Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

SickSix wrote:

Like I said, their fates are known. And while not outright confirmed, it's pretty heavily hinted that Russ was involved in killing/destroying on of them (the Lost).
I personally postulate that something was wrong with the other primarch(the Forgotten), like he didn't develop fully, or was mutated by chaos during his magical trip through the warp as a baby, and when the Emperor found him put the poor kid out of his misery and his legion was absorbed by the Ultramarines.

.

This was my thoughts as well.The UM were freaking huge with little explanation as to just why.

There's plenty of justification. It's been part of the fluff since 2nd Edition actually. The Ultramarines were extremely organized and efficient, conquering many worlds and quickly rebuilding them to stable and functional conditions. Thus they had a very large base to draw recruits and supplies from, and they cranked out marines like nobody's business. Their methods of war were also clinically precise, allowing them to take planets with minimal casualties. Greater than average recruitment minus lower than average casualty rate equals more marines than any other legion. That's exactly how the 2nd edition Ultramarine codex described it.

The off-hand remark in First Heretic is pretty obviously (to me anyway) an insulting rumor born out of the Word Bearers' hatred of the Ultramarines. You can take it how you like, but don't say there's no other explanation for the Ultras' size.

-Loki- wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:

Decio wrote:I've seen a few people use their imaginations to create the lost primarchs,

'Lost' doesn't necessarily mean destroyed. they could be the first
'lost and damned' (chaos marines) or they could be floundering in the warp
or they could be having a party in a 'secret place (grey knights anyone?)' on Terra

Maybe they're the legion of the damned?
LEGION of the damned.
Seems possible.

The Legion of the Damned have (unfortunately) had their mysterious past revealed. They're the Fire Hawks chapter. Well, ex-Fire Hawks chapter.

I wish GW wouldn't reveal things like that.

oh. Too bad!

If you really delve into the fluff of warhammer fantasy, the human empire in that had one of the missing primarchs. Thats how they made such a huge empire, it was under his guidance. The world in warhammer fantasy is caught in a warp storm in 40k, they did this fluff piece where a priest went insane and wrote a book, inside it there was a chaos space marine.

Skal098 wrote:If you really delve into the fluff of warhammer fantasy, the human empire in that had one of the missing primarchs. Thats how they made such a huge empire, it was under his guidance. The world in warhammer fantasy is caught in a warp storm in 40k, they did this fluff piece where a priest went insane and wrote a book, inside it there was a chaos space marine.

I have always been a big fan of the "WFB is on a world somewhere in the 40k galaxy" fluff.

Unfortunately I think, though, that GW has been moving away from that since 2nd (?) or 3rd (?) edition 40k and it is no longer canon (or at least no longer relevant).

Skal098 wrote:If you really delve into the fluff of warhammer fantasy, the human empire in that had one of the missing primarchs. Thats how they made such a huge empire, it was under his guidance. The world in warhammer fantasy is caught in a warp storm in 40k, they did this fluff piece where a priest went insane and wrote a book, inside it there was a chaos space marine.

Yeah I'm pretty sure they've specifically come out and retconned that idea, cool as it would be though. If Sigmar were to show up and take control of the Ultras? Pshhh... Might actually play a smurf army then.

Decio wrote:The Ultramarines were off fighting somewhere else in the galaxy; large numbers left alive.
Then they returned to 'take over' (re-stabilize is what they call it) the Imperium.

I kinda wish the Ultramarines would lose horrendously for once instead of
winning through heroic crap and tactics that could rival Creed's genius.

Yeah, sometimes the Ultramarines can come across a bit... Obnoxious...

"Look at me, because I wear blue armour and I'm kinda descended from this Rubberboot Gullywash, that makes me the BEST MARINE EVAR."

Well, they didn't exactly do the superman routine in "Know no fear".



As for the two missing legions, it feels like over the years the blank-spaced mystery around them gets nipped away. I assume they are Space-Elvis, and Space-D.B. Cooper.

