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I thought I was going to blow everyone's mind by finding out the Catachan codex gave the IG all S4, but they are S3. sadface

The S's do represent a range of strengths, and this should be obvious. Orks are stronger than humans, but not enough to warrant S4. Just because marines are a standard army doesn't mean people should treat their stats as standard. Marines are superhumans with some starting stats at a human's maximum potential (ignoring augmentation). Maybe it's an even greater difference now seeing as all the humans basically have the same profile. In 2nd anyone above a lieutenant in any army had S and T higher.

Whoever gave orks furious charge was a genius. Perfect Waaagh! representation on the charge.

I'd agree that orks certainly look like Strength 4, but maybe because they are part fungus they don't generate the speed to create enough shock to create sufficient blunt trauma?

Seriously though, giving them a boost in strength would require them to be paired down significantly in other areas, such as giving them a WS of 2 or making them flee at the drop of a hat. They work pretty well as they are.

I play orks and here is my thoughts. If they had strength 4 they would be better stat wise than the ace marine. GW would have none of that. Can not be better than the poster child.

@Erik The problem with 'strengths represent a range!" is that S3 represents about the human range, S4 represents everything from "angry humans" to "superhumans in armour that carries and constructs spaceship parts, lifts tonnes, hits like a truck, and survives rocket impacts". S5 should logically start ABOVE such a thing; we have options like "angry superhumans in armour that carries and constructs spaceship parts, lifts tonnes, hits like a truck, and survives rocket impacts" and "Angry large-ish green orks" and "Random human mutant ogres" and "souped-up Assassins". Then we get into T6, which has angry human mutant ogres, building-sized monsters, and... some guy with a mechanical arm - except when he's mad, and then he's S7 which is ridiculous strong. Beyond that it's completely arbitrary.

None of the 40k metrics are anything but arbitrary. A marine should be both stronger and tougher than Straken in physical combat. Why are orks s3? because s3 furious charge 2 attacks base was found to be the best balance. As opposed to s4 2 attacks base, or s4 1 attack base furious charge. It also shows that orks are geared to be offensive.

(this is a warning, this post contains large amounts of worthless ranting and complete statement of the BS I put up with from MEQ, Readers were warned)

I personally am SICK of all of GW's shenannigans relating to MEQ, I want a varied futuristic world where I have just as much of a chance of finding an ork army as I do anything else (having 2/3rds of our gaming group play MEQ REGULARLY is just plain irritating) I understand marines are a part of life but NO ONE CAN fething COMPETE WITH THEM WITHOUT PLAYING HORRABLY OP LISTS, I WANT fething BALENCE GW NOT THIS IMBA (imbalenced) "HURP DERP MARINES R DA BEST AND U SHULD PLAY ALL OF DEM FACTIONS" CRAP I mean come fething on, making other armies worse so the overpriced crappy ass MEQ are the only way to go to even have a chance in hell of doing anything. and another thing, APOC AND 40K ARE SEPERATE FOR REASONS! LEAVE THEM THAT fething WAY. Necrons were very popular with a few members of our club a while back (before the update) and they were some of the best players in our club even beating the cheesiest of the MEQ armies that could be brewed up, now? they(necrons) cant do fething gak AGAINST THEM(MEQ), our necron players just stopped showing up cause they knew the outcome and fun-ness level of the game before it even started. I am the same way when it comes to MEQ, I know for a god dammed FACT that I will lose no matter what cause MEQ are so fething powerful. WHEN YOU ARE A fething HORDE ARMY AND YOU ARE OUTNUMBERED BEFORE YOU EVEN GET TO START YOUR FIRST fething TURN SOMETHING IS GOD DAMMED MOTHER fething WRONG.
SO GET OFF YOUR LAZY ASS GW AND FIX YOUR fething gak BEFORE I TAKE MY MONEY SOMEWHERE ELSE

It sucks to be a scrub at this game. If you are a horde army, and outnumbered my meq, its operator error. If newcrons cant hurt current meq, its operator error. Go read yesthetruthhurts and 3++, up your game, and come back to us.

Chrisrawr, I understand what you're saying, but don't see why it's a problem. Furious charge (which is what I assume "angry" is) adding a whole +1 S seems a bit unrealistic, but that's a usr so i'm not really counting it for representing the different S's of the game.


