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Right, but there's nothing requiring you to declare your movement distance either.

FWIW, around here from what I've seen, people roll difficult dangerous tests, then move - not announcing anything (other than which unit the test is for...).
Not that I have any fast skimmers (let alone vehicles) but that's how I play as well.

Rigeld2, one thing I wanted to mention that you seemed to say about difficult terrain, is that if the unit rolls for difficult terrain and decides not to physically move their models after rolling, they still count as having moved. You make it seem like by choosing not to change your displacement they somehow dont count as moving for all purposes.

Next, when moving a vehicle, the speed categories all have different movement distances. You claim that you do not declare what your speed category is, and simply move up to your maximum distance and retroactively apply the speed category.

My point is that the vehicles maximum speed changes based on what speed category is used. If you are going combat, your max movement is 6 inches. If cruising, your max movement is 12, or less for vehicles like a Leman russ. You dont check your range for cruising speed, check your terrain for combat, and actually move flat out.

We do all agree that the speed categories, on their own, are mutually exclusive right? A vehicle that moved 15 inches did not count as being stationary, combat, cruising AND flat out in that one movement phase. It was only one of those things.

We also have numerous examples of vehicles declaring a speed category before moving, but no mention of a retroactive speed category, right?

DevianID wrote:Rigeld2, one thing I wanted to mention that you seemed to say about difficult terrain, is that if the unit rolls for difficult terrain and decides not to physically move their models after rolling, they still count as having moved. You make it seem like by choosing not to change your displacement they somehow dont count as moving for all purposes.

That's not my intention. They absolutely count as moving. But they don't have to actually move - which is an important distinction.
I'm not saying that a fast skimmer that rolls a dangerous terrain test can say "LOLJK I'm not moving so I'm not immobilized." I'm saying that no matter what he was intending to do, he's not wrecked because of that immobilization.

As for the disembarking that someone is bound to bring up- the unit can get out but can't move (as the transport they were in moved).

Next, when moving a vehicle, the speed categories all have different movement distances. You claim that you do not declare what your speed category is, and simply move up to your maximum distance and retroactively apply the speed category.

My point is that the vehicles maximum speed changes based on what speed category is used. If you are going combat, your max movement is 6 inches. If cruising, your max movement is 12, or less for vehicles like a Leman russ. You dont check your range for cruising speed, check your terrain for combat, and actually move flat out.

Why not? That's what the rules allow. A Leman Russ' maximum speed is 12". Therefore he's allowed to measure 12" in every direction to see where he'd like to move, then move anywhere in that bubble.
You don't "check terrain for combat" you check terrain. And if that terrain test is failed and you've moved under 12", all that happens is that you're immobilized. If you've moved over 12" you've moved flat out and are therefore destroyed (if you're a fast skimmer).

You're trying to make the dangerous terrain test different based on intent - it's not. You have no rules basis for saying that it is. Unless you can cite something relevant that is.

We do all agree that the speed categories, on their own, are mutually exclusive right? A vehicle that moved 15 inches did not count as being stationary, combat, cruising AND flat out in that one movement phase. It was only one of those things.

edit: Not 100% true - there are multiple vehicles that can count as being in different categories depending on other criteria.

We also have numerous examples of vehicles declaring a speed category before moving, but no mention of a retroactive speed category, right?

Can you cite one? Or a requirement to declare before moving? Not a single other person has been able to (because it doesn't exist) but I'll give you the opportunity as well.

rigeld2 wrote: A Leman Russ' maximum speed is 12". Therefore he's allowed to measure 12" in every direction to see where he'd like to move, then move anywhere in that bubble.

Actually, a Leman Russ' maximum "speed" is 6+D6", rolled for every time it moves Cruising Speed.

Of course now I am curious, Since the wording of the rule implies you don't roll until you have already completed the 6" combat speed, does rolling for cruising distance make you count as having moved cruising speed, even if you don't move (similar to rolling difficult terrain makes you count as having moved, even if you don't)?

We also have numerous examples of vehicles declaring a speed category before moving, but no mention of a retroactive speed category, right?

