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I was talking this the other day with a mate.

For say SM, I can get a rifleman dreadnought. It's going to lay down and almost a guaranteed 3 hits, and will often net you 4, with its twin linked BS4.
For guard, you need FOUR heavy weapons bases to match that accuracy. A Hydra comes close by getting an average of 3 hits. But outside the Hydra and the silly russ variant, AC's in guard don't work terribly well. AC's require a weight of fire, and whilst you can spam AC's harder than anyone else, you need to spam 4 bases to get as effective as my 1 walker. That walker isn't static, unlike the HWT's, therefore its easier to redeploy, you can move to deny cover, you can move into cover and shoot, and it is harder to receive cover against it than the 4 bases. So it's not so much that you need to spam shots for autocannons to work, you need to spam hits for the autocannons low S to get the job done.

Towards the end of your paragraph it sounds like you are saying that HWT's cannot move. But I assume you meant that they cannot move and shoot. Just because marines get riflemen dreads and hit more often doesn't make the Guard bad necessarily.

Jihallah wrote: AC's require a weight of fire, and whilst you can spam AC's harder than anyone else, you need to spam 4 bases to get as effective as my 1 walker.

Only 4 Bases? That's 40 Points for the blob squads. A Heavy weapon squads worth of AC's is 75 Points. That's pennies to a guard player. How much does your walker cost?

That walker isn't static, unlike the HWT's, therefore its easier to redeploy, you can move to deny cover, you can move into cover and shoot, and it is harder to receive cover against it than the 4 bases. So it's not so much that you need to spam shots for autocannons to work, you need to spam hits for the autocannons low S to get the job done.

A 6" move isn't what I call 'easier to deploy'. Walkers are fat, ungainly things that deserve to get mulched. And that's also why Guard can have Orders, so they increase the hit ratio by have a Squad's AC's twin-linked.

schadenfreude wrote:I feel like 3 vendettas is enough LC for my IG army, especially when backed up by a manticore.

Melta can do any job a lascannon can do, usually with better results, but only at close range. Meltas come dirt cheap in an IG army.

So in a mechanized army with 3 vendettas, a manticore, and over a dozen melta guns I usually find my army doesn't have much of a need for more lascannon.

I don't have a huge need for AC either, but when crunch time hits during list creation it all comes down to the fact that I hate transports, Transports are usually about AV11. I can usually free up 30 or 40 points for a few ac to toss in without major sacrifice on other parts of the list. Freeing up 75 to 100 points is significantly more painful. IMO cost is everything, so I just stick with the AC so the vendettas are less likely to end up wasting lascannon shots on transports.

I usually free up 150 (2 Hydras).

I don't care what anyone says, they're worth it.

Clearly my point is being misread here.

Being able to be obscured from LOS then move and shoot in the same turn is an example of how a mobile HW is easier to maneuver than one that needs to be static. Or a priority target out of LOS but you step around that corner and fire upon it.

And its not that its 40p for a blob squad. It's that your blob squad is now having to decide "do i want to move, or sit and fire the 4 AC's? do I want to fire at infantry, or try and damage a vehicle?" added on top. The dread has one role it does, and does well. Compare a Hydra to an AC HWT. Same cost, but you get an armored hull for the same number of average hits and you deny flat out saves, and can move and fire as well. That is if we are looking at costs, which isn't the point.

And I said a 6" move to "redeploy". If you're not going to properly read my post and post aggressively in response, I think I'll just pop you on the ignore list

Although I've got to ask what the purpose of the comparison is at all. How does a different kind of unit in a different FO slot in a different army have any bearing on the efficacy of a weapon upgrade in the guard codex?

Jihallah wrote:And I said a 6" move to "redeploy". If you're not going to properly read my post and post aggressively in response, I think I'll just pop you on the ignore list.

Got for it, because you still don't make any sense.

KplKeegan wrote:

Jihallah wrote:And I said a 6" move to "redeploy". If you're not going to properly read my post and post aggressively in response, I think I'll just pop you on the ignore list.

Got for it, because you still don't make any sense.

Dude, it's pretty clear what he means. Nothing the IG can feild can move 6" and still put out as much fire as it could before it moved, other
than the Exterminator Russ variant. Meaning if you go with your blob example, if you move them, the ACs aren't shooting.

