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Doesn't this just make GK's better?
They take Terminators as troops basic, meaning power weapons that countered the Terminators now make them tougher?

It doesn't affect my Klaws though

KrimsunBaron wrote:Doesn't this just make GK's better?
They take Terminators as troops basic, meaning power weapons that countered the Terminators now make them tougher?

It doesn't affect my Klaws though

Not really. GK can't get Storm Shields. And yes, Storm Shields make all the difference in the world when deciding an assault involving AP2 weaponry.

I think GK will still be a good army, just not top tier. I see them being more middle tier, especially when the new flood of 6th edition codexes hit.

KrimsunBaron wrote:Doesn't this just make GK's better?
They take Terminators as troops basic, meaning power weapons that countered the Terminators now make them tougher?

It doesn't affect my Klaws though

It does make them tought but most armies take Powerfists/klaws (for you orks) anyway so it only hurts the eldar and dark eldar really.

Besides everyone should remember the more dice you make high armor saves roll the more likely they are to fail.

Darklight wrote:

KrimsunBaron wrote:Doesn't this just make GK's better?
They take Terminators as troops basic, meaning power weapons that countered the Terminators now make them tougher?

It doesn't affect my Klaws though

Not really. GK can't get Storm Shields. And yes, Storm Shields make all the difference in the world when deciding an assault involving AP2 weaponry.

I think GK will still be a good army, just not top tier. I see them being more middle tier, especially when the new flood of 6th edition codexes hit.

Power weapons being AP3 lessens the importance of storm shields though, so yes it does make GK tougher. On the upside for me, it also makes Sanguinary Guard more viable.

Yes, as was discussed some time ago, the real effect will be to make tactical terminators and honour guards - both of whom are presently sub-optimal choices - worthwhile, though, since they'll still be slaughtered by plasma guns, I don't see the fashion for storm shields changing any time soon.

English Assassin wrote:Yes, as was discussed some time ago, the real effect will be to make tactical terminators and honour guards - both of whom are presently sub-optimal choices - worthwhile, though, since they'll still be slaughtered by plasma guns, I don't see the fashion for storm shields changing any time soon.

Agreed a 3++ is an excellent way to protect an investment

I don't like that power weapons are being scuppered by artificer/termie armour and all other 2+ variants, but very few armies are filled with those saves. Most armies have a majority 3+ save anyway so for the most part power swords will be doing their old job as well as before. So no big difference there, just elites are going to be tougher to crack, which is how it should be. Maybe it is good that things are getting tougher. Will have to wait and see.

Still don't like the change though. I was happy with 5th ed and I don't like change as it is.

Topic has already been done, seperate of the news and rumor. 9 pages of discussion, read it over and add anything new there instead of starting new discussions on it. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/453528.page

armies I know of with 2+
all SM, DA, SW, BA, BT, GK, and CSM
Orks
Tau

Armies that do not
Eldar
Dark Eldar
Daemons
Necrons
Guard
Sisters
Nids(i think)

so Essentially this affect few armies. What it does do is make some slow selling or high profit kits more feasible.
I.e. Tactical terminators (Finecast Meganobs and Broadsides).

Necrons can get a 2+ (Sempiternal Weave), Nids can get a 2+, and Dark Eldar have an HQ who comes with a 2+ (the master of blades guy).

I'm really hopign this means we'll get a plastic meganob kit for orks... $19.75 a pop is pretty rediculous.. i also hope they release a plastic wraithyguard model nto fuinecast... finecast is nice but its detail would kind of be wasted unless they were redesigning mega armor .. same for wraithguard

King Pariah wrote:Necrons can get a 2+ (Sempiternal Weave), Nids can get a 2+, and Dark Eldar have an HQ who comes with a 2+ (the master of blades guy).

Excuse me i stand corrected. Thank you

Joey wrote:

Darklight wrote:

Lobukia wrote:While GK may mourn their lack of punch, the ability for Paladins to soak up damage now is insane, especially when compared to everybody else in the game.

