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There's a lot of vague information and speculation on the II and XI Legions in this thread.

If anyone is actually up to date with the series, they'll know that they were described as "gone" and "beyond our reach", respectively.

Russ and his Legion were hinted to have been unleashed on one before the events of A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns, and it was also suggested that "Guilleman's ranks were bolstered as a result".

Miraclefish wrote: and it was also suggested that "Guilleman's ranks were bolstered as a result".

This was also shot down by ADB as just being a rumor the Word Bearers came up with to try and explain how The Ultramarine legion could've gotten so big, so fast. It is not what happened to the missing legions.

The Lightning Tower also mentions them, when Rogal Dorn and says to Malcador he wishes they were here to help against Horus. Malcador says "Don't even think it" (I para-phrase it but thats it broad brush)

Right but, beyond hints and vague information, the two legions will never be flushed out...I mean I can't see GW ever telling us about them in detail such as Primarchs,fighting style, why they were expunged etc. Just look at how the plot has been forwarded...not much.

riverhawks32 wrote:Right but, beyond hints and vague information, the two legions will never be flushed out...I mean I can't see GW ever telling us about them in detail such as Primarchs,fighting style, why they were expunged etc. Just look at how the plot has been forwarded...not much.

Don't be so sure. What happened to the Dark Angels deep dark secret?

I am hopeful that 6th edition may surprise a lot of people. I think GW might surprise a lot of the 'fluff advancement' naysayers. But I don't expect much.

I would like the hints and insinuating about the II and XI to continue in the HH books, but I hope they never come right out and say it.

I know that no one believes that the two missing legions leave space for DIY....but I do as GW is completely money oriented and that is the perfect scape goat for them to keep you guessing and buying *gasp* space marines.

One primarch may possibly be named Rubinek

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:One primarch may possibly be named Rubinek

Myth Busted= http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=190503

Brother Thomas wrote:

Skal098 wrote:If you really delve into the fluff of warhammer fantasy, the human empire in that had one of the missing primarchs. Thats how they made such a huge empire, it was under his guidance. The world in warhammer fantasy is caught in a warp storm in 40k, they did this fluff piece where a priest went insane and wrote a book, inside it there was a chaos space marine.

Do you have evidence of this? very interesting

This is very, very, very old out of date fluff before GW established actual canon universal laws to their game systems. It used to be rumoured that sigmar was a primarch, as they used a similar entrance to that of the primarches (fell from the sky), although this was a back addition as WFB predates 40K. However after GW stabilised their games, due to wanting to be a larger company they have completely seperated the two systems.

This theory would also be debunked by the new Horus Heresy fluff which tells us that the other primarches have at least met and know of the missing two. If the above theory were true the Emperor would have destroyed the fantasy world completely due to it being corrupted.

SickSix wrote:

riverhawks32 wrote:GW is set on not flushing them out purely for people to make their own chapters/legions. So really there is no reason to speculate..

Um, NO. Where have you been for the last couple years? The new HH books have removed all possibility of making DIY chapters off of the the II and XI legions.


It would help if some of you actually read the rest of the posts so you don't repeat refuted statements/arguments.

THANK YOU

I make the second post explaining a bunch of stuff about them and 4 post later people are posting information that is wrong and I even said in my post that the information is wrong dont post it yet they do it anyways

Galdos wrote:

SickSix wrote:

riverhawks32 wrote:GW is set on not flushing them out purely for people to make their own chapters/legions. So really there is no reason to speculate..

Um, NO. Where have you been for the last couple years? The new HH books have removed all possibility of making DIY chapters off of the the II and XI legions.


It would help if some of you actually read the rest of the posts so you don't repeat refuted statements/arguments.

THANK YOU

I make the second post explaining a bunch of stuff about them and 4 post later people are posting information that is wrong and I even said in my post that the information is wrong dont post it yet they do it anyways

There is also the fact that it makes no logical sense anyway, the fact that the two legions were expunged would make making a fluff workable current legion impossible if it were loyal and rediculous if it were chaos (why would the chaos legions keep their existance quite). The real reason they were creared expunged is thst they are a story device.

Nrljm wrote:Wow wish there was more about these two legions... Is there Any info on these two primarchs that were removed?

You do realise that they're only interesting because they're unknown, right?

Brother Thomas wrote:

Skal098 wrote:If you really delve into the fluff of warhammer fantasy, the human empire in that had one of the missing primarchs. Thats how they made such a huge empire, it was under his guidance. The world in warhammer fantasy is caught in a warp storm in 40k, they did this fluff piece where a priest went insane and wrote a book, inside it there was a chaos space marine.