Zman111, I understand, but you need decaff or something. It does suck there is an overabundance of marines, but I don't think that can be helped. I also don't see how meq armies are overpowered, i'm sure other armies are capable of just as much .


I think the problem with this game is alot of people think competitively. GW probably tries to make the codices balanced, but they said they don't care about competitions. Playing competitively with a game that isn't made for competitive play seems a bit pointless to me, but I understand people who complain about army balance because it makes the games always go the same way. Even though the game has become commercially driven doesn't mean that the basic premise of how you are supposed to play it has changed. Odd as it seems, I think GW still cares about their game as a means to play out a story, and that's how people should be doing it. Winning or losing doesn't matter so long as you had a fun experience, but the game sometimes needs the players to add that in themselves. Playing an army and seeing it lose every time would be discouraging, but nothing in the game is so bad that it can't beat any other codex.

yea I know, I just needed to vent badly,

Objectively untrue. Competitive GK and IG have been optimized beyond the point where they can be beaten by means that don't involve specifically tailoring your list to counter them - and some armies just don't have the options or points efficiency necessary to do so. DE and marines factions effortlessly breeze through battles against older codecies without extensive optimization and deep understanding of game rules. This is most notable when you see two younger players with matchups of about equal inner-codex optimization play against each other; An eldar vs BA match will inevitably lead to one conclusion, and it's not one that tells a happy story for the eldar.

I dont remember what the point was.

chrisrawr wrote:Objectively untrue. Competitive GK and IG have been optimized beyond the point where they can be beaten by means that don't involve specifically tailoring your list to counter them - and some armies just don't have the options or points efficiency necessary to do so. DE and marines factions effortlessly breeze through battles against older codecies without extensive optimization and deep understanding of game rules. This is most notable when you see two younger players with matchups of about equal inner-codex optimization play against each other; An eldar vs BA match will inevitably lead to one conclusion, and it's not one that tells a happy story for the eldar.

I dont remember what the point was.

I was wonderin that too

Eidolon wrote:It sucks to be a scrub at this game. If you are a horde army, and outnumbered my meq, its operator error. If newcrons cant hurt current meq, its operator error. Go read yesthetruthhurts and 3++, up your game, and come back to us.

Rude, completely missed the point of his post. Decent players against decent players with two decent lists from two different armies should be able to have a decent game without needing to heavily optimize on either players' side. Skill goes up, so does the ability to optimize your lists. Tournaments should be about optimized allcomers lists of all types from all different codecies that fit a players' playstyle, instead of being players who figured out the latest OP meta counter and managed to luck-out to the top.

Quite simply, why not remove Furious Charge, give them str4, and make choppas inflict -1 to armour saves? Of course increase the cost to reflect these improvements, say to 8pts. This reflects fluff well imho, though may not be balanced (your opinions?). By this, Nobz would be Str 5 and Warbosses Str6. Str 6 may seem to trespass pn MC territory, but they're over 3m tall, this really does reflect them to be pure murder they are in fluff.

I don't think the game can ever be balanced. Especially after keeping old codices and rechanging how the entire game works, aka 6th edition. Plus alot of the problems with newer codices might have been because they were made to fit with 6th edition. We'll just have to see, but I think armies are balanced enough if people just play to have fun.

Banzaimash wrote:Quite simply, why not remove Furious Charge, give them str4, and make choppas inflict -1 to armour saves? Of course increase the cost to reflect these improvements, say to 8pts. This reflects fluff well imho, though may not be balanced (your opinions?). By this, Nobz would be Str 5 and Warbosses Str6. Str 6 may seem to trespass pn MC territory, but they're over 3m tall, this really does reflect them to be pure murder they are in fluff.

Furious charge is so perfect for orks that i'd think it should be kept even if S is raised to 4. I don't think their base S really matters either way. No matter the change, it would change the points of the model. Also a -1 modifier is weird because the game doesn't use modifiers anymore.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2530073_99120105040_IGCatachanJungleFighters_873x627.jpg

This is also Strength 3....

