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Vendetta spam really isn't as good as people think it is. Yes all those tl las cannons are scary and its hard to kill fliers with almost nothing getting skyfire. However, vendettas spam can only shoot 3 targets because of the squadron rule and 5 out of 6 missions are objective based missions. What do they have to take objectives? Does grav chute insertion even work when fliers are zooming? If it doesn't the vendettas will have to switch to hover mode for guardsmen have to get out of their vehicle to take an objective and then be vulnerable.

How does this Vendetta spam list take the relic or win the 4-6 objective missions?

There also needs to be some ground component because you lose the game at the end of a turn where you have no models on the table. If that bastion and company command is all they have you can drop pod in a squad with meltas with drop pod assault blow up the bastion and then kill the company command and win the game.

Until GW starts handing out Flakk missles via FAQ, Bastion with a Quad gun, , along with fliers of your own or lots of infantry with heavy weapons seems like the best counters to Vendetta spam.

The Aegis defense line's quad gun is a toughness 7, 2 wound gun emplacement that vendettas can just shoot with their las cannons and kill it.

Allied Hydras will also just get shot and killed by Vendettas and are not good if the opponent has no fliers or skimmers.

GW is eventually hand out flakk missiles, but they will sit on their butts long enough for the bandwagon players to jump to ig before they start handing out flakk.

I have the sinking suspicion that flak will be free, but it will replace the krak.

pretre wrote:Keep in mind half of your army, not counting flyers has to start on the board. And if you have no models on te board at the end of a turn, you lose.

What page does it say that flyers dont count? You have 1000 pts of flyers in reserve that try to come on turn 2 and start with 1000 pts on the board. I may have missed the part about flyers not count to the "half your force" rule. But i read through the reserves section. There is also nothing under the "flyer section" stating that. All it says is that Flyers start counted as reserves.

Flyers have to start off the board. Anything that has to start off the board doesn't count.

Ok, im just asking where it says this. As I have read through and not seen it. Can you please reference me a page #? I am not saying you are wrong.

Actually moving some items around on a board has made me realize that the limited maneuverability of fliers is a bigger hindrance than I originally thought. Rhino's with the new 18 inch move can reach the backfield incredibly fast in a dawn of war setup which severely limits firing opportunities. I still wouldn't want to face Vendetta Spam during a kill point mission, but most armies will be able to outmaneuver flyers well enough in objective games.

Vendettas are still a problem with their incredible firepower, transport and nigh-unhitability, but I would say my original post overstated the danger of building entire lists with them. I'm quite glad to be wrong and look forward to not building every list around maximum AA capability.

That is why I asked to see his list. He threw an idea out there and I would like to see how he plans on executing it.

#1. Flyers must start in reserve.
#2. Only half of your army can start in reserve.

So in a 1500 point game that is 750 points max is 5 Vendettas, In 2000 point games that is 7 vendettas (and that is not even counting if you want to have some troops with them).

In the mean time the other half of the army (which are going to be scoring units and anything that helps with reserve rolls) is going to be taking a pounding from your opponents full army.


Also what are the plans when you face all of the horde armies that we will see now that fearless models no longer take no retreat wounds?

90° turns for flyers is nto that big an issue.

Turn 2: Come in at range from your target and fire at will.
Turn 3: Assuming the flyer isnt dead and the target isnt out of firing trajectory (moved intelligently out of reach)then just move up 18" and keep firing.
Turn 4: now youre likely facing the wide open space of a table edge, you can either loose a turn of shooting and come back for another go in turn 5, OR you can just change heading and find a new target to shoot at.
Turn 5: Return with a vengeance and make yet another shot at the target, or if you decided youd rather pick a new target then loose a round of shooting then just keep turning and picking targets on the go, make sure youre aware of wether there will be a turn 6 or not before you leave the table at this point.
Turn 6: More of the same, and whatever you do, dont move off the table.

Furthermore:
Flyers with the hover rule (such as Vendettas and Valkyries) can hover, ensurign that they NEVER loose a round of shooting if youre willing to slow down and take some hits, BTW most IG players will want to slow down at some point to deploy their scoring units on the table, lest they dont score at all.

Btw, flyrts are my most favorite thing in warhammer and the ork flyers make my day anyday, the litle grot rear-gun on blitza bommers is just about my most favorite thing in the game!

pretre wrote:Keep in mind half of your army, not counting flyers has to start on the board. And if you have no models on te board at the end of a turn, you lose.

This.

