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Kanluwen wrote:PDF do not have commissars as standard.

I could well be wrong, my experience with the PDF is not all that great.

Alexzandvar wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:PDF do not have commissars as standard.

I could well be wrong, my experience with the PDF is not all that great.

I don't think PDFs have ANY formal commissars, they might have retired commissars either as officers or filling the same role as IG commissars, but I doubt that the Imperium would go out of their way to supply commissars to PDFs.

Think of it this way, with a Guard unit you are always fighting, taking losses, and facing corruption in some form, in those cases commissars are necessary to maintain discipline, order, and loyalty. With a PDF they are only expected to hold the line until the Guard arrives, after which point no one cares what happens to them. In the few weeks or months it might take for regiments from nearby planets to arrive the PDF probably isn't going to fall to corruption, their morale might falter, but under such circumstances they probably would have collapsed even with commissars to maintain discipline. Also commissars are effectively like college graduates in the Imperium, they undergo a lot of training (mostly in religious matters and whatnot, but the point is that the Imperium invests a lot of resources into each commissar) and sending them to a backwater to make sure a random soldier doesn't abandon his worthless post is a waste of resource.

Certain planets like Terrax might have commissars for their PDF, but random planet: 2,374,843 along the eastern fringe probably won't get commissars since they are a minor planet with a crappy PDF and no close relations with the Schola Progenium.

DemetriDominov wrote:That's what I was getting at btw. The first line of defense is the PDF of the planet the IG regiments are raised on. All IG forces are commanded by the Administratum, including the PDF through planetary governors. All I'm saying is that the line between IG regiments and PDF's from the same homeworld are blurred.

The PDF are not commanded by the Administratum, nor are planetary governors outside of certain, agreed upon matters. The PDF are not part of the Imperial military heiarchy.

People always get in their heads that the Imperium is totalitarian, but they are not. They are Feudal. The local governors have certain responsibilities to their liege (the Imperium) and their subjects (the world). To the Imperium they must pay the tithe, establish worship of the Emperor, allow military passage, quarter troops, provide a PDF for the defense of their fief (world), and obey the commands of the Inquisition. If they don't live up to their responsibilities and oaths they can be replaced, but beyond that the Imperium legally can't touch governors, they can do whatever they want. Not that it is hard to come up with a reason they may have broken their oaths.

The PDF are the local governors/planets personal troops, and the Imperium largely can't command them beyond demanding them as part of the tithe.

purplefood wrote:
Blurred but by and large IG are better equipped, trained and (Usually) led.

Usually, but not always. Local PDFs can be equipped and trained to whatever level the local governor is willing to pay for. Some PDF regimens far outstrip the guard in terms of equipment and training.

Alexzandvar wrote:PDF Have Commissars like every other Imperial Fighting group. They are trained on planet by the Commisariat and not always Scholam trained.

PDF that are more likely to have Commissars are ones that were made from old guard regiments. But PDF do have them, especially hives.

Like the VPHC from the Guant's Ghosts book "Necropolis"

Again, no. The PDF is not part of the Imperial military, and thus have no commissars.

riplikash wrote:Some PDF regimens far outstrip the guard in terms of equipment and training.

They should find themselves recruited by the Munitorium fairly quickly then, though.

Which is probably the reason for why, at least as far as I've perceived the setting, most PDFs have such an abysmal reputation. Their planetary lords know full well that each increase in budget makes the regiment all the more attractive for recruitment into the Imperial Guard. So most don't bother and stick to the bare minimum applicable to their local situation.

Then again, perhaps you get a discount on your resource tithe when your PDF is above-average. I'm unsure how the Administratum would prorate this. Ahh, filing taxes must be even more of a nightmare in the 41st millennium.

If I'm not mistaken, doesn't Cadia rotate regiments to serve on and off world?

Cadia's "PDF" is not a "PDF" in the traditional sense of the term.

It is referred to as the "Interior Guard", and consists of fully vetted Guardsmen.

Lynata wrote:

riplikash wrote:Some PDF regimens far outstrip the guard in terms of equipment and training.

