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Hmm odd, none of those rules mention the movement phase, sorta like any kind of move could work.

I am aware of that and have already quoted it.

I told you to tell me which phase you are going to move into them and what rules you are going to use. Because there are none that exist in WHFB that allows it. So you might as well write:

"Mangler Squigs cannot be charged, but models can move on top of them and put fancy pink dresses on them and take them dancing."

That's fine. Just state the game rules how it's done and where you came up with that.

edit: this was in relation to artee's post

When stuff is able to move..
Movement phase, (Charges, Compulsory, Remaining)
Magic phase, (Spells that move units, flee)
Shooting phase (flee)
Combat phase (Overrun, pursuit, flee)

The rule to use. O&G fanatic/mangler rules. and BRB pg 11,. Army Book > BRB.

Wow, that's a pretty extreme interpretation and can't see that going over. But if we want to go extreme RAW.

They can't flee so all those are moot. All the spells and such will say 1".

P. 16 describes charging. Ary book is

"Fanatics cannot be cahrged, but models can move into contact with them."

"Charging is the only way for units to reach close combat with the foe. If you want to attack an enemy then you must charge him--you simply cannot move into close combat without having declared a charged."

The charging subphase is stil charging. Therefore they are immune to anything under 2. Charge. They cannot be charged.

The only rule that was changed via the army book is the last part of the BRB, that you can move into without charging. So any of the non-charge phases you could walk up to them. But you can't charge as they are clearly immune to that phase. So you could remaining moves them and even march if you pass LD (if they are close enough).

We're not charging them however we're charging goblins.

Except you can't do that. If any units are in the way you have to declare a multi-charge against them.

They can't be charged.

Because you can move into contact with the unit, It doesn't prevent a charge. The unit beyond them is not a impossable charge.

Artee wrote:Because you can move into contact with the unit, It doesn't prevent a charge.

Fanatics cannot be charged, but models can move into contact with them

I don't know.

A "movement" in the Charge subphase sounds like a charge. And the army book does not change any of the other rules of charging. I.e., declaring multi-charges.

Fanatics/Mangers can't stand and shoot and can't flee a charge. What's the point of saying they can't be charged if you're just going to charge them? Why not just say when charging, XYZ happens? You're saying the first sentence is irrelevent, which is a pretty big deal, cuz it's a very big statement. "I can't be charged--except always."

Your not charging them. You are charging though them to the unit on the other side. They have the rule that they can't be charged so they can't block charging or redirect.

Except that concept doesn't exist in the BRB. And is specifically contrary to the rules.

If there is no way at all of completing the charge without touching another (sometimes known as 'clipping') then the charging unit must also declare a charge against the other unit(s).

You're making it seem like they can't be charged is a penalty. I.e., "Men, prepare to charge into those 2 foot little green guys!!! It will be a rough fight, I want everyone to give it their all! They happen to be standing behind 2 insane giant squigs twirling at 300 rpm, but don't worry about them, they aren't a concern."

You can't charge impassible terrain either, but it's still impassible. How are you coming up with the idea that because a UNIT can't be charged you simply can walk through it?

From a game stand-point, if it's not a charge, you don't even have to wheel and close and do any of that charge-y stuff. You just have to touch them with the smallest corner and they *poof*.

Thats fine.. If you don't want to include the Army Book Rules, you are giving fanatics/manglers more power.

...so you're assuming your interpretation is "The Army Book Rules." I got the army book too, you know?

The whole movement section is something like what, 15 pages in the BRB, and you're saying it's all gone based on one sentence?

You are making fanatics/mangers vastly weaker by saying they can be hit in any subphase of Movement without using any movement subrules. Like, Remaining Moves, where it's impossible to touch an enemy unit under any circumstances, you're saying you can just run over fanatics because they "can't be charged?" Really? I don't see that anywhere in the army book and it's sure as hell not in the BRB. They are still a unit, it's not like the ability to not charge them turns them into terrain.

DukeRustfield wrote:...so you're assuming your interpretation is "The Army Book Rules." I got the army book too, you know?

The whole movement section is something like what, 15 pages in the BRB, and you're saying it's all gone based on one sentence?

