Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

jcress410 wrote:This really seems like a pretty glaring oversight. Doesn't the first game or two of playtesting expose glitches like these?

Why do we have to wait for a faq before the rules are complete?

Lack of comprehensive play testing from people actually trying to bend or break every single rule they can(which is a good thing in play testing).

Playing some games normally and making sure it works at the basic level is also good but with a game like this they need more play testers who will abuse every single thing they can(they should hire allot of people from this site).

DarknessEternal wrote:

jcress410 wrote:This really seems like a pretty glaring oversight. Doesn't the first game or two of playtesting expose glitches like these?

Why do we have to wait for a faq before the rules are complete?

There's no glitch, everything in his question is defined in the ruleset. (but ignore my first post, I was wrong about the Assault Vehicle non-existence thing)

The 'glitch' is that if my assault vehicle is destroyed in my turn, my troops can assault in my assault phase... but if it is destroyed it in yours, they can't.

So, my turn, the vehicle is destroyed and the troops immediately assault. VS Your turn, the vehicle is destroyed, then my turn rolls around and the unit is just standing around contemplating how they can turn the wreckage into a lovely sculpture.

Which doesn't make any sense.

insaniak wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

jcress410 wrote:This really seems like a pretty glaring oversight. Doesn't the first game or two of playtesting expose glitches like these?

Why do we have to wait for a faq before the rules are complete?

There's no glitch, everything in his question is defined in the ruleset. (but ignore my first post, I was wrong about the Assault Vehicle non-existence thing)

The 'glitch' is that if my assault vehicle is destroyed in my turn, my troops can assault in my assault phase... but if it is destroyed it in yours, they can't.

So, my turn, the vehicle is destroyed and the troops immediately assault. VS Your turn, the vehicle is destroyed, then my turn rolls around and the unit is just standing around contemplating how they can turn the wreckage into a lovely sculpture.

Which doesn't make any sense.

Exactly. Add to this if the vehicle was obliterated and there was a -ass explosion they don't care and assault. But if you just wreck it and no one is harmed they suddenly need one turn to talk about how lucky they were.

insaniak wrote:
The 'glitch' is that if my assault vehicle is destroyed in my turn, my troops can assault in my assault phase... but if it is destroyed it in yours, they can't.

So, my turn, the vehicle is destroyed and the troops immediately assault. VS Your turn, the vehicle is destroyed, then my turn rolls around and the unit is just standing around contemplating how they can turn the wreckage into a lovely sculpture.

Which doesn't make any sense.

Yes, those are the rules. The book clearly states them.

Whether or not it makes sense is irrelevant. No Errata/FAQ/word of god is necessary.

I don't like that Shuriken Catapults are clearly terrible in this edition, but to call that a "glitch that requires a FAQ" would be incorrect.

DarknessEternal wrote:Whether or not it makes sense is irrelevant. No Errata/FAQ/word of god is necessary.

Necessary? No, clearly not. But it would still be nice to see it addressed.

Not liking a rule is one thing. The rule being nonsensical is completely another.

I think

"your transport got blown up on my turn, now you can't assault on your turn"

can't be the intent. That's why I called it a glitch. It seems to be some all about "their subsequent assault phase.." or whatever.

insaniak wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Whether or not it makes sense is irrelevant. No Errata/FAQ/word of god is necessary.

Necessary? No, clearly not. But it would still be nice to see it addressed.

Not liking a rule is one thing. The rule being nonsensical is completely another.

One person's nonsense is another's perfectly clear rule.

Two similar rules can have differences under two different scenarios. It's just rules, and they are clear on the matter.

This appears to be working the way it's intended. GW has made it so that you have to disembark your troops out of their vehicle a turn ahead of time, for them to assault.

Whether you jump them out voluntarily on your own turn, or your opponent blows them out of their vehicle on his turn, your guys don't get to assault on your next assault phase.

Either way your opponent gets at least one chance to shoot at them, basically (in addition to Overwatch), before they get to assault anyone.

Unless it's an open-topped or Assault vehicle, of course.

----------------------

Tactically speaking, remember, though, that your transports can now move 18" if going Flat Out, or 24" if they're Fast. They can't pop smoke while going Flat Out, but they can still use terrain or other units for cover, and only need to be 25% covered. So what you'll usually do, most likely, is zip them 18" or 24" up the field on turn 1, trying to make use of cover/units for saves, then drive 6" on turn 2 and disembark your assaulty unit.

Remember that they can disembark up to 6" out of the vehicle, too, so you're only losing ~3" of distance compared to 5th on turn 2. In 5th the vehicle could move 12", and the guys could disembark so that only the back of their bases was within 2" of a hatch, so that's the extra 3" you're losing.

So your maximum two-turn movement of a unit in a non-Fast transport, if they want to assault on turn 3, is now 30", as opposed to 27" in 5th. Non-Skimmer Fast transports now get you 36", where they used to get you 33".

jcress410 wrote:This really seems like a pretty glaring oversight. Doesn't the first game or two of playtesting expose glitches like these?

