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robzidious wrote:regardless of init step, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing, meaning the rest of the unit couldn't strike at the victor on their init step if the challengee was slain makes it pretty clear that those wounds from the challenge shouldn't carry over.

That isn't what it says though. What you've just stated says that people not in the challenge can't strike people in the challenge. That's all it says.

You are adding things to it that are not stated. Try forgetting what you think it means, and read it again. Nothing in what you said "regardless of init step, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing, meaning the rest of the unit couldn't strike at the victor on their init step if the challengee was slain" says anything about wounds caused by either party in the challenge.

Also, the fact that the wounds cannot be "Look Out, Sir"ed should be an indication of their line of thought that wounds do not carry over.

Also, the fact that they are considered to only be in base to base with each other.

And the fact that you can't strike blows into the combat if you are not a character participating.

You could, however, make a better argument for any unsaved blows counting towards combat resolution and the leadership check. Due to

"Unsaved wounds caused in a challenge count towards the assault result, alongside any unsaved wounds caused by the rest of the characters unit."

However, for the argument for them to carry over in their entirely, you have:

"It doesn't say you can't in the challenge rules" and "another section entirely, before challenges are even brought up, says you have to spread the wounds around in their entirety!"w

DarknessEternal wrote:

robzidious wrote:regardless of init step, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing, meaning the rest of the unit couldn't strike at the victor on their init step if the challengee was slain makes it pretty clear that those wounds from the challenge shouldn't carry over.

That isn't what it says though. What you've just stated says that people not in the challenge can't strike people in the challenge. That's all it says.

You are adding things to it that are not stated. Try forgetting what you think it means, and read it again. Nothing in what you said "regardless of init step, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing, meaning the rest of the unit couldn't strike at the victor on their init step if the challengee was slain" says anything about wounds caused by either party in the challenge.

Obviously trying to have a civil conversation about rules and their meanings with you is out of the question. You're one of those guys.

Please keep it to the debate and don't get personal. That is against our rules. Thanks ~ Manchu

My point being, as long as the challenge was ongoing, (which is it through the duration of an assault phase even after one of the combatants is slain) no other attackers may strike at either of the characters in the challenge regardless of init step. So, why, in turn, should the characters blows carry over to the unit?

Let's say Abbadon smokes the sgt at his init step and 3 wounds carry over to a squad of 10 marines. That leaves 7 still alive. Well, according to RAW those 7 wouldn't be able to strike at Abbadon regardless of being alive or dead at their init of 4 because the challenge is still considered ongoing until that particular assault phase is over. So, how on earth could his blows carry over if they couldn't strike at him on their init step? Makes no sense.

robzidious wrote:
Let's say Abbadon smokes the sgt at his init step and 3 wounds carry over to a squad of 10 marines. That leaves 7 still alive. Well, according to RAW those 7 wouldn't be able to strike at Abbadon regardless of being alive or dead at their init of 4 because the challenge is still considered ongoing until that particular assault phase is over. So, how on earth could his blows carry over if they couldn't strike at him on their init step? Makes no sense.

Because that's what the rules say. They don't get to swing at him. The rules actually say that.

Find the rule that says Abaddon can't cause wounds to anyone else. There isn't one. There's only a rule that says no one can swing at him except the Sergeant who accepted his challenge.

DarknessEternal wrote:

robzidious wrote:
Let's say Abbadon smokes the sgt at his init step and 3 wounds carry over to a squad of 10 marines. That leaves 7 still alive. Well, according to RAW those 7 wouldn't be able to strike at Abbadon regardless of being alive or dead at their init of 4 because the challenge is still considered ongoing until that particular assault phase is over. So, how on earth could his blows carry over if they couldn't strike at him on their init step? Makes no sense.

Because that's what the rules say. They don't get to swing at him. The rules actually say that.

Find the rule that says Abaddon can't cause wounds to anyone else. There isn't one. There's only a rule that says no one can swing at him except the Sergeant who accepted his challenge.

Well, sir, I respectfully disagree with you. And until they FAQ it or address it, my gaming group will not be using carry over.

And in my previous post I said RAW I meant RAW as you see it.

DarknessEternal wrote:

robzidious wrote:
Let's say Abbadon smokes the sgt at his init step and 3 wounds carry over to a squad of 10 marines. That leaves 7 still alive. Well, according to RAW those 7 wouldn't be able to strike at Abbadon regardless of being alive or dead at their init of 4 because the challenge is still considered ongoing until that particular assault phase is over. So, how on earth could his blows carry over if they couldn't strike at him on their init step? Makes no sense.

Because that's what the rules say. They don't get to swing at him. The rules actually say that.

