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Flamers are almost exactly the same as Leadbelchers and I never hear the same ZOMG grief said about them.

Leads are: +1WS +1W +1A -1S +6" on range which is very close to the same gun AP but not flaming and magic. MI vs. plain infantry. Special vs. Rare. LA vs. daemonic save. +8pt cost for Leads.

I just don't see them as that different. It's just that Ogre Specials are so damn good people can choose to ignore them.

You also forgot Flamers are Skirmish troops, as well as +1BS. The skirmish means they have a full range of motion unavailable to ogre leadbelchers, not to mention the BS helps them far better at shooting.

The 1bs matters a lot and I did forget to mention that. The other stuff is really a wash.

Also, flamers are cheaper.


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Oh, and IIRC, Flamers can stand and shoot, but LB can't.

Cheaper by 8 points, skirmishing, extra BS, being able to stand and shoot... not to mention the additions you already pointed out, magical and flaming. This is clearly in the hands of the flamers.

Leadbelchers are good in this book update, and Many people are taking them. But flamers are above and beyond in performance-to-cost ratio.

I'm not trying to whine here, just pointing out that they're extremely good, and if you want to avoid the things that are considered overpowered in the daemons book, forgoing flamers and special characters would (in my book) do so fantastically!

The rest I can deal with, but the nasty combos with some of the special characters (Masque leadership bombing, Kairos as mentioned) and the really low cost and excellent performance of flamers, are the ones that put sand in my eye (whether rightfully or no) and I believe that's a common feeling, as well.

By contrast, I loved playing against my friend's all khornate daemons, and he went something like 8-1 in our league... the "1" being to me so maybe I can't talk here, as my army is a good counter to it, and flaming absolutely ruins my day! First with my all-tree army, now with my trolls...

They're the same, seriously. +1 BS vs. +25% range. AP vs. flaming/magic. Skirmishing vs. vastly better at melee combat (Stomp, Ogre charge, +1WS, +1A, monstrous ranks). 3-6 Rare Flamers max vs. 3+ Special Leadbelchers. The extra wound is the main cost, like most things in WHFB.

If they redo Flamers in 8th, I don't see them changing that much. Maybe the cost will go up a tiny bit.

I think it's a common feeling, I just don't think the math bears it out in relation to one of the newest books.

They're clearly not the "same"! I think we've debated the differences enough and I won't belabor the point- but that is clearly not true.

They have different strengths over one another- they are by no means equivalent!

I think you're upset because you had 2 armies that were explicitly weak to them because of their flaming. But you should know that most armies aren't going to have that gigantic weakness. If Flamers had cost double their point values they still would have dominated your armies because you were fielding mass high value Flammables.

You missed my point- simply that they're not "the same". Leadbelchers fill a very different role from Flamers. Of course, I dislike Flamers more as they are the perfect counter to my armies- but I think their performance in major events also bears this out, as I mentioned I just witnessed in-person the same local player win Adepticon's Fantasy Big Brawl, with perfect battle points, using Kairos and Flamers (and probably a large Bloodletter block, perhaps with masque and skulltaker, I'll have to go back and see if the list is posted anywhere).

I apologize for a long PM I sent you stating this same thing but I think it's clear we're not going to see eye to eye. I agree to disagree!

But my main point was simply that saying one has more range, one has an additional BS... one skirmishers, one is better in close combat... just doesn't really make sense as an argument to me. They're different, those things don't equate. I think the attribute of flamers make them excel at their role, whereas Leadbelchers, while very good, really shouldn't be seeing combat- if they are, something has gone wrong or may be about to.

Skirmishing, extra BS, all the shots flamers can put out, flaming... those things make them extremely good at their role. Leadbelchers, with the extra range, more wounds, armor penetration, are also very good at their role. But it's a different role, so we don't even really have to be arguing this

Which is better, coconut cake or a rotisserie chicken? For me, it depends on what I want to eat, but I certainly wouldn't want them at the same time. In the same way, I think these units are not equivalent enough to be directly compared... but even if they are, attributes such as skirmishing vs. prowess in close combat just make them good at different things.

Ironguts are vanilla ogres. They are as exactly good in CC as ogres. They destroy in close combat. If Flamers enter close combat something has gone wrong.

Saying they're throwaway misses the point they are Rare with a unit size of 3-6. Leadbelchers put out exactly the same # of shots as Flamers.

And if the 2 face off 3x3 each, Leads will win. They'll win at range on avg. (starting out of range) and absolutely smear them in CC where it will be 18 attacks +3 stomps and 3 wounds vs. 9 attacks at 2 wounds with the Leads being steadfast with a rank bonus. If the Leads charge it becomes even more lopsided.

IMHO they took Flamers and tweaked them for Leadbelchers. Their statline, their weapons, are nearly identical. No they aren't EQUAL as in 1=1, obviously. Nothing in WHFB is. But they're equal in that bloodcrushers = mournfang = demigryphs. Yeah, they all do something slightly different, but it's obvious they were balancing to each other.

Oh pleeeease flamers are costed about as well as a sallamander.

Your excellent post filled with insightful mathematical evaluations and play-by-play analyses and anecdotes, was extraordinarily helpful.

You're welcome.