Do you have evidence of this? very interesting

It was never more than a fan theory, based upon some vague inferences from Sigmar's backstory.

GreatGunz wrote:Maybe they're the legion of the damned?
LEGION of the damned.
Seems possible.

At the time the Legion of the Damned first appeared in the fluff, the Space Marines were still called the Legiones Astartes, the whole business of the second founding and the legion/chapter distinction hadn't yet been written. So no, it hints nothing.

riverhawks32 wrote:GW is set on not flushing them out purely for people to make their own chapters/legions. So really there is no reason to speculate..

Back when the missing legions first appeared in the fluff (Epic Space Marine, 1989) it had not been established that there were only twenty legions, and only about fifteen had even been named, so no, there was never a need for this.

English Assassin wrote:You do realise that they're only interesting because they're unknown, right?

Quite right. It makes me sad every time a little of the mystery of the 40K universe is removed. That unknown quantity, that lack of understanding was a substantial part of what made the universe what it was for me, when I first got into it. The answers that have come out have never been as interesting as the mysteries.

For me, the total removal of the 'Deep Dark Secret' of the Dark Angels has pretty much destroyed any interest I had in them. I love some of their models, but I don't think I would ever use their models as DA or DA successors.


Edit: Also, if you are unaware of the origin of the LotD but love the mystery do not click on the below spoiler. But I do have to tell you that they are not the lost legions.

SickSix wrote:For me, the total removal of the 'Deep Dark Secret' of the Dark Angels has pretty much destroyed any interest I had in them. I love some of their models, but I don't think I would ever use their models as DA or DA successors.

You do realise it was originally a joke from when GW wasn't as serious about their fluff.
The original secret was that they were gay. It's all from some poem.

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

SickSix wrote:For me, the total removal of the 'Deep Dark Secret' of the Dark Angels has pretty much destroyed any interest I had in them. I love some of their models, but I don't think I would ever use their models as DA or DA successors.

You do realise it was originally a joke from when GW wasn't as serious about their fluff.
The original secret was that they were gay. It's all from some poem.

Whaaat? Could you supply said poem?

I can.

http://www.horrormasters.com/Text/a_217.pdf

It was written by the poet Lionel Johnson (Get it?). it's about his secret repression of his homosexual urges.

shrike wrote:IMO, GW threw them in to create mystery and speculation

Bingo.

Every single time someone asks this, this is the reason they give. It's NOT so you can fanwank out one of your own.

Platuan4th wrote:

shrike wrote:IMO, GW threw them in to create mystery and speculation

Bingo.

Every single time someone asks this, this is the reason they give. It's NOT so you can fanwank out one of your own.

I thought I remembered an interview where one of the authors said it WAS originally for the fanwankery, but they have kept it for the secrecy.

I'll look for it, no guarantees.

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

SickSix wrote:For me, the total removal of the 'Deep Dark Secret' of the Dark Angels has pretty much destroyed any interest I had in them. I love some of their models, but I don't think I would ever use their models as DA or DA successors.

You do realise it was originally a joke from when GW wasn't as serious about their fluff.
The original secret was that they were gay. It's all from some poem.

No, clearly I didn't realize and wow, that is... Lame? It's just pretty lame all around.

SickSix wrote:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

SickSix wrote:For me, the total removal of the 'Deep Dark Secret' of the Dark Angels has pretty much destroyed any interest I had in them. I love some of their models, but I don't think I would ever use their models as DA or DA successors.

You do realise it was originally a joke from when GW wasn't as serious about their fluff.
The original secret was that they were gay. It's all from some poem.

No, clearly I didn't realize and wow, that is... Lame? It's just pretty lame all around.

Rogue Trader-era comedy hasn't aged very well.

jareddm wrote:

SickSix wrote:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

SickSix wrote:For me, the total removal of the 'Deep Dark Secret' of the Dark Angels has pretty much destroyed any interest I had in them. I love some of their models, but I don't think I would ever use their models as DA or DA successors.

You do realise it was originally a joke from when GW wasn't as serious about their fluff.
The original secret was that they were gay. It's all from some poem.

No, clearly I didn't realize and wow, that is... Lame? It's just pretty lame all around.

Rogue Trader-era comedy hasn't aged very well.

Don't worry, the "original secret was homosexuality" business is itself fan myth - as, for that matter, is the notion that there was ever an actual mystery. The Dark Angels' fluff never included a "dark secret" until Codex: Angels of Death (for 2nd Ed), which both established its existence and immediately gave away all the details of Luthor and the Fallen.