Find the rule that says Abaddon can't cause wounds to anyone else. There isn't one. There's only a rule that says no one can swing at him except the Sergeant who accepted his challenge.

There's no rules saying excess wounds carry over within the rules of Challenges.

There's no wounds, within Challenges, giving Abaddon permission to cause wounds to anyone but the person he is facing in the challenge.

Crazyterran wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

robzidious wrote:
Let's say Abbadon smokes the sgt at his init step and 3 wounds carry over to a squad of 10 marines. That leaves 7 still alive. Well, according to RAW those 7 wouldn't be able to strike at Abbadon regardless of being alive or dead at their init of 4 because the challenge is still considered ongoing until that particular assault phase is over. So, how on earth could his blows carry over if they couldn't strike at him on their init step? Makes no sense.

Because that's what the rules say. They don't get to swing at him. The rules actually say that.

Find the rule that says Abaddon can't cause wounds to anyone else. There isn't one. There's only a rule that says no one can swing at him except the Sergeant who accepted his challenge.

There's no rules saying excess wounds carry over within the rules of Challenges.

There's no wounds, within Challenges, giving Abaddon permission to cause wounds to anyone but the person he is facing in the challenge.

His argument is that you go to normal wound allocation for wounds dealt outside of the character in the challenge because they are still engaged being 2" away from another engaged model.

nvm... answered myself...

Crazyterran wrote:[
There's no rules saying excess wounds carry over within the rules of Challenges.

There's no wounds, within Challenges, giving Abaddon permission to cause wounds to anyone but the person he is facing in the challenge.

But the challenge is still part of the larger combat. Nothing stated has changed that. Nothing says it becomes its own, separate, combat.

Ignore the challenge for now. The rules state that if you are in a CC, wounds you inflict are allocated to the closest models first (in base) and once dead, to the next closest ones.

Those are the default rules that apply to all Close Combats. The Challenge is a close combat, so those are still the default rules.

Challenges also have their own, specific rules, that take precedence. You can't use LOS, no other models may attack the Challenger/gee, no one else is considered in base contact, etc. But if not specifically stated, all the default rules should still apply. The default rules say once the in-base model is dead, allocate to those nearest. What about the Challenge rules changes that??

nm...

EDIT: ninja'ed

Unless specifically stated you cannot do it. This is a game of permissable rules, if the rulebook or codex doesn't say you can do something you cannot do it.

CrashCanuck wrote:Unless specifically stated you cannot do it. This is a game of permissable rules, if the rulebook or codex doesn't say you can do something you cannot do it.

Right. And the rules describe wound allocation.
The only limitation a challenge puts out there is who can wound the characters involved.

Therefore leftover wounds are allocated.

So here it is, then:

The basic assault rules give the character permission to allocate his wounds all over the enemy unit, starting with the closest model, and be allocated wounds in return.

The challenge rules only remove the second half of the rule: the character cannot be allocated wounds in return (except, as per challenges, the enemy character).

The challenge rules do NOT revoke the aforementioned permission a character has to damage the rest of the unit.

Ugh, the rules lawyers are going to be EXTREMELY annoying for the next few months aren't they?

maaksel wrote:Ugh, the rules lawyers are going to be EXTREMELY annoying for the next few months aren't they?

Care to say why you felt the need to post that offensive remark?
Or what you feel is "lawyering"?

maaksel wrote:Ugh, the rules lawyers are going to be EXTREMELY annoying for the next few months aren't they?

I guess nobody's stopping you from playing a version of the game where the rules are sort "whatever feels right" or "we'll figure it out as we go along" where the rules are whatever the loudest dude in the room says they are.

Some people would rather know what the rules are in advance.

Honestly, this makes sense to me - if I butcher your sergeant and still have some fight left in me, I'm not going to sit around twiddling my thumbs! I'm going to charge into the guys behind him and tear them apart. Furthermore, of course the rest of the unit still can't hit me back until the next phase - they're still shaken from watching me rip their leader to shreds!

Seriously, though, without this overflow rule, IG platoons could tarpit a Bloodthirster for half the game for a fraction of his points cost, and there's nothing that the Daemon player can do about it. That's just silly, from both a fluff and a mechanical standpoint. It's just not good gameplay.

It makes sense. wounds caused by a challenger and chalengee should overflow because of the wound allocation rules. Further, unless they kill their direct challenge opponent no wounds will be overflowing because of the way wound allocation rules work. They have to start with the models in base to base contact.

One interesting sub point though is say a warbos and a pack of gretchen attack say khorn bezerkers. The challenge gets issued and the warbos and sergeant face off. Of course the warbos tears him a new one and the wounds roll over to the rest of the squad. Fair enough that is what has been largely discussed at this point. The question is, what about the overflow wounds caused to the gretchen? Would they overflow onto the warbos? Would the immunity from blows caused by challengers prevent those overflow wounds from affecting the challenger from receiving them, causing those overflow wounds to disappear?