In short, the Dread in Jihallah's example is a superior platform to all but 1 IG choice. But then again, SM are almost always going to have better options.

alarmingrick wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:

Jihallah wrote:And I said a 6" move to "redeploy". If you're not going to properly read my post and post aggressively in response, I think I'll just pop you on the ignore list.

Got for it, because you still don't make any sense.

Dude, it's pretty clear what he means. Nothing the IG can feild can move 6" and still put out as much fire as it could before it moved, other
than the Exterminator Russ variant. Meaning if you go with your blob example, if you move them, the ACs aren't shooting.

In short, the Dread in Jihallah's example is a superior platform to all but 1 IG choice. But then again, SM are almost always going to have better options.

Oh. I must've derped up then. My bad.

Ailaros wrote:Although I've got to ask what the purpose of the comparison is at all. How does a different kind of unit in a different FO slot in a different army have any bearing on the efficacy of a weapon upgrade in the guard codex?

I don't want this to get skipped over when people read this thread. Let's continue with the original discussion.

I don't have my SM codex handy, how many points is a rifleman dread? As Allaros said, it's a silly comparison, and completely off topic.

Anyhoo, I may be swimming against the IG stream, but I do not like Hydras. For one thing, they require LOS, which means the bad guys get LOS on them. I never see them last, as they are an obvious target priority. Glass cannons always are. Second, and more importantly, they take up a Heavy Support choice, and I need those for my real tanks. In terms of survivability, offensive power, the chance to do something really amazing, and putting the Fear into your opponent, one LRBT > 2 Hydras.

Virtually all of my lists have 7 AC's and 4 LC's, at a minimum. 4 HWT bases in infantry squads, 3 AC scout sentinels, a Vendetta, and an LC in a CCS. Depending on points, opponent, etc. I usually sprinkle a few more in, via a 2nd Vendetta, more blobs, static vets, etc. I think both have their place, and are in no way falling by the wayside.

BB

The dread is also a elites/heavy support choice, not a scoring unit, and not a troops choice.

If you want to compare marines to guard for 170 points the marines get a 10 man tac squad with a ML and flamer, while IG gets a pair of infantry squads with 2 autocannons and a PCS with 4 flamers.

2 autocannons spitting out 4 shots math hammer's better than 1ML against AV10-12. 4 flamers also tend to math hammer better than 1 flamer.

beerbeard wrote:I never see them last, as they are an obvious target priority. Glass cannons always are. Second, and more importantly, they take up a Heavy Support choice, and I need those for my real tanks.

Right, so two things. Firstly, hydras are much more spammable than are russes. Secondly, AV12 HS slots (with barrage or no), make more sense in a mech list where all those chimera pawns can give cover saves to the HS slots behind them.

Hydras in a foot list are still kind of nice, but they're not required.

beerbeard wrote:I don't have my SM codex handy, how many points is a rifleman dread? As Allaros said, it's a silly comparison, and completely off topic.

Anyhoo, I may be swimming against the IG stream, but I do not like Hydras. For one thing, they require LOS, which means the bad guys get LOS on them. I never see them last, as they are an obvious target priority. Glass cannons always are. Second, and more importantly, they take up a Heavy Support choice, and I need those for my real tanks. In terms of survivability, offensive power, the chance to do something really amazing, and putting the Fear into your opponent, one LRBT > 2 Hydras.

Virtually all of my lists have 7 AC's and 4 LC's, at a minimum. 4 HWT bases in infantry squads, 3 AC scout sentinels, a Vendetta, and an LC in a CCS. Depending on points, opponent, etc. I usually sprinkle a few more in, via a 2nd Vendetta, more blobs, static vets, etc. I think both have their place, and are in no way falling by the wayside.

BB

I won't try to talk you into them, but if you haven't, you should proxy them a couple of times.
If you've run them, then I'll shut up!

My experience is they get overlooked until they've done their damage. Them needing have line of sight is a draw back, but they also tend to shut down, or funnel lanes of fire. And when i say overlooked, I try to present other, more dangerous threats for my opponent to worry about. YMMV.

alarmingrick wrote:

beerbeard wrote:I don't have my SM codex handy, how many points is a rifleman dread? As Allaros said, it's a silly comparison, and completely off topic.

