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Running a Kantor Drop list right now with Honour Guard. Gonna beefout some chaos. Battle rep after.

chrisrawr wrote:Running a Kantor Drop list right now with Honour Guard. Gonna beefout some chaos. Battle rep after.

I love you.

Hey Dave, I love how nice clean the presentation is. I did find a typo I'd like to bring to your attention.

A Codicier may cast a single psychic power per-turn. An Epistolary and Chief Librarian may cast up to two Psychic Powers per-turn, whereas Chief Librarian Tigurius may cast up to three Psychic Powers per-turn.

Well, that was awesome.

Capture And Control, Dawn of War. His deployment, I failed steal. Deployed his plaguies on his objective and his lashprince #1. First turn assaulted one of my melta combat squads, other 3 Combat Squads are fine (Melta/Lascan, pretty basic, just there for the pod).

Goodbye squad, turn 1 goes by with nothing else of note; his oblits came on, along with his raiders full of pain. On my end, Pedro walks on from the edge with his retinue, all maximus fuximus strutting.

Turn 2, I'm excited for the drop, but I have to wait for his turn; Honour Guard saved 6/8 plasma wounds (2 on a regular joe) from being lashed into a circle and plasmacannoned by oblits, another melta tacsquad destroyed by battlecannon. His dread manages to miss with plas, saving me another 4 wounds. Stormshields are a lifesaver on them, though pedro also took 2 wounds.

He pops smoke on raiders. My turn begins.

All 3 pods drop fairly soundly around his raiders. Combat squad into 5plas 5melta, with a Hflamer in each (~365 points per unit with pod). Pop both Raiders through cover in 2 melta squads, third melta squad kills Termies, 2 plasma squads kill his khorne marines, and forfeit is called.

To be honest, he probably could've won it from there. Lashing me into circles for battle cannon and oblits wouldve done it, but the Sternguard Drop ruined his morale entirely - the fact that it happens on turn 2 now is HUGE, and was entirely decisive in the flow of this battle. Overall, the extra, and cheaper, options on a lot of the units that I don't normally take inspired me to take them. I'm going to be fussing with bionics later, but Sterndrop has been a favourite of mine, and it still shines strong.

chrisrawr wrote:
To be honest, he probably could've won it from there. Lashing me into circles for battle cannon and oblits wouldve done it, but the Sternguard Drop ruined his morale entirely - the fact that it happens on turn 2 now is HUGE, and was entirely decisive in the flow of this battle. Overall, the extra, and cheaper, options on a lot of the units that I don't normally take inspired me to take them. I'm going to be fussing with bionics later, but Sterndrop has been a favourite of mine, and it still shines strong.

Agreed, it moves Drop Pod lists from semi-viable to really strong. As a fellow Drop Pod-nut, I sincerely hope Games Workshop sees this and listens, although that's probably unlikely.

Yay I cant believe I didnt notice this sooner! Guess I'll whip up some lists, even if I know nothing about all the changes coming to 6th!

Thanks for the batrep Chris', interesting results. It didn't seem like a totally one-sided game, but does make me fear that drop pods could be a bit powerful - something I already suspected... But I've already got a fix for this:

Basically, combat-squad'ing will occur before deployment; meaning you cannot land a 10-man Sternguard squad and then split it up. It may seem like a nerf, but it can also benefit and seems fair to me.

kenshin620 wrote:Yay I cant believe I didnt notice this sooner! Guess I'll whip up some lists, even if I know nothing about all the changes coming to 6th!

Haha! Thanks man. If you could post some lists you come up with in this thread, that'd be great!



As ever, all C&C is welcome. Thanks!

Typo found!

*Flamestorm Cannons: Flamestorm Cannons confer the following ranged profile: Range: 6” Template* – Strength: 6 – AP: 3 – Heavy 1 To fire the Flamestorm cannon, place the template (within line of sight as usual) so that the narrow end is within 6" of the weapons and the large end is no closer to the weapon than the narrow end. The inferno cannon is then treated like any other template weapon

Dang. Good catch, will be edited!

Eh, to be honest, it wasn't the power of drop pod assault - it was the power of sternguard. I would've got the same results on turn 1 with regular DPA; I just feel that Turn 2 DPA aids the flow of the game.