No. The challenge is in effect until the end of the phase, and the challenge rules say no one else can allocate wounds to the challenger/gee

I understand as RAW the wounds overflow and i have no problem with it. But the second "Forging a Narrative" box says about players doing the challenges after everyone else. So this makes me think that it was intended to be the characters can only wound each other.

But atm the rules don't mention about not overflowing so until this is addressed in an faq, the wounds do overlow imho.

coredump wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:[
There's no rules saying excess wounds carry over within the rules of Challenges.

There's no wounds, within Challenges, giving Abaddon permission to cause wounds to anyone but the person he is facing in the challenge.

But the challenge is still part of the larger combat. Nothing stated has changed that. Nothing says it becomes its own, separate, combat.

Ignore the challenge for now. The rules state that if you are in a CC, wounds you inflict are allocated to the closest models first (in base) and once dead, to the next closest ones.

Those are the default rules that apply to all Close Combats. The Challenge is a close combat, so those are still the default rules.

Challenges also have their own, specific rules, that take precedence. You can't use LOS, no other models may attack the Challenger/gee, no one else is considered in base contact, etc. But if not specifically stated, all the default rules should still apply. The default rules say once the in-base model is dead, allocate to those nearest. What about the Challenge rules changes that??

I suppose. I don't see a TO or whatever taking that view, but I suppose, for now, that's how it is.

I can see this being FAQ'd to disallow it, however, but for now...

I have to wonder if this falls under the things they forgot, or figured nobody would use this kind of loophole. They should know better in either case.

I imagine the RAI is for it to be a one on one, and wounds allocated only go to each other, even overflow. But I'll guess we'll see in a month or so. (or the INAT one.)

pizzaguardian wrote:I understand as RAW the wounds overflow and i have no problem with it. But the second "Forging a Narrative" box says about players doing the challenges after everyone else. So this makes me think that it was intended to be the characters can only wound each other.

But atm the rules don't mention about not overflowing so until this is addressed in an faq, the wounds do overlow imho.

No...RAW indicates no such thing as wounds allocating against the unit after a challenge. Wounds in a challenge go into the wound pool and just like a shooting attack, if they overflow (in case of a challenge) they are lost. Wait til GW FAQs it and you'll see.

robzidious wrote:

pizzaguardian wrote:I understand as RAW the wounds overflow and i have no problem with it. But the second "Forging a Narrative" box says about players doing the challenges after everyone else. So this makes me think that it was intended to be the characters can only wound each other.

But atm the rules don't mention about not overflowing so until this is addressed in an faq, the wounds do overlow imho.

No...RAW indicates no such thing as wounds allocating against the unit after a challenge. Wounds in a challenge go into the wound pool and just like a shooting attack, if they overflow (in case of a challenge) they are lost. Wait til GW FAQs it and you'll see.

Where does it say this?

Normal wound allocation applies, which continues with the closest target after any in base contact are dead. (pg. 25)

Shandara wrote:

robzidious wrote:

pizzaguardian wrote:I understand as RAW the wounds overflow and i have no problem with it. But the second "Forging a Narrative" box says about players doing the challenges after everyone else. So this makes me think that it was intended to be the characters can only wound each other.

But atm the rules don't mention about not overflowing so until this is addressed in an faq, the wounds do overlow imho.

No...RAW indicates no such thing as wounds allocating against the unit after a challenge. Wounds in a challenge go into the wound pool and just like a shooting attack, if they overflow (in case of a challenge) they are lost. Wait til GW FAQs it and you'll see.

Where does it say this?

Normal wound allocation applies, which continues with the closest target after any in base contact are dead.

I have a feeling this will be argued either way for the rest of eternity. (or until GW FAQs it.)

Shandara wrote:

robzidious wrote:

pizzaguardian wrote:I understand as RAW the wounds overflow and i have no problem with it. But the second "Forging a Narrative" box says about players doing the challenges after everyone else. So this makes me think that it was intended to be the characters can only wound each other.

But atm the rules don't mention about not overflowing so until this is addressed in an faq, the wounds do overlow imho.

No...RAW indicates no such thing as wounds allocating against the unit after a challenge. Wounds in a challenge go into the wound pool and just like a shooting attack, if they overflow (in case of a challenge) they are lost. Wait til GW FAQs it and you'll see.

Where does it say this?