The book with the insane priest in fantasy is Liber Chaotica, and bloody good it is too.
I always theorized that the two lost Primarchs were Sigmar and Gilles Le Breton myself...

all we really know is that one:
the space wolves were called on to fight em both, russ says something about it in one of the HH books and 2:
in the third hh book i think it is when horus see's the gene chambers under the himalayas he looks at one of the primarchs and thinks about "what will never be", ragefaces and smashes it.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

SickSix wrote:

Like I said, their fates are known. And while not outright confirmed, it's pretty heavily hinted that Russ was involved in killing/destroying on of them (the Lost).
I personally postulate that something was wrong with the other primarch(the Forgotten), like he didn't develop fully, or was mutated by chaos during his magical trip through the warp as a baby, and when the Emperor found him put the poor kid out of his misery and his legion was absorbed by the Ultramarines.

.

This was my thoughts as well.The UM were freaking huge with little explanation as to just why.

Its in the marines codex. It states that macragge game them an incredibly large recruitment base filling the ranks of the legion during the great crusade and even now as a chapter allow them to always have stable numbers. This is also possible due to their incredibly stable Gene Seed.

Thank ya, that I did not know. I do not own that Codex. what i know is from online wikis,novels and the like. Or what I track down.

Spoilers from the HH series

Maybe following the Tarot link earlier in the thread, the High Priestess, the Psyker observer, equal of Magnus but passive in nature. Maybe this one, this observer was driven insane watching the Empyrean and possibly glimpsing the future in the strange time fluxes. This insanity destroyed the observer's mind over time and the Primarch was put to the sword of out of mercy (by Russ). Those Legion astartes were mind wiped and amalgamated into the Ultramarines.

In my personal view, I think this Watchers of the Void would be a good starting point.

So based on the Attributes above I thought of the word "Sentinel" as summing this up. So..

Primarch name= Sentinel = Watcher = VIGIL (in latin).

Primarch VIGIL of the IMPERIAL SENTINELS.

Nice idea, and a way of being Creative with the Pre-heresy stuff. Maybe they are talented in Passive Psyker skills, like the one where you have to re-roll invulnerables or force dome etc,

I posted a theory about the missing two legions a long time ago... and I still find it interesting that 2 plus 11 equals 13, the number of the Ultramarines Legion. I had many other references to support my reasoning (not to mention the opinion of certain members of the Wordbearer legion) but I wont bore anyone with that here. I thought it was cool though.

Eh, so much for my opinion.

Still, nothing has been written about these two Legions other than what has been metioned thus far.

Back in the good ol' days of simplistic fluff to support a miniatures wargame, the missing two legions were just blank slates to support a DIY Legion and fluff. Now, as more and more fluff is written and many of those novels enter the New York Times best sellers list, the fluff will deepen and we may see more and more holes filled in... possibly much to the chagrin of many fans and a dramatic increase in the use of anti-depressants...

mwnciboo wrote:Maybe following the Tarot link earlier in the thread, the High Priestess, the Psyker observer, equal of Magnus but passive in nature. Maybe this one, this observer was driven insane watching the Empyrean and possibly glimpsing the future in the strange time fluxes. This insanity destroyed the observer's mind over time and the Primarch was put to the sword of out of mercy (by Russ). Those Legion astartes were mind wiped and amalgamated into the Ultramarines.

In my personal view, I think this Watchers of the Void would be a good starting point.

So based on the Attributes above I thought of the word "Sentinel" as summing this up. So..

Primarch name= Sentinel = Watcher = VIGIL (in latin).

Primarch VIGIL of the IMPERIAL SENTINELS.

Nice idea, and a way of being Creative with the Pre-heresy stuff. Maybe they are talented in Passive Psyker skills, like the one where you have to re-roll invulnerables or force dome etc,

I like the name Imperial Sentinels. Not huge fan of the name Vigil though. What's interesting is one of the negative traits for the High Priestess is as a tempter of irresistible goals. Yet at the same time, his purpose is described as being able to give people a sense of belonging in the wider sceme of things. In particular, his close relationship with Lorgar is one that may have been hinted at in TFH and makes one wonder at how the loss of the two primarchs could've affected the Heresy.