Anyhoo, I may be swimming against the IG stream, but I do not like Hydras. For one thing, they require LOS, which means the bad guys get LOS on them. I never see them last, as they are an obvious target priority. Glass cannons always are. Second, and more importantly, they take up a Heavy Support choice, and I need those for my real tanks. In terms of survivability, offensive power, the chance to do something really amazing, and putting the Fear into your opponent, one LRBT > 2 Hydras.

Virtually all of my lists have 7 AC's and 4 LC's, at a minimum. 4 HWT bases in infantry squads, 3 AC scout sentinels, a Vendetta, and an LC in a CCS. Depending on points, opponent, etc. I usually sprinkle a few more in, via a 2nd Vendetta, more blobs, static vets, etc. I think both have their place, and are in no way falling by the wayside.

BB

I won't try to talk you into them, but if you haven't, you should proxy them a couple of times.
If you've run them, then I'll shut up!

My experience is they get overlooked until they've done their damage. Them needing have line of sight is a draw back, but they also tend to shut down, or funnel lanes of fire. And when i say overlooked, I try to present other, more dangerous threats for my opponent to worry about. YMMV.

I had thought that they weren't that great at first too (before I tried them out, go figure) but for only 75 points I almost wouldn't even call them a glass cannon. Which in my mind implies fragility, firepower, and expensiveness. But you may think differently.

Anyways, Hydras are fantastic against Dark Eldar. You're opponent should be complaining about them not costing enough by the end of a game against them.

Hydras are not a glass cannon because of their cost.

Point for point an AV12 front armor on a hydra will take hits better than AV12 front armor on a psyfleman dread that's almost double the hydra's cost.

They have a 12 front armor and are in the same price range as a land speeder typoon or decked out razorback. In mech IG armies they really tend to be a low target priority. Most opponents will choose to shoot the AV12 front of a vendetta or manticore instead of the AV12 front of a hydra.

My point was that a dread is an excellent choice of platform for autocannons. Net's many hits, can move and fire, and is on a durable platform.

Hydra's are a good buy too, for the same reasons above. Sure its got weaker side armor, but you can field much more armor for both saturation and LOS blocking and it costs less than the rifleman. Everything has its ups and downs.
So what is the value of using AC's in a blob/HWT/vets and command squads, taking into consideration the other choices in the army and also the other weapon options available to the units in question?

Ailaros has a view!

Ailaros wrote:

Ignatius wrote:I do also use a lot of autocannon heavy weapon teams, so the more autocannons the better.

Actually, it's the reverse of that. The more autocannons, the more you pidgeonhole your firepower into a single role. If anything, taking autocannon HWSs mean you more need heavy hitters than less.

KplKeegan wrote:Oh. I must've derped up then. My bad.

Maybe try listening to others instead of unnecessary hostility and it might not happen

Jihallah wrote:I was talking this the other day with a mate.

For say SM, I can get a rifleman dreadnought. It's going to lay down and almost a guaranteed 3 hits, and will often net you 4, with its twin linked BS4.
For guard, you need FOUR heavy weapons bases to match that accuracy. A Hydra comes close by getting an average of 3 hits. But outside the Hydra and the silly russ variant, AC's in guard don't work terribly well. AC's require a weight of fire, and whilst you can spam AC's harder than anyone else, you need to spam 4 bases to get as effective as my 1 walker. That walker isn't static, unlike the HWT's, therefore its easier to redeploy, you can move to deny cover, you can move into cover and shoot, and it is harder to receive cover against it than the 4 bases. So it's not so much that you need to spam shots for autocannons to work, you need to spam hits for the autocannons low S to get the job done.

Orders are the guard equalizer.

A dice roll to make it work, at LD7 for HWT's, and a limited number of times you can do it is not an equalizer. Everything has its ups and downs- your orders to make AC's comparable can be used to make LC's , plasma and meltaguns better.