So the IG player puts one unit on the table and everything else in birds. His opponent then has 1 or 2 turns of free shooting at that unit. If it dies, game over.

Edit: he cant do that. For each unit in a bird he needs a unit on the board. Even if he only brought conscripts it would be expensive and probably not possible

Blackmoor wrote:#1. Flyers must start in reserve.
#2. Only half of your army can start in reserve.

So in a 1500 point game that is 750 points max is 5 Vendettas

That's funny. He can reserve half of his units and the flyers don't count to that half and are considered extra. For what bizarre reason are you counting points costs? They've nothing to do with this subject. There's been multiple YMDC threads about this you should check if you don't understand the rule.

If the IG has 7 units and 3 squadrons of Vendettas, he can reserve all the Vendettas and 4 other units. In other words, he has to deploy 3 foot units (and their dedicated transports if they have any, unless the dedicated transports have to start in reserve, in which case they don't count towards the cap).

About the army itself, it has huge weaknesses because unlike the Necrons, all of the flyers are in 3 squadrons. Engaging only three targets on the alpha strike and ever after is a big weakness. Additionally, not only is the Vendetta model way too big and takes an insane amount of space, squadroning them makes the problem even worse. An army with 9 Vendettas is unwieldy and will have trouble finding space where to move if the enemy has even a half decent amount of models in his army.

Razgriz22 wrote:Ok, im just asking where it says this. As I have read through and not seen it. Can you please reference me a page #? I am not saying you are wrong.

Page 124 under "Preparing reserves" second sentence. Units that have to start in reserves don't count against the limit.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Razgriz22 wrote:Ok, im just asking where it says this. As I have read through and not seen it. Can you please reference me a page #? I am not saying you are wrong.

Page 124 under "Preparing reserves" second sentence. Units that have to start in reserves don't count against the limit.

Thank you very much! I somehow missed that. So yea 9 vendettas sound scary but it seems this all has made it more of an improbability. If someone does it then good for us as we will attempt to table him in turn 1 with his 1 unit on the board.

Im sure there will be lists that have more then 3 but less then 9 vendettas that will be difficult t deal with. But it seems trying to out maneuver them and use their only 90 deg. pivot to our advantage. Get behind them

Razgriz22 wrote:

Stormrider wrote:

Razgriz22 wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Razgriz22 wrote:I just refuse to build a list that is set up to try to be able to beat that one guy who thinks it will be funny to run 9 vendettas. I'd rather lose to him and have a competitive list against everyone else then tailor my list to expect a guy to do that.

Why not just tailor your list to that one guy when you expect to play him? And use your regular list against everyone else?

I just meant in a tournament style set up when you dont know who your playing. Also pre tailoring lists is slightly mean. But so is 9 vendettas

Anyone running 9 Vendettas at a tourney is more than likely going to lose. That's over half a 2k list tied up in flyers that are not on the board every turn. Everythng else in the army will more than likely be minimal in its upgrades and the strategy of that player will be to utterly depend on the 2 rounds of TL LC shooting. Better make em count!

MLs' will have Flakk Missiles soon. Spamming AC's and (krak) ML's will suffice.

Not eldar Missile launchers... they are categorized differently.

Hence why I didn't mention EML's.

Stormrider wrote:

Razgriz22 wrote:

Stormrider wrote:

Razgriz22 wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Razgriz22 wrote:I just refuse to build a list that is set up to try to be able to beat that one guy who thinks it will be funny to run 9 vendettas. I'd rather lose to him and have a competitive list against everyone else then tailor my list to expect a guy to do that.

Why not just tailor your list to that one guy when you expect to play him? And use your regular list against everyone else?

I just meant in a tournament style set up when you dont know who your playing. Also pre tailoring lists is slightly mean. But so is 9 vendettas

Anyone running 9 Vendettas at a tourney is more than likely going to lose. That's over half a 2k list tied up in flyers that are not on the board every turn. Everythng else in the army will more than likely be minimal in its upgrades and the strategy of that player will be to utterly depend on the 2 rounds of TL LC shooting. Better make em count!

MLs' will have Flakk Missiles soon. Spamming AC's and (krak) ML's will suffice.

Not eldar Missile launchers... they are categorized differently.

Hence why I didn't mention EML's.

No love for the pointy ears

No love for anyone until GW decides to tell us WHO can get them.

Tsuruki wrote:
Turn 2: Come in at range from your target and fire at will.
Turn 3: Assuming the flyer isnt dead and the target isnt out of firing trajectory (moved intelligently out of reach)then just move up 18" and keep firing.