Quick question: when working Word, did you ever have trouble when trying to write in text boxes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and on page 34, sgt. equipment, typo: Locater beacon

First list made, I actually really had no idea what I was doing

229-Chapter Master: Storm Bolter, Relic Blade, Hellfire Rounds, Bionics, Jump Pack, Company Master
125-Dreadnought: 2 Twin Linked Autocannons
125-Dreadnought: 2 Twin Linked Autocannons
210-Sternguard Veterans (7): 5 Combi Weapons, 2 Heavy Bolters
205-Tactical Squad (10): Sergeant with Power Fist, Melta Gun, Missile Launcher
40-Razorback
205-Tactical Squad (10): Sergeant with Power Fist, Melta Gun, Missile Launcher
40-Razorback
205-Tactical Squad (10): Sergeant with Power Fist, Melta Gun, Missile Launcher
40-Razorback
220-Assault Squad (10): Sergeant with Powerfist, 2 Flamers
70-Land Speeder: Multi Melta
70-Land Speeder: Multi Melta
70-Land Speeder: Multi Melta
70-Land Speeder: Multi Melta
70-Land Speeder: Multi Melta

1994


Taking the Iron Hands tactic and the Master of Assault company mastery. Split the army in two: dreads, sternguard, and combat squad missiles in the back and the razors and assault squad moving foward. Land speeders are mainly there to DS, though they still have their HB. Progressive fire makes them quite useful against infantry

In other news, I think I've decided upon my next project:

Rules for The Horus Heresy, including the Primarch Project.

broodstar wrote:Hey Dave, I love how nice clean the presentation is. I did find a typo I'd like to bring to your attention.

A Codicier may cast a single psychic power per-turn. An Epistolary and Chief Librarian may cast up to two Psychic Powers per-turn, whereas Chief Librarian Tigurius may cast up to three Psychic Powers per-turn.

I'm not sure I see the typo? I'll add an 'a' before Chief Librarian if that's what you were referring to?

chrisrawr wrote:Eh, to be honest, it wasn't the power of drop pod assault - it was the power of sternguard. I would've got the same results on turn 1 with regular DPA; I just feel that Turn 2 DPA aids the flow of the game.

I agree, but I feel the problem with the power of Sternguard was in large part due to their ability to split into 2 squads upon arrival. I agree that turn 2 is a big improvement, but I felt 2 separate squads effectively turning up together was a potential risk and your bat-rep helped confirm this for me tbh.
It does also provide some benefits, particularly for squads with a mix of Heavy and Normal weapons (such as Tactical Squads); being able to go half in the pod, half deploying normally.

McNinja wrote:Quick question: when working Word, did you ever have trouble when trying to write in text boxes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and on page 34, sgt. equipment, typo: Locater beacon

Good spot, will be corrected.

I'm not sure what problem in particular you're referring to to be honest?
Sometimes it can be a bit awkward, but it's one of the easier parts to work with I find. The positioning of them can be a pain in the arse however!

kenshin620 wrote:First list made, I actually really had no idea what I was doing

229-Chapter Master: Storm Bolter, Relic Blade, Hellfire Rounds, Bionics, Jump Pack, Company Master
125-Dreadnought: 2 Twin Linked Autocannons
125-Dreadnought: 2 Twin Linked Autocannons
210-Sternguard Veterans (7): 5 Combi Weapons, 2 Heavy Bolters
205-Tactical Squad (10): Sergeant with Power Fist, Melta Gun, Missile Launcher
40-Razorback
205-Tactical Squad (10): Sergeant with Power Fist, Melta Gun, Missile Launcher
40-Razorback
205-Tactical Squad (10): Sergeant with Power Fist, Melta Gun, Missile Launcher
40-Razorback
220-Assault Squad (10): Sergeant with Powerfist, 2 Flamers
70-Land Speeder: Multi Melta
70-Land Speeder: Multi Melta
70-Land Speeder: Multi Melta
70-Land Speeder: Multi Melta
70-Land Speeder: Multi Melta

1994


Taking the Iron Hands tactic and the Master of Assault company mastery. Split the army in two: dreads, sternguard, and combat squad missiles in the back and the razors and assault squad moving foward. Land speeders are mainly there to DS, though they still have their HB. Progressive fire makes them quite useful against infantry

Thanks for the list man. Doesn't look imbalanced to me, which is what I'm looking for!