I still see this as GK +1, everybody else, just a change (though, those Black Reach terminators are suddenly looking much better to buyers on ebay).

Actually, this won't be the case at all. Wound allocation has changed. It is now closest to furthest, with wargear being irrelevant. Draigo Wing is no longer viable.

Correction.
Ultra cheesy draigo wing is no longer viable.
Not all GK players use cheese, and not everyone who uses paladins abused the rules. Sick of people saying this.

Draigo wing was never cheesy. The model count was simply too low, and vulnerability to AP2 weapons too high. Cheesy Grey Knights include lots of psyflemmen dreads, razorbacks and purifiers.

Kaldor wrote:I'm torn. On the one hand my GK Paladins and Terminators will lose some offensive power. On the other hand they gain some defensive power.

GK could lose a lot of power and still be over powered.

Grugknuckle wrote:

Kaldor wrote:I'm torn. On the one hand my GK Paladins and Terminators will lose some offensive power. On the other hand they gain some defensive power.

GK could lose a lot of power and still be over powered.

Depends. Terminators and Paladins were already pretty balanced. It's the psyfledreads, razorback spam and purifiers with 2 x psycannons that are broken. And power weapon changes aren't going to affect that at all.

Kaldor wrote:

Grugknuckle wrote:

Kaldor wrote:I'm torn. On the one hand my GK Paladins and Terminators will lose some offensive power. On the other hand they gain some defensive power.

GK could lose a lot of power and still be over powered.

Depends. Terminators and Paladins were already pretty balanced. It's the psyfledreads, razorback spam and purifiers with 2 x psycannons that are broken. And power weapon changes aren't going to affect that at all.

Yes it will. If the Purifier Spam army faces a Terminator heavy Space Marine list, or Death Wing, they will be at a severe disadvantage. If the Terminators manage to get into assault, it's done. Psycannons just won't be enough.

Darklight wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Grugknuckle wrote:

Kaldor wrote:I'm torn. On the one hand my GK Paladins and Terminators will lose some offensive power. On the other hand they gain some defensive power.

GK could lose a lot of power and still be over powered.

Depends. Terminators and Paladins were already pretty balanced. It's the psyfledreads, razorback spam and purifiers with 2 x psycannons that are broken. And power weapon changes aren't going to affect that at all.

Yes it will. If the Purifier Spam army faces a Terminator heavy Space Marine list, or Death Wing, they will be at a severe disadvantage. If the Terminators manage to get into assault, it's done. Psycannons just won't be enough.

Yeah, against deathwing it makes a difference. But not against anyone else.

Kaldor wrote:

Darklight wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Grugknuckle wrote:

Kaldor wrote:I'm torn. On the one hand my GK Paladins and Terminators will lose some offensive power. On the other hand they gain some defensive power.

GK could lose a lot of power and still be over powered.

Depends. Terminators and Paladins were already pretty balanced. It's the psyfledreads, razorback spam and purifiers with 2 x psycannons that are broken. And power weapon changes aren't going to affect that at all.

Yes it will. If the Purifier Spam army faces a Terminator heavy Space Marine list, or Death Wing, they will be at a severe disadvantage. If the Terminators manage to get into assault, it's done. Psycannons just won't be enough.

Yeah, against deathwing it makes a difference. But not against anyone else.

Actually, I think any marine army running multiple squads of Terminators, will have a good chance to destroy a Purifier Spam army in assault. You don't have to run pure Deathwing to do it. Orks will also be able to compete directly with
Grey Knights now in assault via Meganobs.

At the very least, it will be a lot more of a balanced match-up now, which is a good thing.

Broadsides and Crisis Suits are also looking better for the change too... while the 2 hamerheads I own are certainly sidelined for the Broadsides for quite awhile.

I wouldn't have minded if they instead just gave weapons save modifiers, as opposed to straight up "get it or don't."