i actually had this topic come up in my head when revamping my gunboat list AC vs. LC

taking averages (meaning twin linked BS3 should net you approx one hit)

and these are for my vets but the math i believe still applies to regular guard /HW teams

vs. AV 10
AC 66% to glance - 50% to pen x 2 shots at 66% = 87% chance to glance - 66% chance to pen
LC 100% to glance - 83% to pen x 1 shot at 66% = 66% chance to glance - 55% chance to pen

vs. AV 11
AC 50% to glance - 33% to pen x 2 shots at 66% = 66% chance to glance - 44% chance to pen
LC 83% to glance - 66% to pen x 1 shot at 66% = 55% chance to glance - 33% chance to pen

vs. AV 12
AC 33% to glance - 17% to pen x 2 shots at 66% = 44% chance to glance - 22% chance to pen
LC 66% to glance - 50% to pen x 1 shot at 66% = 44% chance to glance - 33% chance to pen

so taking the averages of transports (which my dudes should be firing at from range)
AC comes out a little ahead because of the "volume" of shots but LC hits harder the higher you go (duh)

i actually take a LC team with one of my CCS and AC with my vets cause i like variety but thats just me.

I remember this thread from last month, but it's deffinitely still relevant. I think there is no clear winner between the two, and like most things, you need a balance between the two.

I did a tournament today with mostly lascannons, and found myself wishng I had autocannons several times. The problem is that against certain targets (rhinos) I'd rather have volume of fire to get through the cover saves. Even with "fire on my target", I had a lot of shots eaten up by smoke saves. My single autocannon did quite well against them however, and from now on i'll be bringing a mix of both.

However, lascannons did prove their worth several times, oddly enough, on leman russes. Spaz all you want about how "russes are anti infantry only", but with a lascannon. russes do a great job against most armor, as well as picking up the occassional wound the battlecannon will drop. My russes were dramatically more effective with them, and were able to threaten everything from hordes, to armor, to meq and termies. I know from now on i'll probably always bring them on vanilla russes. They picked up several easy kills that i would've never gotten without the lascannons. Whereas in previous games, my oppnent's vehicles would ignore my ruses, now they had to really watch their movement or risk me taking a potshot and knocking them out. Even better, sometimes the shot will drift and do even more damage. Obviously, you can't rely on it, but it forced my opponent to play different and that itself is worth alot. YMMV though

to Mr. Moustaffa: ACs are quite good, but not excellent against Rhinos. I have had a game where my 4 ACs in a blob were not able to kill even a single rhino for the whole game. Hell, almost in my every game ACs did not do anything...And against AV 12+ they are almoust unusable. LCs are more universal. They do just fine against AV 11 and better then AC against almost everything else (apart from foot infantry with 4+ armour, but I hardly see this type of soldiers in the open).

I do not think ACs are good in the whole. LCs seem to be a better choice because they can penetrate heavy infantry (marines, termies), instakill stuff and dammage monstrous creatures (wraithlords are almost immune to ACs).

The only advantage of AC imho are opponents with AV 10 spam (DE) and the cost of the upgrade. And even though LC upgrade costs twice as much as ACs in the IG army, you can not count you will really have two autocannons for a single lascannon, because you have limited number of carriers in your army. For example you have a 20-men blob with 2 LCs. Can you change this to 4 ACs? No. You would need another 20-men blob squad for them. For an AC HWteam you pay 75 points, for LC HWT you pay 105. You get 1,4 AC for every LC here. The difference is not really big.

Another advantage of LC is fire concentration. For me it is really problem to field 4 squads of AC HWT in one place. LOS can be a real pain.

EDIT: I am only talking about foot ACs. The gun can be usefull when you take a hydra, but that is because of the great carrier, not the weapon itself...

I have to side with the "both have their place" contingent. I run ACs in my blobs, as they are better at adding weight of fire when targeting approaching infantry, and at range they are excellent for harassing and occasionally killing light armor. I also run a lascannon HWT, who tend to set up in a sniper vantage and get Bring It Down orders for the first few turns. Then I have an outflanking AC/HKM Sentinel squad, who can hit rear armor pretty reliably.

Compairing the AC with the Lascannon is like compairing my house key with my shoe.
They both do their jobs really well, but suck at doing each others job. My mech lists
run Hydras for my ACs. My Vendettas carry my Lascannons. The 2 weapons have different
jobs. I think dumping all you HW choices into lascannon HWT, with no ACs is limiting your
choices, and spending the most points you could at every weapon choice you have means
less to spend.

edit:
forgot /

I disagree with the comparison made above, it is more like comparing your bike lock keys to your car keys. Both give you access to transportation, but one is more expensive to use than the other.