Can you cite one? Or a requirement to declare before moving? Not a single other person has been able to (because it doesn't exist) but I'll give you the opportunity as well.

The closest thing I can think of, is Ramming, where you have to move as fast as possible (which to me at least, implies cruising speed/flat-out depending on vehicle type). The second closest thing I can think of (off the top of my head anyway) is Tank Shocking, however you don't declare which speed you are using, just how far you are going to move.

there are multiple vehicles that can count as being in different categories depending on other criteria.

I agree with the not 100%, BUT exceptions have additional rules. The monolith is a good example, as it moved combat speed but counts as stationary to fire. However, it did not move both combat and stationary, it only moved combat--what it counts as after that doesnt matter in the movement phase.

One example of a vehicle declaring speed is with tank shock. They must move at least cruising speed.

As for the leman russ, I disagree that it has a maximum speed of 12 inches as you presented it. When the russ moves at cruising speed it moves 6+1d6. The roll MAY result in a max speed of 12, but it may also be only 7 for that phase.

Next, as for movement versus measurment. If a vehicle is moving and rolling terrain, it has gone beyond the page 11 movement premeasurment. At that point, you have measured your distance and are making a move of x inches. This move, if interupted before completion, does not change your move. If you measure out to your hearts content, select a spot 15 inches away, and procede to make a 15 inch move, being interupted in the middle of a 15 inch move does not mean you gain 2 movements, a 7.5 inch move and a second 7.5 inch move. It is still a 15 inch move that is interupted.

You only 'declare' distance when tank shocking.

The general rules handle if you move or are going to move flat out.

The only time when you declare flat out is when tankshocking so the only thing the 'going to move' applies to is the rare situation when you declare a tank shock flat out. If you flatout tank shock and blow up for whatever reason, you can't disembark.

Other than that, movement class is distance traveled, not intended to travel.

Other than that, movement class is distance traveled, not intended to travel.

Except that is not 100% accurate. If a vehicle is making a 12 inch move, before it moves you know it is going to be 12 inches, as you selected where it was going to go before it got there. Or, put another way, you measured to that spot, THEN moved the vehicle. At the point you move the vehicle, it's movement is set as a 12 inch move. If it only makes it 6 inches, for example, that doesnt change the fact that it was making a 12 inch move.

IE, a land raider is making a 12 inch tank shock. Before completing the move, it gets immoblized, either with a death or glory or dangerous terrain check, after only 3 inches. It does not now count as moving at combat speed for moving 3 inches, as it made a 12 inch move this movement phase that only ended up going 3 inches.

DevianID wrote:

there are multiple vehicles that can count as being in different categories depending on other criteria.

I agree with the not 100%, BUT exceptions have additional rules. The monolith is a good example, as it moved combat speed but counts as stationary to fire. However, it did not move both combat and stationary, it only moved combat--what it counts as after that doesnt matter in the movement phase.

True enough, and the point I was trying to make.

One example of a vehicle declaring speed is with tank shock. They must move at least cruising speed.

Actually, you must move at least combat speed and you must declare your distance before moving.

BRB 68 wrote:To make this kind of attack, first turn the vehicle on the
spot in the direction you intend to move it and declare
how many inches the vehicle is going to move. The
vehicle must move at least at combat speed.

That's not an example, it's an exception - It's extremely specific to Tank Shocking.

As for the leman russ, I disagree that it has a maximum speed of 12 inches as you presented it. When the russ moves at cruising speed it moves 6+1d6. The roll MAY result in a max speed of 12, but it may also be only 7 for that phase.

I forgot about that, so the Russ is a bad example. Throw a GK Rhino in there instead.

Next, as for movement versus measurment. If a vehicle is moving and rolling terrain, it has gone beyond the page 11 movement premeasurment. At that point, you have measured your distance and are making a move of x inches. This move, if interupted before completion, does not change your move. If you measure out to your hearts content, select a spot 15 inches away, and procede to make a 15 inch move, being interupted in the middle of a 15 inch move does not mean you gain 2 movements, a 7.5 inch move and a second 7.5 inch move. It is still a 15 inch move that is interupted.