You are making fanatics/mangers vastly weaker by saying they can be hit in any subphase of Movement without using any movement subrules. Like, Remaining Moves, where it's impossible to touch an enemy unit under any circumstances[b]Except in the army book where it specifies that the Mangler and the Fanatic can be touched. , you're saying you can just run over fanatics because they "can't be charged?" Really? I don't see that anywhere in the army book and it's sure as hell not in the BRB. They are still a unit, it's not like the ability to not charge them turns them into terrain.

My careful research shows that no new information has been given on this page just rephrasing of old points, ya'll have fun keeping this going though.
Me i'll wait for the next FAQ and hope.

DukeRustfield wrote:You can't declare a charge against fanatics or manglers. It states it clearly. If they roll 8+ they bounce through you and come out 1" behind. You didn't charge them, they ran through you.

Oh, I see what you're asking. Hrm, they are either saying you can't charge them PERIOD or you can't Charge them, and thus possibly kill them before they get to do their stuff. But you can walk up to them in any movement phase and say hi.

Eh, I still don't see it. You can't declare impossible charges. So if you had a valid charge to a NG unit and fanatics pop out and roll 2, you have to now declare charges against both of them to complete you NG charge. But you can't charge fanatics.

Okay, after some brief thinking. I'm going to make a total RAI call and say you they meant Charge with no Charge rules. You Charge up, watch them die. And charge on if that's what you were doing. My rationale for this is it says you can move into contact with them and there's no movement phase you can do that other than charging.

While it is true that you cannot declare impossible charges, It is perfectly fine to declare a charge that may or may not be possible due to things that will happen during the moving chargers sub-phase.
(such as another unit charging out of your way!).

Basically, I declare a charge on the NG unit. It is irrelevant if there are fanatics/mangler squigs in the way, (or if there will be fanatics in the way shortly).

You are allowed to come within 1" of enemy units during the charge move, even if they are not the unit you are charging. Now Enemy units you didn't charge are basically impassible terrain for all intensive purposes, but I can still make my charge as long as I don't actually contact them. If I contact an enemy unit that is not the unit I am charging and i haven't contacted the unit I am charging yet, the charge is failed.

But wait. At the moment I contact the mangler squig/fanatic. It has a rule that state I CAN touch them, and they are removed from play when this happens (blah blah, other effects, my unit getting hurt badly, irrelevant for this discussion), since I can touch them, and the moment I do, they are removed from play, they are no longer a hindrance to my charge move, and the move can continue.

Basically, as long as it is possible that the unit in question that would be "blocking" my charge will be removed from play or moved during my move chargers phase, the charge is not impossible.

Declare charge-> defender reactions-> roll charge distance -> move chargers -> determine if unit would hit impassible terrain/other units -> if so, check rules on these units to see if they have special rules about being touched (no not like that, sickos) -> if they do, follow said rules -> complete charge move.

There is no burden of prove for "when" a mangler/fanatic is being touched. Permission is granted to touch them. This makes it allowable under any/all circumstances that might transpire during the game.

HoverBoy wrote:My careful research shows that no new information has been given on this page just rephrasing of old points, ya'll have fun keeping this going though.

And you trolling is a new point?

keithb wrote:
Basically, I declare a charge on the NG unit. It is irrelevant if there are fanatics/mangler squigs in the way, (or if there will be fanatics in the way shortly).

No it's not. Because the BRB specifically states if another unit is in the way, you have to declare a charge on it. Nowhere in the army book does it change that. The army book actually states you can't charge them.

It's just a catch-22.

Are they units? Yes. They can be shot (and there's rules on it). They can be the target of spells. They have stats. Etc.

The only rule in the entirety of WHFB that allows you to contact an enemy unit is Charging. They can't be charged. But they can be moved into. But to move into a unit, you have to charge it. They can't be charged. Etc.

We know what happens IF you move into them. You take dmg they die. There is no mechanism for allowing you to move into them. The only one that exists, Charging, the army book specifically says you can't do.

Basically, a whole lot of pages on the Movement phase and its various subphases get potentially modified by two words: "moved into." Can a Skaven Skitterleap onto a Fanatic? The Skaven book says 1" but the O&G book says they can be moved into. Or even the Hand of Gork, you could throw some cheapo unit at them, OR if one of the enemies steals the HoG spell.

