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I need to read more. haha.

So, before I start updating this again, anymore ideas?

I believe the DA page is busted.

I'm also curious what your precedence was to make the wave serpent as cheap as it is and your idea behind making the fire dragons cheaper.

Everything I've read about dire avengers tells me that they are the most popular aspect because they are the most flexible and versatile taking a balanced and effective approach to war. I haven't really found a version of them that has ever reflected that. They always turn out like: Cheapest scoring unit // short ranged suicides anti light infantry torrenting // expensive tarpit. Combining any of these tends to make them too expensive to be worth any of it.

I really think they need to have some sort of upgrade or increase to their portfolio that allows them to be the balanced path, or to give you discretion on the way they will be able to approach the battlefield. I just think so far, most of their roles smack of the same "I can be kinda aggressive vs dudes" that eldar are already loaded with.

Maybe some more grenades? Better kiting ability? More Asura themed exarch loadouts that make the squad capable against more targets or a additional close combat weapon and pistol might make them fit their bill a little better.

One way I've considered improving them was making blade-storm cost slightly more, whilst also allowing them to ignore cover saves that turn. I can see how shuricat volleys, and incredible training might allow a person to inflict casualties through cover.

I've also thought that a wave serpent is not ludicrously over priced for what it is at 90, it just felt like the weapons were.
Looking at your current set up, I think it would still be a very good pick up at 90 with the cannon standard.
I'm not sure about the price of the cannon upgrade, 5 seems low, but it doesn't seem unreasonable, just unwarranted.
I feel the same way about the price of the Starcannon. It really does feel quite expensive for what it does currently, but that's quite the price drop for what is a pretty solid gun.
I've never felt like a bright lance is all that much better than a missile launcher on an all around craft. Unless it gets like ap1 or something, how much of the time is it's ability to blow up av13/14 slightly better or it's ability to force a cover/invulnerable save on a terminator going to be better than not being a waste against lighter targets.


I'd be tempted to make it:

90 for the craft and TL - Cannon

+10 points to swap the shuriken catapults for a shuriken cannon
+15 points to swap the TL-Cannon for a TL - Starcannon
+15 points to swap the TL-Cannon for a TL - Scatter Laser
+15 points to swap the TL-Cannon for a TL - Eldar Missile Launcher
+15 points to swap the TL-Cannon for a TL - Bright Lance

Still might be too rich for some peoples blood. My real question is: Is the upgrade from TL- Shuriken Cannon to say, an eldar missile launcher or scatter laser, really worth 15 points at bs3? I'm starting to think not, but prices are usually put in to curb gameplay and reliance on units, so maybe this is supposed to be forcing you in other directions. Maybe a drop to 10 points might be within reason

I also really like your bone singer crew and soulstones reworks, but I'd rather them be a little less good. Maybe you can make soulstones 5-10 points based on speed as usual, but have any vehicle with soulstones be upgradable with the bone singer crew, which gives them a roll of +4 (or +5?) per weapon to see if it can shoot?

I have 2 other ideas on how this could work.
-It gives a +5 save you roll after a hit has scored a shaken or stunned result, to be able to shoot a weapon. This way the more interactions are piling up, and not just being dealt with by a single cheesy roll.
- They give you some ability to sacrifice movement to devote attention to firing while suffering a shaken result.

I just think the 2 upgrades are too good, but also very costly, making for something of a wonky choice. I do really like the feeling of eldar, being ancient and cerebral entities being able to work past conditions that give puny humans trouble, but I don't want it to be so reliant on high point levels and super investment heavy ubertanks.

Again, I'm really enjoying some of the ideas in your dex, they really speak from experience and have some elegant little innovations. Some people say band-aid like it's a bad thing, but we all would really, really like one and they can be hard to make feel right. I don't like some of the cost manipulation through bundling that happens a lot in this dex, but I think it's doing a pretty darn good job.