Just Dave wrote:[size=17]
I'm not sure what problem in particular you're referring to to be honest?
Sometimes it can be a bit awkward, but it's one of the easier parts to work with I find. The positioning of them can be a pain in the arse however!

When I write too much in a single text box, the input starts to lag. Certain boxes are up to a second or so now between when I hit the key on the keyboard and actually seeing the character in the text box. It's weird.

McNinja wrote:

Just Dave wrote:[size=17]
I'm not sure what problem in particular you're referring to to be honest?
Sometimes it can be a bit awkward, but it's one of the easier parts to work with I find. The positioning of them can be a pain in the arse however!

When I write too much in a single text box, the input starts to lag. Certain boxes are up to a second or so now between when I hit the key on the keyboard and actually seeing the character in the text box. It's weird.

Ooooh yeah. Yep, I have that problem too; when it comes to the end of creating a 60-page doc in particular. You'll hopefully get used to it... It's like working on a crappy computer; think of it like that!

Oh, Whoops then, misread you. Yeah, no, it doesn't matter when the split happens to stern-drop. They're always gonna be 5melta/5plas for me anyways.

I laughed at some of the comments you made, in the improvement section. And no comments on devastator weapons?
I laughed mostly at the come at me bro and the
(when was the last time a Predator didn’t have sponsons, in-game or in the background?)

Though I did notice that on the Stalker Pattern Squad
Any model may replace his Scout Armour with: Power Armour – 3pts
They are veterans, why wouldn't they be wearing scout armor? That means they will cost 27 points per a pop
PLus Strength 2 for stalker pattern boltguns really?

So Im finally back in touch with the world. Ill open up by stating that Im typing this on my phone, and as such, some errors and lack of apostrophes may occur.

That out of the way, I must say that I really like this codex, a lot. There are some good changes that may seem like nerfs (Vulkan, stormshields, cost of SCs) but in my eyes are positive changes for overall balance. There was very little that jumped out as a must take option. Every FOC slot has viable options that be used to fill in anti-tank or anti-infantry options.

Tac squads finally have a role; that of anti-infantry, with the rerolls to bolters with combat tactics and the heavy flamer option. They can also still be used as anti-tank bunkers with melta/MM, which is nice, and they can also be used in a decent MSU razor army. Overall, I really like the tac squadchanges.

Ill go into greater detail about everything once Im at my computer. However, if I remember correctly, I believethe rhino/razors were listed as side AV 10 which I imagine being an error. Also, is the fireraptor intentionally not am assault vehicle? That would make me sad.

Ill be back with more, but I think its another excellent dex, great work.

Some potential changes judging by 6th Ed Rumours:
- Counting as stationary for Rapid Fire is now redundant. This may change to BS2 for snap fire/overwatch-defensive fire.
- Techmarines no longer repair damage results, instead automatically restore a hull point, with the ability to restore a second by a dice roll (modified by Servo-harnesses etc.)
- Land Raiders probably down to 235-ish pts. Will need to know more about vehicle movement and shooting in particular 1st.
- May make a signum-esque equipment to aid skyfire/shooting planes.
- Not allow Kantor to ally with Orks.
- Auspex may boost defensive fire.
- Tempest and Fireraptors become fliers.

Blacksails wrote:So Im finally back in touch with the world. Ill open up by stating that Im typing this on my phone, and as such, some errors and lack of apostrophes may occur.

That out of the way, I must say that I really like this codex, a lot. There are some good changes that may seem like nerfs (Vulkan, stormshields, cost of SCs) but in my eyes are positive changes for overall balance. There was very little that jumped out as a must take option. Every FOC slot has viable options that be used to fill in anti-tank or anti-infantry options.

Tac squads finally have a role; that of anti-infantry, with the rerolls to bolters with combat tactics and the heavy flamer option. They can also still be used as anti-tank bunkers with melta/MM, which is nice, and they can also be used in a decent MSU razor army. Overall, I really like the tac squadchanges.

Ill go into greater detail about everything once Im at my computer. However, if I remember correctly, I believethe rhino/razors were listed as side AV 10 which I imagine being an error. Also, is the fireraptor intentionally not am assault vehicle? That would make me sad.