For fanatics, they consider charging to be movement; as it is spelled out in the Fanatic rule.

If a unit moves within 8", it is halted and fanatics are released.
If charging isn't movement, then charging within 8" wouldn't release fanatics.
Next the rule says that after fanatics are released the unit may continue to move, though chargers MUST continue.
Which is again, shows that for Fanatics, GW says charge is a type of movement.

As for the only rule saying that you can move into contact with an enemy is charging, you are incorrect.
Both "Splat!" and "Force of destruction" specifically outline moving one unit into contact with another.

-Matt

You're making an extrapolation that charging = movement and thus is legal when they very clearly states it can't be charged, no extrapolation needed. You try and CSI piece together a few sentences and scenarios, I'll just point out that it says quite succinctly, "Fanatics/Manglers cannot be charged."

It doesn't say Fanatics cannot be charged--except when a unit is moving. That's silly. And moreover, completely pointless.

Fanatics are the only case where I can see you inadvertently moving into them without breaking the BRB. And it's the example you listed. Because the charge has already been declared and movement has started, so you are past declarations, if contact happens it's incidental on the way to completing a charge. The BRB lists no alternative actions you could take. But Manglers don't have that rule. And if the Fanatics are already out, that situation won't exist. I.e., to touch them you would have to declare a charge. And they cannot be charged.

I mean, if the Fanatics are out, you're looking at them with your sabertusk, it's the start of the charge subphase, do you simply say you're moving against them? It's in the Charge subphase. That concept doesn't exist. Are you saying you charge them? They cannot be charged.

Tell me what you do in what phase against already released Fanatics, nowhere near their NG unit or Manglers hanging around. What phase and what actions bring you into contact with them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aight. I took a nap and was dreaming about mangler squigs...

So I'm going to say their RAI is you charge them. The fact they say you can't charge them is because you don't do a charge reaction and don't have to close the gate on them. That being the completion of the sentence, "they cannot be charged, but models can move into contact with them." So it's at least a complete thought and make SOME sense as it's not a normal charge, though it's in the charge subphase.

I can't see you touching them in any other subphase as there is no provision for it in the BRB and no rules for it in the army book. The charge subphase is the only one in which units can come together.

DukeRustfield wrote:
No it's not. Because the BRB specifically states if another unit is in the way, you have to declare a charge on it. Nowhere in the army book does it change that. The army book actually states you can't charge them.

Seeing as how they are removed from play during my movement phase, They are not "in the way" so I don't have to declare a charge on them.

DukeRustfield wrote:
Are they units? Yes. They can be shot (and there's rules on it). They can be the target of spells. They have stats. Etc.

We agree! They are units!

DukeRustfield wrote:
The only rule in the entirety of WHFB that allows you to contact an enemy unit is Charging. They can't be charged. But they can be moved into. But to move into a unit, you have to charge it. They can't be charged. Etc.

This is false. you are not reading the force of total destruction rule correctly.
They can be moved into. End of sentence, permission is granted to move into them any time you are in range to do so. The rule doesn't say "They can be moved onto as a result of a charge and are then removed".

It simply stated, they can be moved into. When you ask? Any time you are moving something. They put no restriction as to when/how they can be moved into, and this rule superscedes the BRB rule book about 1" and contact.

They cannot be charged, but they can be moved into.

I'm taking that to mean one rule is changed: charging. Why? Because charging is the only rule that allows you to touch an enemy unit. And in the English language that sentence and the ones that follow it now make more sense. They would not need a comma to separate those thoughts if, as you say, every phase of movement now allowed you to move into them. The fact there's a comma there means charging is still part of the sentence and not a separate thought like:

They cannot be charged. They can be moved into.

^ That I would take to be they can be moved into on any phase. But it's in the same sentence.

John like ice cream, but he does not like chocolate flavor.

^ You're probably talking about chocalate flavor ice cream because they are the same sentence. While it's theoretically possible the above sentence means John like any flavor ice cream but dislikes chocolate flavor tacos, it doesn't make nearly as much sense.

DukeRustfield wrote:

They cannot be charged, but they can be moved into.