Heavy chain axe reduces save by 1.
Power sword reduces save by 2.
Power Axe reduces save by 3.
Power Fist/Thunder Hammer/Power Klaws reduces reduces armour save by 4.

Fairly simple to figure out system that would make terminator armour relevant in close combat, while not completely nerfing various weapon types and armies.

Lobukia wrote:Broadsides and Crisis Suits are also looking better for the change too... while the 2 hamerheads I own are certainly sidelined for the Broadsides for quite awhile.

Why sideline the Hammerheads? They can now move 12" and shoot both the railgun and SMS. Not to mention glances wont keep them from shooting.

I personally am sticking with my two HH and one unit of three broadsides. Its going to take a lot to shut down those guns.

King Pariah wrote:Necrons can get a 2+ (Sempiternal Weave), Nids can get a 2+, and Dark Eldar have an HQ who comes with a 2+ (the master of blades guy).

Just wanted to add that Saint Celestine has a 2+ armor save. ^_^

But I think that's it for 2+ saves in the SoB dex.

Fafnir wrote:I wouldn't have minded if they instead just gave weapons save modifiers, as opposed to straight up "get it or don't."

Heavy chain axe reduces save by 1.
Power sword reduces save by 2.
Power Axe reduces save by 3.
Power Fist/Thunder Hammer/Power Klaws reduces reduces armour save by 4.

Fairly simple to figure out system that would make terminator armour relevant in close combat, while not completely nerfing various weapon types and armies.

Hey! Its 2nd edition! (more or less)

I dont have a problem with it, since it will make armored units fell more "armored" especially terminators.

Biggest change is now Artificer Armour on IC's

Lobukia wrote:

Fafnir wrote:I wouldn't have minded if they instead just gave weapons save modifiers, as opposed to straight up "get it or don't."

Heavy chain axe reduces save by 1.
Power sword reduces save by 2.
Power Axe reduces save by 3.
Power Fist/Thunder Hammer/Power Klaws reduces reduces armour save by 4.

Fairly simple to figure out system that would make terminator armour relevant in close combat, while not completely nerfing various weapon types and armies.

Hey! Its 2nd edition! (more or less)

Why change what isn't broken?

Power weapons being AP3 means 1 major thing for me. Suddenly MANz seem MUCH more viable. Hurray! I can finally spam feth MANz and not get kicked in the nuts for it

As an ork player, Ap3 power weapons have no effect on me what so ever. 30 boyz charge! Although Manz do look pretty sexy....

As for my Flesh Tearers, no change. Every unit has a powerfist.

My Chaos on the hand..not so much. Power weapon chosen, power weapon aspiring champs, deamon weapon lord, and my Sorcerers! Good thing I bought a box of Chaos termies!

Meh, as a Necron player it doesn't effect me that much.
Warscythes ignore all armor saves anyway (yes, they do. It explicitly says that in the codex), and if anything, the new rule makes lords tougher to kill, as they now get the 2+ sempiternal weave save against power weapons.

Destroyer Lords are suddenly looking a lot better ^^.
Sure, ShieldGuard aren't that great at killing termies now...but that's why there's ScytheGuard.

Kaldor wrote:

Lobukia wrote:While GK may mourn their lack of punch, the ability for Paladins to soak up damage now is insane, especially when compared to everybody else in the game.

I still see this as GK +1, everybody else, just a change

Yeah, especially since you can swap to those nice double strength AP2 hammers for free.

However, the only image we have explicitly mentions that it refers to force weapons that have no further rules. GK Nemesis force weapons all come with extra rules. So, does the chart apply? Do the NFW rules also apply? If the chart doesn't apply, what AP value will NFW use?

I mean, it'd be a bit rude simply using that chart for NFW. Especially because it states that halberds count as axes. Halberds giving +2I, +1S, and Ap2? Yes please!

Halberds are not axes all gk NFW fall under the rule "unusual force weapon" which states the ap and such. So you follow what it says in the dex, and look at that rule for the ap and such I cannot post the rules per the forum rules.

edited due to grammar error.