Ill be back with more, but I think its another excellent dex, great work.

Aaaah, you survived your survival thing then?

I'll double check the rhino AV, but yes, the fireraptor is not an assault vehicle as its primarily a gunship and I'm not a fan of the shovingterminatorsdownyourthroatthroughstormravens mechanic, personally...

I'm pleased to know you like the changes man, thanks. A lot of them benefit for Sallies too, which I guess is a plus!

Also pleased that you don't think (some) things have been nerfed, but instead balanced - which as you can imagine was my intention.
Tbh I'm really pleased with the internal and external balance of this Codex. Without trying to blow my own trumpet, I do believe all-to-almost all units are usable.

Thanks again mate.

Asherian Command wrote:I laughed at some of the comments you made, in the improvement section. And no comments on devastator weapons?
I laughed mostly at the come at me bro and the
(when was the last time a Predator didn’t have sponsons, in-game or in the background?)

Though I did notice that on the Stalker Pattern Squad
Any model may replace his Scout Armour with: Power Armour – 3pts
They are veterans, why wouldn't they be wearing scout armor? That means they will cost 27 points per a pop
PLus Strength 2 for stalker pattern boltguns really?

Thanks man.

I did originally have a rule called Kill it With Fire! for the LotD, but ended up cutting it...
Glad you liked the 'humour'(?) though!

I didn't think the Devs really needed explaining tbh; they use Combat Tactics and BP's less than Tacs, so cost less, whilst their weapons are roughly the same price as Blood Angels. Devs have a lot of other things in the 'dex they can combine with to make them better also. Is that explanation good with you?

Stalker Pattern Bolters benefit from my sniper rule (see the page after their listing); this means their effective strength ranges from 5-8, which hopefully will seem better for you?

Appreciate the feedback!

chrisrawr wrote:Oh, Whoops then, misread you. Yeah, no, it doesn't matter when the split happens to stern-drop. They're always gonna be 5melta/5plas for me anyways.

And I can't blame you!
Just remember they CAN'T combat squad AFTER arrival, so you might consider heavy weapons and combat squading for mini-devs? Or keeping the 10 man uber-death squads...

I really like it! The rebalancing of the named characters in particular.

My one little peeve, though, is that Force Dome is -very- powerful and ripe for abuse. It basically takes the concept of KFF Big Mek, improves it and applies it to an army with good saves all around and AV13-14 tanks that can still pop smoke.

I'd limit it to either the unit attached to the Librarian (so you can run him with shooty terms and never mourn the loss of Storm Shields, or guide an important scoring unit safely to its destination!), or to a single unit within 6 inches.

Sounds good that you'll be on top of a 6th update!

I made a tad bit of a silly list, scout swarm (ish)! Just to be sure, any special ammo a character takes still applies to his bike right?

Alright, back at my computer and ready to go into detail about this dex.

Oh, and yes, I survived my survival training, but I'm still head to toe covered in mosquito bites and my stomach still hasn't recovered from the no food phase of the course.

As I mentioned before, the core of every space marine list are the tac squads, and you tweaked them just the right amount. The inclusion of the heavy flamer option really allows them to be used as a true anti-infantry option, while still leaving plenty of options for melta bunkers, plasma death, and MSU razor spam. I won't comment on scouts as I don't like them.

The HQs are well done, and V.2 really brought their costs in line with existing codices. What I really like about the non-named HQs - and the same with your Eldar dex - is the ability to bring a truly customizable, unique and flavourful force without being forced to take a special character. I can have my Sallies with a Captain or Chapter Master using Fires of Battle, while still having the option to bring Vulkan for his awesomeness. The chapter traits coupled with the company master upgrades really opens up a lot of options and flexibility in army design. Libbies, Chappies, and MotF were all subtly improved, particularly with the flavourful additions of Chief Librarian and Master of Sanctity. Overall, a solid selection of HQs that each can bring something unique that can affect the army as a whole or be a beat-stick in CC. To be honest, I would have been happy with your codex if all you changed was the HQs and tac squads, everything else is just gravy.