Well, Lionel Johnson was a poet who composed "Dark Angel", a poem wherein vents his angst and Catholic guilt over his repressed homosexuality. The Dark Angel in this case, with all of its accompanying "aching lust" and "flames of evil ecstasy", is theorized by some critics to be one of several poems that rail against Oscar Wilde, who Lionel was all mad at because Oscar was banging Lionel's cousin.

Anyway, the actual 40K "dark secret" is that half of them turned against the Imperium/Johnson. It never was "removed", totally or otherwise. It's still very much a part of the gloomy bunch.

jareddm wrote:Okay, I'm putting this up because I find it extremely well written, but I must stress it as entirely fan-made and unofficial. That said, it's been extremely accurate in the information it provides considering how long ago it was written.

http://menducia.atspace.com/primarchs/I.html

It matches up each of the primarchs with one of the major arcana of the Tarot. It then uses these to extrapolate to the two missing primarchs to guess at what their personalities and interactions with other primarchs may have been. If you're interested, the missing primarchs are described under the High Priestess and Fortune.

I use this for my own personal headcanon considering it's accuracy is almost scary, but again, it's not official.

This is very cool. I too will be looking to this for all my unanswered lost Primarch needs.

SickSix wrote:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

SickSix wrote:For me, the total removal of the 'Deep Dark Secret' of the Dark Angels has pretty much destroyed any interest I had in them. I love some of their models, but I don't think I would ever use their models as DA or DA successors.

You do realise it was originally a joke from when GW wasn't as serious about their fluff.
The original secret was that they were gay. It's all from some poem.

No, clearly I didn't realize and wow, that is... Lame? It's just pretty lame all around.

I don't think there's any veracity to the story, nor was there ever a hidden "dark secret" since the back story to the Dark Angels dates back to the 2nd Edition Codex released in 1996, but the "Some Poem" is "The Dark Angel" by Lionel Johnson. And Johnson was believed to be gay.

Medium of Death wrote:

jareddm wrote:Okay, I'm putting this up because I find it extremely well written, but I must stress it as entirely fan-made and unofficial. That said, it's been extremely accurate in the information it provides considering how long ago it was written.

http://menducia.atspace.com/primarchs/I.html

It matches up each of the primarchs with one of the major arcana of the Tarot. It then uses these to extrapolate to the two missing primarchs to guess at what their personalities and interactions with other primarchs may have been. If you're interested, the missing primarchs are described under the High Priestess and Fortune.

I use this for my own personal headcanon considering it's accuracy is almost scary, but again, it's not official.

This is very cool. I too will be looking to this for all my unanswered lost Primarch needs.

Glad you like it. I found it years ago. It's funny how Russ is sometimes portrayed as sort of a party animal, when it might be that Fortune was the real party animal of the primarchs. I picture him sort of like the Sinbad of the Emperor's sons.

I'm currently reading A Thousand Sons, and there is a reference to the lost legions in there. Its on page 430, it is when the Thousand Sons are trying to learn more about Horus turning. Lord Ahriman is using the remembrancer Kallista to see the future, and she says this before dying.

"It's to late...the Wolf is at the door and it hungers for blood. Oh, Throne... no, the blood! The Ravens I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied! A brother betrayed a brother murdered."

IMO, sounds like one is betrayed and the other primarch is murdered, most likely by Russ, like everyone is thinking. My other thought is one of the Lost Legions is actually the Blood Ravens. I found this info about the Blood Ravens -

The precise Founding in which the Blood Ravens were created is unknown; their own chapter histories only begin in early M37, though other Imperial records contain some small references to the Chapter proving their existence before then. It is important to note that the Blood Ravens' histories are completely absent before the M37 date; they are not just spotty or fragmentary records. As a result, the Astartes of the Chapter know absolutely nothing about their origins, including having no knowledge of their primogenitor legion or primarch. - http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Blood_Ravens#Founding

Could be, they are deleted from the record and after so many millennium the Imperium brings them back as a Chapter. Just a theory.

No I don't think this is the case, though I like your reasoning and think that it is an unlikely possibility. I believe the Blood Ravens come from the 1k sons, hence their high number of psykers. Kallista may have been seeing the future and the past at the same time.

I can't believe anyone hasn't covered this yet but

http://sonsoftaurus.blogspot.com/2010/11/secrets-of-lost-space-marine-legions.html

This covers what happened to the two lost legions and where they went. Enjoy

Hehe, actually it wasn't the Imperial Bureaucracy it was when GW moved premises in Nottingham. Some young intern/YTS didn't know his Roman 2 from his Arabic 11, but otherwise spot on.