I'm taking that to mean one rule is changed: charging. Why? Because charging is the only rule that allows you to touch an enemy unit. And in the English language that sentence and the ones that follow it now make more sense. They would not need a comma to separate those thoughts if, as you say, every phase of movement now allowed you to move into them. The fact there's a comma there means charging is still part of the sentence and not a separate thought like:

So this is what it says.

They cannot be charged, but they can be moved into.

And you read it as this.

They cannot be charged, but they can be moved into during the charge phase instead.

It doesn't matter that it is a comma or whether or not it is one sentence or two. They used one sentence to explain intereactions with mangler squigs/ fantatics.

A) They cannot be charged. [Permission to charge these models has been revoked, this over-rides a basic rule in the BRB, you do not seem to have a problem with Armybook > BRB here]

and

B) They can be moved into. [Permission to move into this unit has been granted. This provides an exception to the BRB rule. There were no conditions/restrictions placed on this exception as to which units or when or how. Just that is can happen.]

Lastly, even if it were written as you seem to think it is, it still wouldn't stop the charge.

No, I read it as:

Mangler squigs cannot be charged, but models can move into contact with them during the charge subphase, which is why we put this in one sentence/thought.

And you took it to read:

Mangler squigs cannot be charged, and while we are talking about charging, we're also going to cancel 20 pages of rules in the BRB and other army books and spells and items that have nothing to do with charging, and provide you nothing in terms of mechanisms except to say moved into contact.

Yes, it does matter if it's a sentence or two. As any English professor will confirm.

Permission may have been granted to move into it, but there are no rules to do so whatsoever. And since we're making up rules, let's make them at least interesting. Clearly the moving unit has to wheel about and face the direction the fanatic/mangler is facing since it says move INTO. I.e., inside.

I have read it as a blanket allowance to move into contact with them and a blanket restriction on charging them.

The sub-phase is irrelevant, and thus unmentioned.

DukeRustfield wrote:No, I read it as:

Mangler squigs cannot be charged, but models can move into contact with them during the charge subphase, which is why we put this in one sentence/thought.

And you took it to read:

Mangler squigs cannot be charged, and while we are talking about charging, we're also going to cancel 20 pages of rules in the BRB and other army books and spells and items that have nothing to do with charging, and provide you nothing in terms of mechanisms except to say moved into contact.

Yes, it does matter if it's a sentence or two. As any English professor will confirm.

Permission may have been granted to move into it, but there are no rules to do so whatsoever. And since we're making up rules, let's make them at least interesting. Clearly the moving unit has to wheel about and face the direction the fanatic/mangler is facing since it says move INTO. I.e., inside.

No, I read the words that are present, no more, no less.

Rules as written.

You can't do A, but you can do B.

What I take from that is, I can't do A... But I can do B.

you read it as, I cannot do A, But I can only do B sometimes when A might have been important, but this also means I can't A to other things not mentioned in the rules here so I think that means that you can't even do B even though the rules say you can.

Put it this way. In the English language, the sentence is a coordinating conjunction of complete sentences.

-Mangler Squigs cannot be charged
-Models can move into contact with them

The coordinating conjunction, but, actually makes the 2nd sentence modify charged. That is what the conjuctive phrase modifies, not Mangler Squigs. This isn't a perfect diagram, but I'm not going to photoshop. But the whole point is it's modifying charge. Saying it modifies charge + all other movement possible is unrealistic given they are never mentioned and the sentence specifically targets be charged with the modifying rule.


If it simply said Mangler Squigs could be moved into contact with, I'd be more inclined to agree it applied to all movement. But the sentence is saying, what addendum is being made to the verb phrase "cannot be charged?"

DukeRustfield wrote:Put it this way. In the English language, the sentence is a coordinating conjunction of complete sentences.

-Mangler Squigs cannot be charged
-Models can move into contact with them

The coordinating conjunction, but, actually makes the 2nd sentence modify charged. That is what the conjuctive phrase modifies, not Mangler Squigs. This isn't a perfect diagram, but I'm not going to photoshop. But the whole point is it's modifying charge. Saying it modifies charge + all other movement possible is unrealistic given they are never mentioned and the sentence specifically targets be charged with the modifying rule.


If it simply said Mangler Squigs could be moved into contact with, I'd be more inclined to agree it applied to all movement. But the sentence is saying, what addendum is being made to the verb phrase "cannot be charged?"