The elites slot is full of good choices as well. Assault terminators got a 'nerf' with the stormshields, but I like it as they're no longer a 100% no-brainer option. Tac termies benefit greatly from special ammo now, which makes sense seeing as they're veterans. Dreadnoughts were changed subtly, but I like it. Venerable is a little cheaper and now has a reason to be taken for the conversion beamer and in conjuction with Master of the Siege. The ability to take venerable ironclads is also a nice option, as are the ironclad's many arm options (which I'll go into later, I haz questionz).

Sternguard haven't changed much, but they didn't need to. I don't know quite what to make of Stalker vets and Deathwatch kill team, though they at least seem like fun and fluffy options. I'm a mech guy through and through (except my horde IG), so I can't quite see a reason to include either option, but they certainly seem decent and a lot of fun. Techmarines got better, as now the first one doesn't suck up a whole slot, as well as servitors being cheaper. Legion of the Damned are better with an inviolable FnP save.

Assault marines can finally have a role by making them scoring, jumping packs of death who are adept at killing hordes. Vanguard Vets still suffer from being expensive when given jump packs, but at least they have other options now. The Land Speeder Tempest is interesting, particularly is the 5++ jink save is true for 6th ed, meaning it will become a pretty durable little flyer. Nothing in the fast attack slot really jumps out at me, but I've always never been impressed by any FA choices in a lot of codices.

Heavy support is filled with goodies, as is to be expected. Devs are nicely priced, and the Pred patterns are also fluff and well priced. Thunderfires no longer die to a stiff breeze, which is what was killing them before, however that comes at an increased cost which is fair by me. Whirlwinds also no longer suck! Which is awesome, and including one is definitely a good idea, particularly with the anti-air missiles. Vindis pair up great with siege shields (which are ing awesome), and Land Raiders got the buffs they needed (Phobos and Redeemer). Fireraptor is cool, though I haven't quite figured out how to use it.

All in all, the changes are promising and I like what I see. I've got a bunch of lists I'll post below, all in the 1500pts range, and all of which in the semi-competitive to competitive level.

Pedro Kantor Sternguard MSU


Armoured Assault - Preds and Vindis


Armoured Assault - Preds and Dreds


My Future Sallies

Just Dave wrote:- Counting as stationary for Rapid Fire is now redundant. This may change to BS2 for snap fire/overwatch-defensive fire.

Probably the wisest course of action. This is what I'm already doing with mine and it seems to work out pretty good, gives Bolters a sort of "true grit" feel without giving them the +1 Attack in close combat.

Can't help myself, have to post this list, I love it too much for its pure unbridled awesomeness.

Hilariously Awesome Fireraptor List - 1500

Captain - Master-crafted Thunderhammer, Infernus Pistol, Artificer Armour, Armoured Assault/160pts <-----In Bravo
Librarian - Master-crafted force weapon, Artificer Armour, Force Dome, Null Zone/125pts <------In Bravo

Deathwatch Kill Team - Thunderhammer, 2x Combi-flamer, 2x Power swords, Suspensor Units, Kraken Bolts, Hellfire Bolts/270pts <----In Alpha

Tactical Squad (5) - Meltagun, Combi-melta/105pts <----In Bravo
Tactical Squad (10) - Flamer, Combi-flamer, Heavy Flamer/185pts <----In Charlie

Fireraptor Gunship Alpha - Multi-melta, TL-Lascannons/215pts
Fireraptor Gunship Bravo - Multi-melta, TL-Lascannons/215pts
Fireraptor Gunship Charlie - Typhoon Missile Launcher/225pts

Only three vehicles, but who cares when they're frontally immune to melta, reduce ranged weapons to AP-, are AV13, and can move flat out and still shoot every turn. When required, hop out and toast xenos or lean out the door to pop melta. Hilarously awesome, I think so. Won't be winning any tournies, but it will certainly piss off your Eldar friend for being even faster than them.

*EDIT* On second thought, I don't even need the Captain. Those 160pts can easily become 2x MM/MM speeders to deal with enemy armour quickly.

Sephyr wrote:I really like it! The rebalancing of the named characters in particular.

My one little peeve, though, is that Force Dome is -very- powerful and ripe for abuse. It basically takes the concept of KFF Big Mek, improves it and applies it to an army with good saves all around and AV13-14 tanks that can still pop smoke.