Keep in mind what Toughness 4 means. Toughness 4 means Commissar Yarrick....having your arm torn off and killing your assailant and surviving long enough for a biological transplant. Toughness 4 means Iron Hand Straken, who was bitten by a land shark and had half of his body torn off and then replaced with cybernetics. Toughness 5....toughness 5 means like Ghazghkull Thraka you have your skull blown to bits and grey matter flying out all over the place, and then have it surgically reconstructed and basically be fine.

The whole point is that Ork Boyz are tough....preternaturally tough. They are also strong - but not a supernatural kind of strong. Imperial Guardsmen of spectacular strength can match or exceed an Ork Boy. As an Ork Boy matures, he grows bigger and stronger, strong enough to krump a Space Marine, such developed and enlarged Orks are called Nobs.

Ork Boys are not Strength 4 because they are the baseline Ork. They are what makes an Ork an Ork. Tougher and meaner than a humie. But they develop into Nobs, monsters that can contend with genetically modified and enhanced humans, Space Marines. And further down the line, if they survive, they can become Warbosses, devastating infantry units of incomparable strength and resilience beyond even the most powerful Space Marines.

erikwfg wrote:I don't think the game can ever be balanced. Especially after keeping old codices and rechanging how the entire game works, aka 6th edition. Plus alot of the problems with newer codices might have been because they were made to fit with 6th edition. We'll just have to see, but I think armies are balanced enough if people just play to have fun.

Banzaimash wrote:Quite simply, why not remove Furious Charge, give them str4, and make choppas inflict -1 to armour saves? Of course increase the cost to reflect these improvements, say to 8pts. This reflects fluff well imho, though may not be balanced (your opinions?). By this, Nobz would be Str 5 and Warbosses Str6. Str 6 may seem to trespass pn MC territory, but they're over 3m tall, this really does reflect them to be pure murder they are in fluff.

Furious charge is so perfect for orks that i'd think it should be kept even if S is raised to 4. I don't think their base S really matters either way. No matter the change, it would change the points of the model. Also a -1 modifier is weird because the game doesn't use modifiers anymore.

No thanks, basic Orks wounding Guardsmen on 2s and Marines on 3s on the charge is a pass. Thanks for playing, though!

And S10 Nobs with the Klaw? No thanks again.

Really? S5 on the charge?

erikwfg wrote:I don't think the game can ever be balanced. Especially after keeping old codices and rechanging how the entire game works, aka 6th edition. Plus alot of the problems with newer codices might have been because they were made to fit with 6th edition. We'll just have to see, but I think armies are balanced enough if people just play to have fun.

No matter which way you shake it. MEQ's will always tear apart most Xeno armies. 6th ed is only adding salt to the wounds, everyone knows it and MEQ players are laughing at how OP they just got. Is this my way of QQ'ing? In a way;I just want to have a CHANCE against MEQ players rather then taking my models off the table as fast as i put them on it.

Moreover, now that I read other comment regarding the OP's post. I believe that fluff wise, Str 4 makes sense for Orks. However, game wise it would be a little overpowered.

chrisrawr wrote:

Eidolon wrote:It sucks to be a scrub at this game. If you are a horde army, and outnumbered my meq, its operator error. If newcrons cant hurt current meq, its operator error. Go read yesthetruthhurts and 3++, up your game, and come back to us.

Rude, completely missed the point of his post. Decent players against decent players with two decent lists from two different armies should be able to have a decent game without needing to heavily optimize on either players' side. Skill goes up, so does the ability to optimize your lists. Tournaments should be about optimized allcomers lists of all types from all different codecies that fit a players' playstyle, instead of being players who figured out the latest OP meta counter and managed to luck-out to the top.

So what do you say about people like me and the friends I go around to tournaments with? We have routinely been on top of the semi-local gaming scene with a large variety of armies. My tournament records with mech eldar, tyranids, foot space wolves, draigowing, and coteaz are all on par with each other. Something like 21-3, 12-0, 10-0-2, 3-0, and 19-2 respectively since 5th edition came out. What about people like reecius, doing fantastic at a national level competition with fething footdar?

Heres a secret I have found about a players 'playstyle' since this gets brought up so much. A good player can basically master shooting, movement, and assault in 40k. Meaning they can do well with a shooting, assault, or mixed army. The playstyle is almost all about how they play the game mentally, and has little to do with the list.