If given 2 or 3 turns to move my entire army, knowing yours consists entirely of Vendettas, I can assure you that you will have nothing to fire at in turn 3.

Game last night. One person tried something like this. He had very little on the board first turn. 2 units I was running a very shooty greyknight army. (Cortez with Divination with 3 Sev/plas and 2 space monkeys in Chimera was awesome re-rolling to hit) I wiped him first turn and won.

I don't see Vendetta spam being all that good outside of 2k+ points where you can have 6 single vendettas with double FOC Squadrons suck for many reasons.

Assuming double FOC at 2k which it seems most tournament will not allow. Nova decided to not allow.
hq
CCS 3 melta gun, astropath chimera 165 (warlord)
CCS 3 melta gun chimera 135
troop
Veterans 3 melta gun chimera 155
Veterans 3 melta gun chimera 155
Veterans 3 melta gun chimera 155
Platoon
PCS 4 melta gun chimera 125
IS autocannon chimera 115
IS autocannon chimera 115

fast
vendetta 130
vendetta 130
vendetta 130
vendetta 130
vendetta 130
vendetta 130

fortification
aegis defense line with quad gun 100

2000 points.

I don't put much stock in loading guys in vendettas because if they do crash your guys will die from strength 10 ap2 wounds and you have to enter hover mode to drop guys off since grav chute doesn't work anymore according to the rules that flat out is during the shooting phase. Hence chimeras for all my troops.

Probably is better to take 4 vet squads and then some type of ally that has combat capability.

Kirika wrote:I don't see Vendetta spam being all that good outside of 2k+ points where you can have 6 single vendettas with double FOC Squadrons suck for many reasons.

Assuming double FOC at 2k which it seems most tournament will not allow. Nova decided to not allow.
hq
CCS 3 melta gun, astropath chimera 165 (warlord)
CCS 3 melta gun chimera 135
troop
Veterans 3 melta gun chimera 155
Veterans 3 melta gun chimera 155
Veterans 3 melta gun chimera 155
Platoon
PCS 4 melta gun chimera 125
IS autocannon chimera 115
IS autocannon chimera 115

fast
vendetta 130
vendetta 130
vendetta 130
vendetta 130
vendetta 130
vendetta 130

fortification
aegis defense line with quad gun 100

2000 points.

I don't put much stock in loading guys in vendettas because if they do crash your guys will die from strength 10 ap2 wounds and you have to enter hover mode to drop guys off since grav chute doesn't work anymore according to the rules that flat out is during the shooting phase. Hence chimeras for all my troops.

Probably is better to take 4 vet squads and then some type of ally that has combat capability.

This.

At 2,000pts, 6 single Vendettas, plus a mech-vet line, then maybe some allies to counter-punch anything that hit's the Chimera convoy. Troops in Vendettas will be useful for denial lists, but you're going to be far better off putting your veterans on the table in Chimeras and going for AV target saturation, while laying on the hurt. Then Turn 2 'Ride of the Valkyries' starts playing in the distance as likely 5 out of 6 Vendettas scream onto the board and start laying waste to vehicles and elite infantry. Turn 2 they zoom on the minimum 18" from as far away from their chosen target as possible, fire, pivot and juggle targets turn 3, then turn 4 simply start hovering to continue focusing the firepower, as it'll be unlikely there will be very many AT threats left after 2 fairly unanswered turns of 15-18 TL LCs having free reign.

Blackmoor wrote:
Also what are the plans when you face all of the horde armies that we will see now that fearless models no longer take no retreat wounds?

Vendettas aren't totally without answers to hordes of infantry. If the IG player has already dedicated himself to 9 birds, he might as well give them Heavy Bolter Sponsons for 10 points a pop, and equip one of the Vendettas in the squadron with Hellfury missiles. The Squadron still has 7 tl las cannons, but it also has some cover ignoring large blasts and heavy bolter fire in case the opponent doesn't have many good las cannon targets.

New 1000 Sons Technique. Give aspiring sorcerer warptime then put them in a quad gun emplacent. Twin linked gun with rerolls on the wounds

XZealot wrote:New 1000 Sons Technique. Give aspiring sorcerer warptime then put them in a quad gun emplacent. Twin linked gun with rerolls on the wounds

Except vendetta's don't have wounds.

alarmingrick wrote:No love for anyone until GW decides to tell us WHO can get them.

There is a second round of FAQs coming out soon, I expect flak missiles to make an appearance then.