Normal wound allocation applies, which continues with the closest target after any in base contact are dead. (pg. 25)

Show me in the rules where it says normal wound allocation applies. You guys keep bringing this argument up saying normal wound allocation applies when in the rules it says no such thing. Many have also brought up fantasy in the equation, but as was explained to me, the wounds don't carry over even in fantasy they simply apply to combat resolution. You all that think the wounds overflow are reaching and when they FAQ it (which they will) you'll see that the wounds don't overflow. I brought this up to every person in my FLGS tonight because it was 40k night and not a single person agreed that the wounds overflow. You guys play it with your groups as you want, but until they FAQ it, in my group wounds from a challenge don't overflow.

Having reread the challenge section, I can say I firmly believe that GW did not intend for overflow wounds to be allowed from a challenge and likely thought "only the challenger and challengee can strike blows against one another" was enough to convey this.

My reasons are simple, almost every other rule mentioned in the challenge deals with specifically separating the two characters as a contained sub-combat from the whole. You cannot strike blows against someone within a challenge, including on the same turn in which one of the members is killed and you cannot "Look out, sir!" any wounds. Furthermore, GW specifically states that unsaved wounds issued as part of the challenge are reflected in combat resolution. Why would they feel this necessary to include if they thought their goal of separating the combatants wasn't otherwise clear? I'll likely discuss it with my gaming group and play it as wounds don't overflow unless something more definitive comes out of GW.

Before I post the response to this, I should clarify that I personally feel that the intent is that wounds should not carry over for allocation; however, my interpretation of intent and the written rules are two completely different matters.

As such, I will suggest in my games that wounds cannot overflow, but if the opponent disagrees I will happily go along with this. I hope that this gets addressed in the first FAQ for the rulebook, regardless of the result.

robzidious wrote:

Shandara wrote:

robzidious wrote:

pizzaguardian wrote:I understand as RAW the wounds overflow and i have no problem with it. But the second "Forging a Narrative" box says about players doing the challenges after everyone else. So this makes me think that it was intended to be the characters can only wound each other.

But atm the rules don't mention about not overflowing so until this is addressed in an faq, the wounds do overlow imho.

No...RAW indicates no such thing as wounds allocating against the unit after a challenge. Wounds in a challenge go into the wound pool and just like a shooting attack, if they overflow (in case of a challenge) they are lost. Wait til GW FAQs it and you'll see.

Where does it say this?

Normal wound allocation applies, which continues with the closest target after any in base contact are dead. (pg. 25)

Show me in the rules where it says normal wound allocation applies. You guys keep bringing this argument up saying normal wound allocation applies when in the rules it says no such thing. Many have also brought up fantasy in the equation, but as was explained to me, the wounds don't carry over even in fantasy they simply apply to combat resolution. You all that think the wounds overflow are reaching and when they FAQ it (which they will) you'll see that the wounds don't overflow. I brought this up to every person in my FLGS tonight because it was 40k night and not a single person agreed that the wounds overflow. You guys play it with your groups as you want, but until they FAQ it, in my group wounds from a challenge don't overflow.

Page 25, upper-right paragraph, explains wound allocation in combat. Nowhere in the Challenge rules does it state that this does not apply, nor does it give alternative methods for allocation. As such, if you feel that they should not apply, the onus would be on you to provide evidence to that effect.

The main problem with saying "show me where it says normal allocation applies" is that the same argument can be used for other mechanics. Show me in the rules where it says the normal To Hit rules apply. Or the normal To Wound rules. Or the normal Weapon rules. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, we have to assume that the standard rules apply - and the only changes to normal combat rules inside a challenge are:

- Models outside of the challenge may not allocate wounds to models inside the challenge.
- "Look Out Sir" may not be used to reallocate these wounds.
- The two challengers are considered to be in base-to-base contact only with each other.
- If the rest of a unit is unable to strike, it provides a certain number of re-rolls.

There are a few extra rules covering the challenge process and the option to refuse, but once the challenge has started, these are (as far as I can see) the only exceptions to the normal rules - and none of these prevent characters in the challenge allocating to other models after killing their immediate foe.

For those with access to the fantasy rulebook, is the overkill system spelled out in those rules? Or is it implicitly defined, as asserted in this thread about 40K?

I don't really have a preference either way... In my circle this could either help or hinder me.

That said, I think (on my subjective interpretation) from a RAW perspective, the rules indicate that there is spillover.

However, from a RAI perspective, I could see it going either way. On the one hand, I can see Imotekh and Halbrecht meeting in the field, fighting a noble battle to conclusion with no spillover. On the other hand, Imotekh can stand in front of a hive tyrant and issue a challenge all he wants. And the tyrant will have to kill Immy first, since he's in the way. But the tyrant won't pause, he'll just keep tearing until the Great Devourer has all the biomass.

In conclusion, I could see GW ruling either way.