EDIT: I still don't really understand why Striking Scorpions have not been moved to a standard troop slot by now. I don't know what is particularly Elite about them. They just torrent down guys with a billion attacks and save more often than normal eldar, they don't have any particular efficiencies beyond that. Now that they don't come with infiltration abilities it is even more apparent. Just seems like a unit that shouldn't have to be unlocked to not take up one of your valuable slots and it's abilities are just make so much more sense on a scoring unit. I feel like it's only an elite slot because it is traditional. It's so easy to compare them to something like wolfguard or vanilla csm or other troop walking assault marines unfavorably.

Well, the logic behind it was two-fold. One, with the meta as it is, there isn't much reason to upgrade to a Starcannon atop a Wave Serpent. It becomes very situational so the cost shouldn't be that high. Also, between 4th and 5th edition most major Vehicles/Transport got roughly 15 points cheaper. Rhinos 50-35, Chimeras 85-55, compare old Predators to new ones and you see a significant point drop. This is only true for Imperial Vehicles as MOST Xenos that had vehicles haven't gotten an update in 5th.

So making it 10 points cheaper AND including a 5 point weapon seemed natural. Falls into the 15-20 cheaper category.

Fire dragons are very useful but so suicidal, like most aspects that it's - in my mind - hard to justify their point costs. Although, making exarch and powers cheaper is probably enough to off set the costs enough and I may have gone overboard.

I was thinking about Dire Avengers actually. I was wondering if a Power fist would be too out of character, or Melta weapon upgrades ala most other races. Even some dark eldar upgrades like Blasters or dark lances maybe? Is that over the top? I think it would add versatility to them. That's the reason I gave them grenades and close combat weapons, give them a few options but I'm not sure if I went far enough - or too far.

The ignoring cover saves doesn't really help them against too many people, since most opponents you face are going to be power armoured.

I can see your point on the Bright lance, I'm reluctant to change the rules on them as they're in the DE codex unchanged so I don't think that's a good idea. Probably just drop them to +15 points is good enough when I think about it. And the missile launcher has more versatility.

I'm a little confused as to how your versions of Soul stones would work. Based on speed? How so?

Yeah, they probably interact too powerfully but I wanted a way to not have an AV12 vehicle continually Stun locked.

Well yeah, but they are a specialized aspect and I'm not sure how I feel about them NOT being elite. I could see a move to the troop section but I don't know how I would justify that without making people yell 'Ultra gay fandex' Plus they can have 'Infiltrate' which seems OP for a troop choice as solid as they are. Yeah scouts have it too but no one cares about them in combat.

I'm not sure really.

Thank you for your interest.

I've been thinking about the Avengers too. It's a hard one, given they are supposed to be super dedicated to what they do, and beyond some sorta contrary fluff, and game information, we have very little to go by what that is. For now, in game terms, we know they score, they cannot hope to be much more than a tarpit in cc and they shoot at men in a way that is sometimes okay, if very well supported. I hadn't caught your inclusion of a pistol and a close combat weapon. That's a nice touch, but it really makes it hard to sell from a fandex standpoint.

I think an idea for improving aspects is deciding 2 things that they ought to be good to alright at. After that, you figure out how this equates in game terms (and try to jimmy it so that it isn't doing the same thing they all are, or is adding some sort of diversity), and whether the army has the tools to make this actually useful for it's points cost.


Another thing that bothers me about aspects is how "not-psychic" they seem to be, and contribute that feel to the army. It's pretty silly how witchy eldar are supposed to be, but incorporate it around to the same extent of imperial armies.

Eldar, to me, are characterized by:
-Intrinsic Psychic Ability, and familiarity with it.
-Supernatural deftness, cunning, competence, forethought, awareness
-Fickleness
-Deserved Arrogance
-Advanced but sorta baroque technology
An inability to withstand great losses
Slightness, and unwillingness or inability to compromise elegance for brute force

I think that a lot of progress over the years has seen eldar's defining aspects appear watered down next to other armies. Beyond that, I think there are some traits that had never really been realized in a great way. This may require some looking outside of the box, so that it isn't constantly drawing comparisons to other armies.

I think the number of scout/flanking options with serious mid strength/range firepower is an excellent example of an idea that is very well thought out in the codex. I think haywire weapons are another one. Sadly, I fear that, as long as the imperials mark the benchmark and dominate the minds of the balancers and designers, eldar will always just feel muddied.