That being said, I get that they techncally have different jobs, but the lascannon is just more worth it to me. I have ran all AC, a mix, and all LC. And when I run all LC, I find my opponents vehicles have a hard time getting close. Especially with orders like bring it down or fire on my target.

Yes, the AC is great when on a platform, such as the hydra. In this form, it is a great choice. But for blobs I prefer LC's. They just get ore work done. And as was mentioned, the LC's make a more compact army. They do ore work for less. Bringing 6 just n blobs is better than having to bring 10 or more to do the same amount of work.

Yes, the argument can be ade for the AC for anti infantry...but then what is the rest of your army for? Guard have anti infantry like no other and a little bit more is not much help, unless you are making some interesting choices in the rest of your list.

This is from personal experience, but aside from cost and with GK Psybolt ammo, I've never seen what the big deals is with AC, even with the rifleman dreadnought (Again, excluding the GK Psyfleman Dread, which is all levels of awesome). Yes, they're cheap, yes, they're 2 shots and with dreads are twin linked, but strength 7 and no rending makes them a jack of all trades while being a master of none. For my BA and Vanilla regular dreads, I've had far better results equipping them with the Lascannon/Missile launcher, even more so if I make them Venerable.

Again this is just from my personal experience, I'm others have had far better results with AC than I have...


EDIT: Sorry, just realized this thread was for discussing AC for IG only. My bad!

Autocannons are actually pretty rubbish. They will only penetrate a rhino on a 5 or 6. Lascannons will do so on a 3+. They're well worth the extra 5 points you usually pay (as well as the ludicrously under-priced Vendetta), as well as AP2 and IDing MEQ.

That really is not true. One autocannon has the exact same chance of getting a penetrating result on a rhino as one lascannon, at both BS3 and BS4, due to having twice the shots. The autocannon is also more likely than the lascannon to get a glancing hit.

Autocannon BS3:
2 shots, 1 hits, .166 glances, .33 pens
Lascannon BS3
1 shot, .5 hits, .083 glances, .33 pens

You get similar results at BS4. So against most vehicles, an autocannon is actually MORE likely to do something than the lascannon, and is also more effective against certain types of infantry. Lascannons are more effective against certain targets like Paladins and MCs of course, however looking at MCs in particular you can see that the difference is not huge.

BS3 shooting at a standard T6 3+ sv MC:

Autocannon:
2 shots, 1 hit, .66 wounds, .22 unsaved

Lascannon:
1 shot, .5 hit, .42 wounds, .42 unsaved

And at BS4:

Autocannon:
2 shots, 1.33 hit, .88 wounds, .295 unsaved

Lascannon:
1 shot, .66 hit, .55 wounds, .55 unsaved

It really is not as cut and try as you seem to think. The lascannon is better against some things, and the autocannon is better against others. For the extra points you pay, you LOSE some effectiveness against light vehicles, gain the ability to hurt AV14, and gain some effectiveness against MCs and Paladins. However, you probably also have a ton of meltaguns in your army, which are going to be filling that same role, because armies with lots of MCs dont have heavy tanks for melta to focus on.

I suggest you look at the carrier rather than the weapon. So for example for an infantery squad you need to compare lascannon plus plasma gun plus ten wounds against autocannon plus grenade launcher plus ten wounds. lascannon provide quality Ap2 high stregth shots, autocannon comes with multiple medium strength Ap4 shots. While you could take plasma guns with autocannon I wouldnt bother, you might as well go the whole hog and get a lascannon.

For me cost is a factor. AC are half the cost, and the 10 points per squad can add up. I usually play 1750 and below with a manticore, hydra, 3 vendettas, 10 melta guns, and 3 infantry based autocannons (usually 2 in infantry squads and 1 in a mechvet squad).

Now for 30 points I could upgrade the 3 AC into LC, or for the same 30 points I could buy an astropath, oof, or upgrade a vet squad to demo doctrine. There is a lot I can do with those 30 points, and I don't think my list needs more LC. The vendettas average 6.75 hits per turn, the same as 13.5 infantry based LC. The mantivoce and melta guns can to handle av14 targets. What the AC do is give me the chance more chances to shoot AV11 transports at range without wasting shots from a manticore or vendetta. There just never seems to be a shortage of AV11 target it the current meta, and shooting 20 point LC at them when 10 point AC does the job better at a lower cost is not operating at peak efficiency.