Selecting a spot and then moving implies a declaration of speed - there's no such rule. Even if I roll for terrain, there's no requirement I move any distance. But if I roll, I have to live with the roll.
If I rolled and passed the test, then decided not to move, would you have a problem? According to what you just said, that would be illegal (and it's not).
What you're saying is that if I measure 6 inches with my foot infantry out of area terrain, roll for difficult and get a 3, I must still move them 3" towards the point I "selected". That's demonstrably false.

DevianID wrote:

Other than that, movement class is distance traveled, not intended to travel.

Except that is not 100% accurate. If a vehicle is making a 12 inch move, before it moves you know it is going to be 12 inches, as you selected where it was going to go before it got there. Or, put another way, you measured to that spot, THEN moved the vehicle. At the point you move the vehicle, it's movement is set as a 12 inch move. If it only makes it 6 inches, for example, that doesnt change the fact that it was making a 12 inch move.

Yes it does. it is a 6" movement, because when you move regularly, there is no need to pre-declare. I can make any number of movements I want, I can move 3", pivot, 3" pivot, and 6". I can also make 3" move, hit difficult terrain and immobilize and fail. There is no declared single movement. It is as many movements as I feel like making.

IE, a land raider is making a 12 inch tank shock. Before completing the move, it gets immobilized, either with a death or glory or dangerous terrain check, after only 3 inches. It does not now count as moving at combat speed for moving 3 inches, as it made a 12 inch move this movement phase that only ended up going 3 inches.

*ONLY* tankshocking does it count as a 12" move because you were forced to declare. If I was just driving across the table and got stopped at 3" then I only went 3" and count as moving 3". Tankshocking has special rules regular movement does not. The restriction of 'going to move flat out' only impacts declared actions like tankshocking.

You know we have less than 2 weeks for this to matter before we get to argue about whatever the 6th edition rules have to say.

Kommissar Kel wrote:You know we have less than 2 weeks for this to matter before we get to argue about whatever the 6th edition rules have to say.

Well, a little longer - Feast of Blades at least is using 5th until August 1.

Actually, you must move at least combat speed and you must declare your distance before moving

Sorry, dont have my rules handy, I misspoke there. Thanks for the clarification!

If I rolled and passed the test, then decided not to move, would you have a problem? According to what you just said, that would be illegal (and it's not).

If you rolled for terrain, regardless of the outcome of the die roll, you will have moved/counted as moving if you fail the test.

Here is a question--since I dont have my rules handy for another 3 hours or so, doesnt the rules make a big distinction between measuring your move, and actually moving on page 11ish? IE, you can measure and change your mind, and thats fine, but you cant actually move and then change your mind.

DevianID wrote:

If I rolled and passed the test, then decided not to move, would you have a problem? According to what you just said, that would be illegal (and it's not).

If you rolled for terrain, regardless of the outcome of the die roll, you will have moved/counted as moving if you fail the test.

Correct. I'm not disputing that.

Here is a question--since I dont have my rules handy for another 3 hours or so, doesnt the rules make a big distinction between measuring your move, and actually moving on page 11ish? IE, you can measure and change your mind, and thats fine, but you cant actually move and then change your mind.

You can move one unit all you want, but once you move on to another unit you cannot change a previous unit's move.
There's no distinction between measuring and moving for a single unit.

DevianID wrote:

Actually, you must move at least combat speed and you must declare your distance before moving

Sorry, dont have my rules handy, I misspoke there. Thanks for the clarification!

If I rolled and passed the test, then decided not to move, would you have a problem? According to what you just said, that would be illegal (and it's not).

If you rolled for terrain, regardless of the outcome of the die roll, you will have moved/counted as moving if you fail the test.

Here is a question--since I dont have my rules handy for another 3 hours or so, doesnt the rules make a big distinction between measuring your move, and actually moving on page 11ish? IE, you can measure and change your mind, and thats fine, but you cant actually move and then change your mind.

