks and engage the infantry inside than to just engage infantry even if more numerous.

this is also assuming that decent cover exists for the infantry, not true by any means even on boards with a proper terrain setup depending on deployment zone/deployment type, in addition to an investment in blob squads which have concentration of firepower issues as noted above.

Furthermore, if you're going to talk about heavy weapons then the infantry walks away with this one as well, as there are WAY more heavy weapon slots available, and the infantry isn't stuck with turret multilasers and hull heavy bolters - they can take real heavy weapons like lascannons and autocannons.

I was talking about the comparison above, if you want to talk absolutes sure infantry have more heavy weapons options, but the infantry heavy weapons units significantly easier to destroy/break (kill 1 T3 W2 model, force Ld7 test), can't move and fire anything and can't reposition up to 12" in one turn, and are particularly screwed/less useful in Dawn of War games more often than not.

You get less firepower, less close combat power, fewer scoring units, and overall less durability. What makes vets worth taking is that they are able to project short range firepower into midrange (something that infantry can't do) and they are able to take better HS slots due to the synergy of AV12 spam. Mech lists are very competitive, but to just blatantly dismiss the foot alternative as non-competitive when the numbers point to the opposite is still baffling to me.

I'm not dismissing them, however I believe you're overestimating the strengths of the infantry and making too much of the mechanized armies weaknesses. Infantry armies are far more vulnerable to assaults if not blob squads, and if they're blob squads then their firepower is mitigated to an extent, while infantry based heavy weapons are probably some of the least cost effective/easiest to destroy/least mobile weapons platforms in the IG army.

There's a reason above and beyond cost of models why mechanized armies are highly popular. Infantry armies aren't awful, but they aren't on the same competitive level, at least in my experience. I've yet to see, play as or against one in 5E that was able to match a mechanized list. The weaknesses of the HWS's (cost and durability issues), vulnerability to assaults (especially with everything and its dead mother able to flank these days), low mobility, and quite often Dawn of War games where they get to do little if anything turn 1 (especially lacking lots of searchlights quite often) and being unable to deploy in decent positions from the start and having to either make do with wherever they can get to turn 1 or waste another turn or two getting into better positions, along with the increasingly common availability of cover ignoring anti-infantry weapons, conspires to really make infantry spam IG armies less effective than the mechanized armies.

Guarder22 wrote:OKay this has been bugging me for a while, why is there so much scorn for any guard player who doesn't run veterans as chimeltas. It seems like everywhere I go that is all I see and anytime someone runs something different they are always told that it is a waste of points and that they are wasting the veterans BS.

Now I really don't understand what all the hype is about, I used to run chimeltas and I didn't get much use out of them in fact I was fairly disappointed after all of the hype. But my prefered build using shotguns, flamers, forward sentries, and a powerfist in a chimera, which have made up more than their points worth for the last ten games I have played, is called a waste.

Maybe you guys can explain why that is. Am I just extremely lucky with my build or are people just hating on non chimelta vets because they are different from what everyone else is running?

It is simply the mentality that some people have. Period end of story. It comes from two different directions The first are the, well this works and with a BS of 4 is the ONLY way to go for your IG and doing anything else is stupid crowd. The second are the it is impossible to win using basic IG troops so why would you use anything by vets in the first place?

Of course I've seen plenty of IG basic troop armies well supported win games. I've also seen plenty of other different kit outs for vets that work just fine as well. When facing other horde armies that double melta kit out just doesn't work. Oooo...I can vape 2 targets *if I hit* or I can drop in 2 flames and a heavy flamer and remove the *if I hit* aspect completely from the equation. The extra heavy flamer option is why I really like Vet squads in all honesty. I do like that IG can now run with all vets, but there is no "perfect" kit that works 100% against every enemy army on the table every time.

Skriker

Vakathi wrote:I'm not dismissing them, however I believe you're overestimating the strengths of the infantry and making too much of the mechanized armies weaknesses.

Oh boy...

I can see where this is going...

Every Guardsman General with Hybrid lists seek your bomb shelters! I'll take my list into the bunker where all of Ailaros' Command Staff are. I hear there's a swimming pool and a Bachi Ball Court, and the staff have their own seperate rooms!

I have great with foot-guard and atleast 1 Vendetta outflanking. It's a good slip of the enemy resources. I have indeed found Melta Vets in Chimeras also lack-luster. However, I have at times fielded vets with a Lascannon to take use of their BS4.