Anyway, I think that making a fandex feel really satisfying, and still properly fluffy, you've got to start either digging really deep into the fluff, or adding in some new ideas. I'm not sure Eldar's problem is one that can be fixed with recosting or making aspects less clunky. Sadly, that usually makes for a pretty poorly received fandex.

I can imagine a lot more generalship type abilities going far. I figure aspect warriors/ exarchs add something more to a battle than simply their fighting presence and their ability to contest objectives. The same goes for pathfinders. I really liked that the autarch and farseers really influenced what you could do and what you could get away with on the battle field, but I don't like how heavily you have to rely on them as an army wide upgrade. I think the Eldar could use more of this. These guys are great orchestrator, craftsmen of war, and capable of understanding and communicating with each other and the world around them in ways that humans can not fathom.

I guess I'm off on a tangent, but I hope you get where I'm coming from. I'm just a dude on a computer, but it's my opinion, that this sort of addition is the key to making the eldar formula work a lot better. That, and more wacky, arcane wargear. Stuff that doesn't follow normal imperial standards of use and distribution. If you have any thoughts on that I'd love any inspiration.

---------------------------------
And back to your codex!

Ya, I'd be worried at that point about the lances that bright lances would start being spammed as much as dark ones. Blasters on Avengers give me similar worries.

Relying too much on the exarch also bothers me. Dire Avengers squads (or some other aspects for that matter) becoming a necessary unlock for an effective character, as well as being a tax for a wave serpent seems sorta wrong headed. Though, the more I think about it, the less I mind dire avengers being a tarpit/torrent device that can hold an objective. I just wish they did it more effectively. The way I see it, when eldar have better access to efficient weapons and units to handle special jobs, there will be less need for the humble avenger squad to be wishing it had a hidden lance. I just wish they were more effective at the jobs they can perform, and a little more durable as a scoring unit, without needing to be a DAVU or taking up all the farseers time. So to me, decreasing their price isn't a catch all, I'd want to be making them actually good at certain things, so we don't just end up with DAVU's, dire avenger grott squads, or the requirement of seer support for the unit to do it's job.

Despite my previous statements on not piling every good thing into the exarch, I think it's going to be necessary to give him a couple more weapon options. Either that, or maybe do something similar to autarchs so they can help contribute, but that is running up the cost. You could give them a wacky grenade maybe, but that would require thinking outside of the box.


I think that the scorpions also need something like this. I think I remember at similar points they struggle vs assault marines, genestealers, boyz and most monsters. And I think I was going with the 15 point version when I was figuring this. Of course that is not necessarily what they are best sunk into fighting, but they also do not score or come with much else, besides the ability to put pressure on uncomfortable parts of the field. They can either be made to do what they do better, or the exarch or wargear can be tweaked a little. I'm excited to try them out personally. I've gotten some friends to let me play with this codex with some power modifications, and I'm pretty stoked about how threatening these guys can be to the backfield and how durable stealth makes them against having their transport popped, but I'd really like them to be a reliable catch-all counter charge option too, and the lots of marine attacks + str6 power really has never cut it for me in the past.