Nope, it doesn't. I had these rules posted on the red-plane-thread. You move any unit by simply moving it. You are also allowed to change your mind and redo the move as often as you like, until you move another unit.

Considering the wonky dangerous terrain rule for vehicles(immobilize where you failed the test), RAW is something like this:

1) Pick unit
2) Make difficult terrain roll (irrelevant to most vehicles)
3) Move up to maximum movement distance.
3a) Redo 3 as often as you like
4) Make a dangerous terrain roll
4a) If failed, move vehicle back to where it failed the roll
5) Pick next unit

What about skimmers that don't move but do move?

I.E. don't travel any distance but gain the 4+ save?

They're "declared" to be moving flat out without actually moving anything.

Also, for a Leman Russ, do you roll the D6 for it's Cruising Speed, then based on what you get, decide not to move at cruising speed?

And if you DO roll for cruising speed, but immobilize yourself before you move at all, can you fire all of your guns as you haven't moved at all? Do you fire as if you had moved at Combat Speed? Cruising speed?

Are any of those questions not clearly answered by my post right above yours?

Unit1126PLL wrote:What about skimmers that don't move but do move?

I.E. don't travel any distance but gain the 4+ save?

They're "declared" to be moving flat out without actually moving anything.

Under no interpretation of the rules can a vehicle moving 12" or less ever be moving flat out.

Also, for a Leman Russ, do you roll the D6 for it's Cruising Speed, then based on what you get, decide not to move at cruising speed?

You do not decide to move at cruising speed. You roll a d6 for your maximum movement distance and then decide how far you move.

And if you DO roll for cruising speed, but immobilize yourself before you move at all, can you fire all of your guns as you haven't moved at all? Do you fire as if you had moved at Combat Speed? Cruising speed?

You roll for dangerous terrain after you have completed your move, as described above. At that time, you have already moved your vehicle at either cruising or combat speed.

Jidmah wrote:Are any of those questions not clearly answered by my post right above yours?

Unit1126PLL wrote:What about skimmers that don't move but do move?

I.E. don't travel any distance but gain the 4+ save?

They're "declared" to be moving flat out without actually moving anything.

Under no interpretation of the rules can a vehicle moving 12" or less ever be moving flat out.

Yes, it can. It is entirely possible for a skimmer to gain a 4+ cover save AND be hit automatically in the assault phase right after without suffering any damage results at all.

Ony if it moved more than 12" in a circle. If it moved any less, it will not gain a cover save.

Keep in mind that getting hit in combat is something completely independent of your movement distance and speed. Only displacement counts.

Jidmah wrote:Ony if it moved more than 12" in a circle. If it moved any less, it will not gain a cover save.

Keep in mind that getting hit in combat is something completely independent of your movement distance and speed. Only displacement counts.

That's my point. The model didn't "move" and the only way you have any idea that it did is the opponent says so, or "declared" it.

Which apparently you aren't allowed to do.

What? Of course it did move. It moved more than 12". It ended up in the same spot as before and thus is suffering automatic hits.

Telling your opponent that a vehicle has done that circle movement without moving it is an accepted shortcut, but strictly speaking, a violation of the rules.

Youre mixing up allowed iwth required

You are not *required* to declare speed
You are *allowed* to declare speed if you wish

Technically you should make the person move the vehicle in a perfect circle (or forward 6.1" back 6.1") if they want to claim a cover save, as there is no allowance for not moving and claiming it has in the rules.

Jidmah wrote:What? Of course it did move. It moved more than 12". It ended up in the same spot as before and thus is suffering automatic hits.

Telling your opponent that a vehicle has done that circle movement without moving it is an accepted shortcut, but strictly speaking, a violation of the rules.

So it is reasonable to ask your opponent to actually move the model, in the event that there doesn't seem to be enough room to maneuver because of enemy models (what with those huge skimmer-hulls on the flyboys).

The skimmer ignores the intervening models.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The skimmer ignores the intervening models.

Fair enough - it still seems curious to me but it is by the book.

He might not be able to land where he was, because that would be within 1" of a model. Due to vehicle assault rules, you could start your move with models in base contact.