I understand that my local gaming scene is not as good an example of competitive gaming as national level events, but at those too you see the same people coming out on top year after year, often with the same army or some pretty wild lists. I am pretty sure if it was just about finding the latest netlist and playing easy mode with it, you would see more people doing well.

Because they aren't?

And what rules are you proposing here?

TedNugent wrote:
This is also Strength 3....

Keep in mind what Toughness 4 means. Toughness 4 means Commissar Yarrick....having your arm torn off and killing your assailant and surviving long enough for a biological transplant. Toughness 4 means Iron Hand Straken, who was bitten by a land shark and had half of his body torn off and then replaced with cybernetics. Toughness 5....toughness 5 means like Ghazghkull Thraka you have your skull blown to bits and grey matter flying out all over the place, and then have it surgically reconstructed and basically be fine.

The whole point is that Ork Boyz are tough....preternaturally tough. They are also strong - but not a supernatural kind of strong. Imperial Guardsmen of spectacular strength can match or exceed an Ork Boy. As an Ork Boy matures, he grows bigger and stronger, strong enough to krump a Space Marine, such developed and enlarged Orks are called Nobs.

Ork Boys are not Strength 4 because they are the baseline Ork. They are what makes an Ork an Ork. Tougher and meaner than a humie. But they develop into Nobs, monsters that can contend with genetically modified and enhanced humans, Space Marines. And further down the line, if they survive, they can become Warbosses, devastating infantry units of incomparable strength and resilience beyond even the most powerful Space Marines.

Well said.

Eidolon wrote:
Heres a secret I have found about a players 'playstyle' since this gets brought up so much. A good player can basically master shooting, movement, and assault in 40k. Meaning they can do well with a shooting, assault, or mixed army. The playstyle is almost all about how they play the game mentally, and has little to do with the list.

I understand that my local gaming scene is not as good an example of competitive gaming as national level events, but at those too you see the same people coming out on top year after year, often with the same army or some pretty wild lists. I am pretty sure if it was just about finding the latest netlist and playing easy mode with it, you would see more people doing well.

Also well said. I also find that many players simply forget tactics, including simple stuff like finishing off injured units. A single model left alive is usually the strongest in the squad, and i've seen them mess up tons of games.

The players that make unique armies should be the ones that win, those are people who can adapt and have a larger breadth of skills. When everyone goes for mech spam or supreme firepower, it's not surprising some codices seem underpowered. Not all armies are meant to be played the same way.

Don't know if i'm making sense, but I hope so. Getting tired.

Vid wrote:
No matter which way you shake it. MEQ's will always tear apart most Xeno armies. 6th ed is only adding salt to the wounds, everyone knows it and MEQ players are laughing at how OP they just got. Is this my way of QQ'ing? In a way;I just want to have a CHANCE against MEQ players rather then taking my models off the table as fast as i put them on it.

Moreover, now that I read other comment regarding the OP's post. I believe that fluff wise, Str 4 makes sense for Orks. However, game wise it would be a little overpowered.

See above. I don't believe that MEQ destroy xenos always, nor do I believe that 6th makes the gap even bigger. I do not understand or approve of terminators getting a 2+ vs power weapons now, but that's only 1 thing. We'll have to see how 6th takes it. It's really odd to change the game that much but keep the same codices. I don't know if I'd be able to do it, but GW could have done it right. If not, I think that basically ruins the edition, but again, we'll see.

Crazyterran wrote:
No thanks, basic Orks wounding Guardsmen on 2s and Marines on 3s on the charge is a pass. Thanks for playing, though!

And S10 Nobs with the Klaw? No thanks again.

Really? S5 on the charge?

It does seem a bit much, but I was just saying how furious charge should be kept regardless of ork strength, it's just perfectly orky. Orks are probably fine the way they are. Although if GW decided to change them to S4 with the next codex I don't think people would find it unrealistic. I think as long as the points are changed it doesn't really matter. You'd get alot less orks, so I think a strength increase would actually make the boyz worse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Because they aren't?

And what rules are you proposing here?

Yeah, that too. I think OP is being overwhelmed by our discussions. Someone should make another topic for us to continue talking about the other stuff if we want to continue.