My major worries concerning the transport cost (and to some extent, the cost of dire avengers) stem from abstract comparisons to other codexes. Necron's and BA aren't bad examples of this. DE is a weird one, but also somewhat effective. Comparing a venom to a 2xcannon serpent at these prices feels a little mean. Open topped is a weird thing for comparison, but I'm sure you feel what I mean. Necron Nightscythes seem overpriced to some, and they aren't exactly very versatile, but could you imagine the armies that would exist if they were any cheaper? Damn recent codex too. The scythe can fly faster, that's true, it also comes out to about 5 hits per volley at almost every speed, which is also a decent benefit. The reserve rules are a bit of a mixed blessing, and the deepstriking and stun protection and arcing are obvious perks. Besides all that, the serpent just seems so much better. Way better armor, so much more resistant to common anti light vehicle weapons. Also way more resistant to the heavy hitters, with the shield and not being as vulnerable to weapon destroyed results. Much more versatility in the types of firepower it can bring, and it's firepower is easily comparable when the serpent takes it's cheaper options. It may not be able to bring it's fire everything when moving fast, but it certainly has the option to. It is also remarkably more effective against armor than the AP- Tesla Destructor. A 100 point wave serpent with your army list tends to look really spooky. A similar expenditure in a nightscythe or ghost ark seems really manageable from across the table. The most frightening part is how cheap you can get the squad to purchase the serpent or falcon with. 55 point avengers seem really enabling after playing scythe spam for a bit. They may not be as durable as warriors or immortals, but damn is their bunker tougher and more alarming. 140 points for a serpent with a DAVU and 2 cannons is pretty wicked stuff. It conjures a lot of wacky armies in my head. So does the thought of 170 point dragon serpents with spirit stones. It's odd comparing them to 155 point chimera melta vets or like 230 point vendetta melta vets.

Then again, 2 grey knight Psybacks cost 90 points, and Scouting dominions are sort of comparable to dragon-serpents at 170-180 points. Space wolves and blood angels have a lot of similarly cheap scoring MSU transport options, but I guess it doesn't sit right with me, that the serpent is just so much better of a tank for such similar costs. I guess it's contents are less durable and exciting, but that doesn't feel like it's helping. Serpents have been what is good about eldar all edition, despite being overcosted in several ways, they continue to be something the book leans on effectively, and that makes me feel like they are not the area that needs a drastic overhaul. Maybe a little bit of recosting, but I think bringing it inline with the other recent codexes in this way, is more or less giving into the cheese.

Hahaha, I guess I'm done now. I hope some of that was useful or leads to something, I guess I'm getting a little stream of consciousness here..

That's good insight and thanks for your interest in my fan project. I really appreciate it.

The Dire Avengers are a difficult thing to crack. I think maybe doing something with them and Scorpions that are similar to what I did with the Swooping hawks.

Every 5th person gets a neat weapon option. I think for scorpions, giving them some sort of Poisoned flamer option in a gauntlet. That wouldn't be a bad idea.

Range: Template S: 3 AP:5 Type: Assault 1, Poisoned 3+
5pts? 10pts if they get to keep their S:4 weapon.

Maybe poison their mandi blasters?

As for Dire avengers, I think something similar.

Maybe Exarch's getting to have a powerfist instead of a sword?

Giving every 5th Avenger gets the option for a Blaster or a Flamer?

Having a Built in Optical matrix on the avengers probably isn't a bad idea. Ala Dark reapers.

Yeah, I've gone back on my opinion of Wave Serpents. I think upping their base cost to 90 but letting them keep their current loadout is a better solution. 110pts for a Wave Serpent with Bright lances seems more manageable.

I'm not sure how to address the Psychic issue. I've thought about making Warlocks a court Ala Necrons but I think that may be over played and not an elegant solution.

Another idea I JUST NOW HAD is an Elite unit that is made up of weaker farseers that can be farmed out to other units. It would be an HQ choice but it wouldn't be exactly the same thing as the court. It would be made up of between 1-3 Warseers who have access to lesser, but still Major, psychic powers.

I'm still confused as to how your Soul stones would work though

I'm going to keep this on hold until I see what 6th ed is like...

I'm excited

Okay, so clearly the biggest thing to come out of 6th edition is the need for assault vehicles.

Banshees and striking scorpions are screwed in this new edition. The exarch power I gave them has become essential as I don't think anyone will be taking them otherwise.

Plus Wave serpents are now really weak, sooooo much weaker than before. It's hard to justify their cost now that glancing hits can kill you and its really easy to glance kill an armour 12 vehicle.

If we want wave serpents to be viable we either have to make them cheaper or give them the ability to regrow Hull points. Possibly bone singers or something.

Possibly making the bone singer crew upgrade get that ability and ignore the ones I have them with right now.

What do you guys think?

Okay, 6th ed update is online. Let me know what you think!

Looking through, will update this post.