I'd limit it to either the unit attached to the Librarian (so you can run him with shooty terms and never mourn the loss of Storm Shields, or guide an important scoring unit safely to its destination!), or to a single unit within 6 inches.

Thanks man, appreciate the feedback! I also appreciate that you think the named characters are balanced, as I imagine some people would wince at an initial look of some of the changes, so thanks!

I'm not sure if you noticed, but a key part to Force Dome is that it only affects models within 6", rather than units.
Initially, when I designed it, it's current incarnation is what I went for and initially I too thought it could be overpowered. However, upon pondering it more, I thought it was OK and suitable for inclusion, as it's balanced by the following:
- Small area of affect; to benefit an entire or multiple units, they need to be packed pretty f***ing close. Not a real problem for vehicles however...
- Ranged, non-psychic attacks only.
- Leaves units (e.g. Terminators) vulnerable to one of their most common/prevalent threats; massed fire.

I think it's best use is for vehicles, but even then it may be limited - particular as in 6th, apparently AP- has no affect - as you can fit more vehicles (than units) within 6".
I thought about it's potential with Terminators, but it still leaves them vulnerable to massed fire (e.g. Lasguns) and Power Weapons.
I thought about it's potential with vehicles, where it is more beneficial, but I would say far from overpowered or similarly powered to Blood Angels/Grey Knights/Space Wolves abilities.
I did design a list with a Libby with Force Dome advancing in a rhino behind 3 Vindi's with siege shields; giving them all Force Dome. However, Force Dome ultimately increased the chance of an immobilised or weapon destroyed result; which would cripple the vindi's, whilst I think using it to protect other vehicles - minus a Land Raider deathstar - may be a waste of a Librarian; as Rhinos/Razorbacks/Land Speeders are too fragile anyway and Predators are often too far from the action to make full use of a Librarian.

However...
Allies raises a serious potential problem, as Paladins are largely unaffected by small arms fire, but I don't think they're affected as they're grudging allies or whatever.
FNP or Bionics also somewhat negates the effects of small arms fire.
Blacksails list below makes Fireraptors look f***ing tough.

Again, thanks for the feedback man. All further comments on this or other points are welcome.
Other peeps, I'll respond to your posts another time!

So far from reading;

Space Marines get Acute Senses base. Night Vision is another rule now, and Night Fighting apparently has a 50% chance of happening all game.

Space Marines snapfire at BS.

Space Marines fire 2 shots at Full Range with Rapidfire, or 3 within Half?

Look Out, Sir! for Sergeants on a 3+ instead of 4+.

Multiassault without losing +1A from Disorganized Charge

Heavy Bolter could be a Salvo weapon, with 2 shots/4 shots and retain its rule.

Thanks a lot for lists and feedback Blacksails, it is MUCH appreciated. Thanks a lot man. I'm glad you like the changes and I really appreciate your comments. Thanks man!

chrisrawr wrote:So far from reading;

Space Marines get Acute Senses base. Night Vision is another rule now, and Night Fighting apparently has a 50% chance of happening all game.

Space Marines snapfire at BS.

Space Marines fire 2 shots at Full Range with Rapidfire, or 3 within Half?

Look Out, Sir! for Sergeants on a 3+ instead of 4+.

Multiassault without losing +1A from Disorganized Charge

Heavy Bolter could be a Salvo weapon, with 2 shots/4 shots and retain its rule.

Honestly, and no offense, but I can't see myself including any of those changes.
I don't yet believe any changes that significant or powerful are needed yet. Outside of adjusting Combat Tactics, I don't think the basic Space Marine needs improving, which Night Vision, Look out Sir!, Multiassault etc. would do IMHO.

Just a note, I will be updating this and my Eldar Codex for 6th Edition.
It may take a little while however; I care very little for 6th at the moment, so I'm kinda lacking motivation...

If you need a hand mate, just ask, i play fairly often and am willing to lend a hand

Just Dave wrote:Just a note, I will be updating this and my Eldar Codex for 6th Edition.
It may take a little while however; I care very little for 6th at the moment, so I'm kinda lacking motivation...

I hear ya man. I'm slowly trying to absorb the rules and what they actually mean, but I'm just not as excited about the game as I was in 5th. Maybe I just need a bunch of games, we'll see.

Either way, it should be interesting what you'll come up with for this dex and the Eldar one.

Cheers!