Okay then VIGILUS or an alternative name based on this viewing or watching in Greek/Latin.

"Angel" = Greek Angelos, Latin Aneglus, Coptic malah.

"The Grigori" from Greek egrgoroi, "The Watchers". So maybe "Grigori"?

Nrljm wrote:Wow wish there was more about these two legions... Is there Any info on these two primarchs that were removed?

They've never existed.

In fact, it seems likely that there is actually no existing back story for them at Games Workshop, only a flat rule that says they cannot be talked about, other than indirectly.


Though, originally, Rick Priestley said the intention behind the missing two Legions was that their names were expunged as a reward, not as a punishment. So the two "missing" legions were actually still in existence, only under a different name to cover for the fact that they initially sided with Horus. It is important to note that that back story is effectively impossible with the modern fiction, and Priestley's statement predates most of the established fluff for the Horus Heresy, making it useless.


The bottom line is, there are no 2nd and 11th Legions. They exist merely as a line that says they don't exist anymore. That's why all the HH books have somewhat conflicting information on them, or in some cases, characters making baseless speculations.

I think that they would of been executed by Leman Russ and the Space Wolves then removed from the records.

They were likely removed to allow players to create their own legions...

IMO, GW threw them in to create mystery and speculation, maybe as a future opening for selling a new range of models, though that's just personal opinion withiouut much in the way of proof.

Nrljm wrote:What exactly do we know about the two legions that are deleted from the IoM records?

I mean did they have their own primarch? Anyone hve any info on why they were deleted from IOM records and what not?

Wow , I just remembered something. During the first horus heresy book ( I believe) the primarch of the XI legion came to light during a dream induced by the forces of chaos for Horus. To remember exactly what was said I looked it up. "He stopped by the tank with XI stenciled upon it ... feeling the untapped glories that might have lain ahead for what grew within, but knowing that they would never come to pass." Hm... Interesting, yes?

I think that's the Primarch that was killed in his pod when scattered by the Chaos Gods.

In the deathwatch there are certain members know as black shields, who never reveal their origin or chapter, think its possible some of the old legions still are around to take up these titles?

Wild wrote:In the deathwatch there are certain members know as black shields, who never reveal their origin or chapter, think its possible some of the old legions still are around to take up these titles?

Not really. Those are loyalist marines that were expelled from their chapters (Black Templars abhor psychers, as an example) or are on a personal quest for pentance or similar reasons.

During the HH, there are no surviving members of the lost legions. Why would there be 10k years later?

I guess a part of me is really hoping for the angry marines to be an actual legion too lol.

Wild wrote:I guess a part of me is really hoping for the angry marines to be an actual legion too lol.

makes sense, they were so aggressive they were uncontrollable, and destroyed like a rogue/ feral dog.

Skal098 wrote:If you really delve into the fluff of warhammer fantasy, the human empire in that had one of the missing primarchs. Thats how they made such a huge empire, it was under his guidance. The world in warhammer fantasy is caught in a warp storm in 40k, they did this fluff piece where a priest went insane and wrote a book, inside it there was a chaos space marine.

Do you have evidence of this? very interesting

Nrljm wrote:What exactly do we know about the two legions that are deleted from the IoM records?

I mean did they have their own primarch? Anyone hve any info on why they were deleted from IOM records and what not?

As of now we know a little short of nothing about them. But there is the fact the Emperor had 20 sons so then they must be some place still in space possibly on some feral or feudal world but anything about the legions or there respective primarchs nada.

GW is set on not flushing them out purely for people to make their own chapters/legions. So really there is no reason to speculate..

riverhawks32 wrote:GW is set on not flushing them out purely for people to make their own chapters/legions. So really there is no reason to speculate..

Um, NO. Where have you been for the last couple years? The new HH books have removed all possibility of making DIY chapters off of the the II and XI legions.


It would help if some of you actually read the rest of the posts so you don't repeat refuted statements/arguments.