Cool, thanks

I think overwatch, snap fire, sky fire and overlord power manipulation could really put the oomf back in eldar as the great planners and potent without cheapness (numbers) or brute statistical advantages.

Special snap firing dire avengers and exarch powers and equipment seem like the answer we've been looking for. Especially given the diminishing importance of light av bunkers and how much better str6 has gotten against it. But costing is going to be interesting. What is the drop in effectiveness because of rapid fire worth?

Also how do you make the super cool skimmers oddly survivable again?

How do we compensate for crappy fleet?

What are the most reasonable ways to tack on anti flier? Lord knows the turrets all look like they're pointed that way to begin with.

I'd also like to see some of the unused new rules incorporated, wouldn't that be fun? And maybe the hornet in the main book and the vyper get a little of its own character vs war walkers and hornets. I'm thinking anti air or anti sky fire junk or maybe even chariot options.

EDITS
Oh and congratz on the super fast update, it's really really progressive. God, I have no idea how the real sixth eldar codex will turn out like.

Jeeze those transports are cheap! Love the disruption field idea though.

I like this codex a lot. I really like the new characters you came up with. One small thing bothers me though, Tyranda has a BS of 6, but no ranged weapon. A BS of 6 would add a bit to the cost of the model, but a waste for its only use to be reducing her grenades scatter 1d6".

@Lucre, Thanks

Well I gave them their fighter and anti-aircraft grav tank.

Also, missile launcher would come with them as an option and missiles are a free upgrade on a guardian squad. Plus Dark reapers can take them too.

I'm also playing around with letting Swooping hawks get in on the action and shoot at fliers at normal BS. Makes their Blasters and Lances that much more worth it. Give them Skyfire as standard? I think that would make them worth taking actually, they're still not good enough as it stands I think.

I gave the vehicles the option to take Bone singers, Disruption field and Star engines. Those are all expensive upgrades but damn if that doesn't make them good.

3+ Jink save a Cruising speed along with WS5 and 'It will not die,' they should be a lot more difficult to bring down but - hopefully - expensive enough that people aren't just going to spam them all day long. Still, the overall decrease in Vehicle effectiveness makes it really hard to justify a 90pt transport that you have to buy other upgrades to to make it good. I may have gone overboard with the price decrease but, it's not very survivable and - I don't know. haha.

Well I'm not sure how to make Vypers different enough from Hornets to make you actually want to TAKE vypers. They fill the same slot only the Hornet is way better. I'm not sure it's something we would get in the codex as it's forge world. I know the Firestorm and the fliers are FW too but every else is getting fliers so why not us? Super fast, hard to hit fliers at that.

I actually didn't think of the Overlord thing, its a real good idea. I could make it a 'Path' for an Autarch to take, make you actually want to take him. Maybe something the Prince can do too. Allows you to roll 2D6 and pick either of the results when deciding what power you'd like to take. Not too OP but still pretty good.
I think giving it to Eldrad would be too much as, then he'd have everything and he already has his own Minor power.

I'm not sure how to make the Overwatch thing work. Dire Avengers already have access to 2 powers, one of which may be used in two different ways. I suppose I could drop the 'Ignore cover saves' aspect of the second part of Blade storm and allow you to fire them at full BS in Overwatch if you sacrifice your next turn of shooting. That way it doesn't get overbalanced either.

I hesitate to give it to other - shooty aspects, that power on Fire Dragons or Reapers would be crazy good. Too good. Matt Ward good.

@Celticwelsh Thanks for your reading.

Tyranda has the standard Autarch stat line with extra abilities. Just because she doesn't use guns doesn't mean she's not really good at them - she just gave up their use for the swords.

To balance out the Dire avenger power like you mentioned, you could give them a modified Interceptor rule. They get overwatch at full BS but maybe lose 1 or 2 initiative in the first round of assault. That way, though they get the full BS they fight at the same time as most armies. Not allowing them to shoot in the next phase wouldn't be too much of a downside since most assaults occur from a likely range.

Hmm, that's not a bad idea. I think losing assault initiative is a good idea. That way you'd have to pick what you want to do