Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

DemetriDominov wrote:They need a vessel to possess to enter the realm of reality unless they enter from a stable portal- which takes considerable effort and sacrifice to open and then maintain. It would seem as though Living Saints are something similar to this effect of possession/ ascension, especially St. Celestine who had life breathed back into her and then since has become some sort of divine Warpwalker.

*nods* Good point. Perhaps a Living Saint only comes into being through "possession" because the veil isn't quite thin enough yet for them to cross over like "real" daemons do from time to time. In places where the border between the warp and realspace is thin enough, the masses of humans required to "conjure" a "spirit of holy terror" are unable to exist/gather in sufficient number as too many of them would die before.

Hmm, this theory would swing well with other people's idea of the Emperor actually being a Chaos-God Himself - the Carrion-God, the Lord of Order. With the Living Saints as his own type of daemons. What a heretical thought.

That said, I'm rather sure in nobody at GW actually having given all of this as much thought as we do.

DemetriDominov wrote:So we have to ask the question, are Saints more like Greater Daemons, or are they more like Daemon Princes?

I'm inclined to say Daemon Princes, but I cannot provide any other reasoning for this than to point at their power (-> Celestine having defeated the Daemon Prince Gralastyx in single combat) and influence over the setting, so it's a gut-feeling thing. My knowledge on Chaos is, however, rather limited, as I've been focusing my attention elsewhere - is there a fundamental difference between Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes, or is it just a power/rarity/hierarchy thing?

Lynata wrote:

DemetriDominov wrote:They need a vessel to possess to enter the realm of reality unless they enter from a stable portal- which takes considerable effort and sacrifice to open and then maintain. It would seem as though Living Saints are something similar to this effect of possession/ ascension, especially St. Celestine who had life breathed back into her and then since has become some sort of divine Warpwalker.

*nods* Good point. Perhaps a Living Saint only comes into being through "possession" because the veil isn't quite thin enough yet for them to cross over like "real" daemons do from time to time. In places where the border between the warp and realspace is thin enough, the masses of humans required to "conjure" a "spirit of holy terror" are unable to exist/gather in sufficient number as too many of them would die before.

Hmm, this theory would swing well with other people's idea of the Emperor actually being a Chaos-God Himself - the Carrion-God, the Lord of Order. With the Living Saints as his own type of daemons. What a heretical thought.

That said, I'm rather sure in nobody at GW actually having given all of this as much thought as we do.

DemetriDominov wrote:So we have to ask the question, are Saints more like Greater Daemons, or are they more like Daemon Princes?

I'm inclined to say Daemon Princes, but I cannot provide any other reasoning for this than to point at their power (-> Celestine having defeated the Daemon Prince Gralastyx in single combat) and influence over the setting, so it's a gut-feeling thing. My knowledge on Chaos is, however, rather limited, as I've been focusing my attention elsewhere - is there a fundamental difference between Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes, or is it just a power/rarity/hierarchy thing?

My friends and I have always entertained a somewhat tongue and cheek idea about the Emperor being the god of Order. The idea being the strength of the Emperor is directly proportionate to the strength of the Chaos gods themselves as a counter-balance. One wonders if the Emperor could actually be more powerful now with the ability to interviene, via the warp, on a personal level to the crys of the billions by creating saints and champions of order (grim-dark tales of woe and a failing astronomicon not withstanding).

In an effort to keep the human race going, over time, the Imperium, in following the Emperors and then the Lords of Terra will, have needed to do great personal "evils" in support of the "greater good". Kind of like a surgeon using a meat-cleaver rather than a scalpel to root out a cancer. Chaos in this instance.

Maybe now that the Emperor is in the Warp and able to hear the cries of the multitudes he has the ability to use a scalpel now...

Or, maybe the Saints are the spontaeneous eruptions of Order that natually occur to counter the eruptions of Chaos and have nothing to do with him. Though that premise might necesitate opening a whole new can of worms. Perhaps there isn't just the Material plane and the Warp. Maybe the material universe is the neutral field of battle and there is a plane of order as well. Very conservative and not prone to emotional response unlike the Warp and psychic power. The Saints aren't created because of the cries of the mulitudes, but a "natural" meted response to an overwhelming Chaos presence.

Just random thoughs as I sit here frustrated trying to build another Forge World Hierophant...