They should find themselves recruited by the Munitorium fairly quickly then, though.

Only as fast as the Adeptus Terra realize they can demand more and better troops as tithe from that world. The Empire is a slow-moving and stagnant society where information might take centuries to reach anyone who cares, after all. Grimdark.

And the tithes are standardized, aren't they? Broad classes for certain population densities and industrial levels. As long as a governor can supply what he's legally obliged to provide he can equip his PDF with whatever he can afford.

Good points. I was under the impression that the tithes are pretty draconian, but of course even then you'd have a few worlds that are better off than others. Though I'm still not buying that power-armoured PDF idea I've read about once.

And yeah, Cadia as a whole is pretty much under command of the Imperial Guard (the Castellan being an IG officer). You could probably argue that it doesn't even have a PDF in the traditional sense because its population is drafted into the IG right away. On the other hand, the IG doubles as Cadia's PDF by detaching regiments for garrison duty in form of the Interior Guard.

Lynata wrote:Good points. I was under the impression that the tithes are pretty draconian, but of course even then you'd have a few worlds that are better off than others. Though I'm still not buying that power-armoured PDF idea I've read about once.

It's not that they are always draconian, it's that the Administratum is so uncaring that they can be. They set your tithe to a 'reasonable level for expected output and growth over the next 500 years, to be re-evaluated bi-centennially'. But someone dropped a decimal point in some report, misfiled it under the wrong category, a political coup occurred, or the planet was struck with a natural disaster, or perhaps you are JUST over the cut off point, and suddenly the tithes are difficult if not impossible to pay, and the governors must work their people to the bone or be replaced for not performing their duties.

But it goes both ways. The Administratum is notoriously uncaring, slow acting, inefficient. A hive world may be classified as an agg world for 200 years, or the star maps may be wrong, or a planet may experience a sudden economic boom and it takes the Administratum 100 years to catch it, and then another 100 years to file it properly.

And lets not forget the corruption! You can never ignore the corruption the in the Imperium. Some lords are going to be well connected. Someone could have done a service to an inquisitor, who arranges tithes to be lowered. The governor may be the son or cousin of a high ranking official in the administrator. Or they may just be siphoning profits and credits off to the right administrator. There are all kinds of ways a world could be under tithed.

And, as was mentioned, tithes are fairly standardized, and governors have rights just as the Administratum does. They can't just raise tithes because a governor trains and equips his PDF well, at least not without jumping through some legal hoops. The Imperium is a feudal society, and in feudal societies fealty goes both ways. It's really the only way the Imperium can survive. Again, they are not a totalitarian dictatorship hell state, they are a feudal hell state. The horror comes not because the government (the imperium) oppresses you, but because your local lords can oppress the crap out of you, and the Imperium just doesn't care.

In the end the Imperium is a big, diverse, corrupt place, and there is plenty of room for well equipped PDF, and most anything else you can imagine.

I'd just like to interject on the old Commissar front that I was reading a Necro mag the other day containing a mini-campaign where a gang was persecuted by the PDF and were forced to get the hell out of Dodge. The troops were equipped exactly as you'd expect Guardsmen to be, and they were joined by a Commissar principally for the fact that PDFs are typically ill-disciplined, thus necessitating the constant prescence of an off-world, unsympathetic whip-cracker. I'll freely admit that was a fan idea, nothing official, but it makes sense to me. I'll see if I can find the exact quote.

Sounds logical to me to have a PDF that is suitable to the needs of the planet its based on and its an idea I have used for my main army - a world like Cadia / Armageddon that sees a lot of combat and as such has a pretty heavily armed PDF.

But in my case I went for "heavily armed" along the Elysian principles - unless its either fast enough to get to somewhere outside a major city quickly and / or is small and light enough that it can be dropped into a combat zone, its not in the PDF as its can't keep up with the local combat needs.

My PDF does however have the "back-up" of an IG Heavy Armour Battallion and (will have) some Macaldors [older design than the Russ according to FW fluff] as PDF tanks but they will be based to defend certain key areas as my world is supposed to be approaching (but not quite at) Forgeworld status so its starting to get some attention from "higher up".