It does say this.

The but doesn't automatically refer to the subject of charging, it simply continues discussion on how to interact with mangler squigs. You are presuming to know what the writer intended when you add this extra meaning to them.

The sentence is describing Your(the player) options of interacting with the mangler squig. It isn't describing ONLY charge rules. You presume the subject of the sentence is charging. It is not.

My only point of contention is where you claim that charge through Mangler Squigs. I tend to see them as enlarged Fanatics, which have rather clear rules stating that if you declared a charge and Fanatics are released, you must continue with it. Seeing as you're required to go through, I'd say it's a good sign that you can charge through a Fanatic, and being essentially bigger Fanatics I'd say you can charge through Mangler Squigs as well. You're going to get mangled doing so, but if you want to take 3D6 hits in the bargain of charging whatever's behind that's fine by me.

keithb wrote:The but doesn't automatically refer to the subject of charging, it simply continues discussion on how to interact with mangler squigs. You are presuming to know what the writer intended when you add this extra meaning to them.

You presume the subject of the sentence is charging. It is not.

It is the subject. This isn't me making it up. This is English sentence diagraming. It's a certainty that is object that the 2nd clause is modifying and it is a complete thought.

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/diagrams2/one_pager1.htm
http://www.utexas.edu/courses/langling/e360k/handouts/diagrams/diagram_basics/basics.html

There's hundreds of web pages on it. There is only one (correct) way to diagram every sentence, though as tricky as English is, it can take a while to figure out. This assumes the Reed-Kellogg, which has been around since the 1800s.

The only thing I'm assuming is they have a writer and editor who know English. Which may be asking a lot. Or maybe they never intended it to be held up to this kind of scrutiny. But sentence diagramming is as RAW as you can possibly get. When you say presuming to know what the writer inteded, that's RAI. Admittedly we all make mistakes. I just looked at some of my threads I posted a bit ago and they are full of typos. But I'm not posting professionally with thousands of people scrutinizing my words. And I'm lazy and often tired/drunk/stupid when posting.

One more time for the Troll.

Charging is not the subject it is the action of the 1st part. The 2nd part the models is the subject.

This definitely sounds like someone lost did not like losing a unit when charging them. No FAQ is needed. The sentence is clear.




Mangler Squigs (Subject), can be charged (verb)
Not (adverb modifer)

but (conjuction), (parallerl joint)

models (subject), can move (verb)
into (preposition), with (preposition)
contact (adverb modifier) them (adberb modifer.

Um.

You realize you just said the same thing I did? The line comes from charging, which it is modifying. Not Mangler Squigs. But I'm kind of happy I didn't do so bad diagramming after having not done it in ~20 years. I'm also tickled I now have an instant online diagrammer! I didn't use the official predicate nomniative, direct object, prepositional phrase terminology (which is the only thing you are disputing) because it's irrelevant.

And I've said this before, but there isn't anyone who is more objective than me here. I don't actually play. I buy the books. I have some models. I read some novels. But other than the occassional game where people supply me with armies, I don't play. 99% of what I do is debate game theory. If Fanatics have 10 str KB with 50 attacks each, it doesn't change my life one iota because I'll never play them.

Below is what the outline/sentence would look like if it were modifying Mangler Squigs and not charged. It had a problem with the concept of Remaining Moves, so I had to just put another phase.

Mangler Squigs cannot charge but can move in another phase.



If the concept is to modify Mangler Squigs, they didn't. They modified how you can charge of Mangler Squigs.


Also, I don't think you understand exactly what is being debated. I'm saying Mangler Squigs CAN BE CHARGED. In the Charge subphase. But instead of closing the door and having charge reactions, they are merely touched, and the charging unit (if unpanicked/not dead) may or may not continue. In the case of surprise Fanatics, they must continue. This is to contrast with some people who believe Manglers/Fantics can be charged, can be touched in Remaining Moves can also be touched in Compulsory Moves--and I don't know, also touched via spells that move units? I do not believe that is the case because the sentence modifies how you charge fanatics/manglers not the entire concept of fanatics/manglers as units--which would indeed have to change for them to be touched in other phases. Hope I've made that clearer. But I doubt it :(

(typos)