Why do we have to wait for a faq before the rules are complete?

Because, for now, we are all still playing 40k.

insaniak wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

jcress410 wrote:This really seems like a pretty glaring oversight. Doesn't the first game or two of playtesting expose glitches like these?

Why do we have to wait for a faq before the rules are complete?

There's no glitch, everything in his question is defined in the ruleset. (but ignore my first post, I was wrong about the Assault Vehicle non-existence thing)

The 'glitch' is that if my assault vehicle is destroyed in my turn, my troops can assault in my assault phase... but if it is destroyed it in yours, they can't.

So, my turn, the vehicle is destroyed and the troops immediately assault. VS Your turn, the vehicle is destroyed, then my turn rolls around and the unit is just standing around contemplating how they can turn the wreckage into a lovely sculpture.

It doesn't look to me like much of a hole, here. The assault restriction is that a unit disembarking from a vehicle cannot declare a chage in "their subsequent Assault phase". So it doesn't matter when my vehicle gets destroyed/when my unit gets out. In MY next Assault phase my unit can't assault, unless it's an assault vehicle or open-topped. I have to wait one turn/skip charging on one Assault phase no matter what.

Mannahnin wrote:It doesn't look to me like much of a hole, here. The assault restriction is that a unit disembarking from a vehicle cannot declare a chage in "their subsequent Assault phase". So it doesn't matter when my vehicle gets destroyed/when my unit gets out. In MY next Assault phase my unit can't assault, unless it's an assault vehicle or open-topped. I have to wait one turn/skip charging on one Assault phase no matter what.

From how it reads it does not seem like you could assault even if the destroyed vehicle was an assault vehicle.

Since the assault vehicle needs to be destroyed in the same turn as your unit wants to assault.

Oh, I see. It's not a hole in the base rules, really, it's a hole in the Assault Vehicle special rule, from sloppy writing.

Hopefully they'll fix that in the first main rulebook FAQ. Everyone should email pointing this one out to GW.

Mannahnin wrote:Oh, I see. It's not a hole in the base rules, really, it's a hole in the Assault Vehicle special rule, from sloppy writing.

Hopefully they'll fix that in the first main rulebook FAQ. Everyone should email pointing this one out to GW.

Exactly.

Thus the issue and why people are wanting an FAQ to clear it up.

Try and keep in mind that you only need to adhere to the rulebook in a tournament setting where each player will try and edge out whatever advantage they can, regardless of the rules making sense. If you don't like the RAW, do what the rulebook says in the first few pages, use it as a guideline, and agree on a new rule for the issue that makes sense.

Hope they FAQ it though :/

How many times are you REALLY going to blow up your own transport on your turn????

Is this really going to break the game? 99% of the time you transport will blow up, and you won't be able to assault the next turn.

That 1% of the time you have one hull point left, ram it into your other land raider and blow it up so they can assault.

Yeah, that's not happening often....But ork trucks.....*runs to build a suicide ork truck list that runs into each other just so I can assault out of an exploding vehicle even though I can assault out of that vehicle.

Don't expect a FAQ guys, there isn't a real scenario that I can think of.......

sfshilo, I think you have misunderstood the issue here.


The issue isn't with being unable to assault after blowing up your own vehicle.

The issue is with assault vehicles, and the idea that the rules make it possible for the models inside to assault if the vehicle blows up in their own turn but not if it happened in the previous player turn....

Have I missed something here? I just read and re-read the rules for transport vehicles and assault vehicles.

What I've come to grasp is that the only time a unit will run into a situation where they would be able to assault out of a vehicle that was wrecked in the same turn would be if I wrecked it myself.

So for example my land raider has one hull point left and I drive through difficult terrain and roll a one. It is now a wreck and the passengers are forced to get out. Being a land raider they can still perform an assault move providing they pass their pinning check.

In the same situation involving a rhino the passengers would not be able to assault as it is not an assault vehicle.

Any other time that my vehicle would be wrecked or destroyed, would be in my opponents turn and would therefore not affect my units unless they were to become pinned. This of course would carry over into my following turn.

As I said did I miss something?

Macok wrote:I quoted the turn rule like 10 minutes ago.
I'm sorry Grugknuckle, but you are incorrect on this matter. Can we move on..?
EDIT:
No, it's the same.

Yeah. It looks like I am wrong. And have been playing it wrong for many years.

*sigh*

EDIT: What I meant was, is the "Cannot assault in the unit's subsequent assault phase." Rule the same as in 5th Ed?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:

insaniak wrote:
The 'glitch' is that if my assault vehicle is destroyed in my turn, my troops can assault in my assault phase... but if it is destroyed it in yours, they can't.

So, my turn, the vehicle is destroyed and the troops immediately assault. VS Your turn, the vehicle is destroyed, then my turn rolls around and the unit is just standing around contemplating how they can turn the wreckage into a lovely sculpture.

Which doesn't make any sense.

Yes, those are the rules. The book clearly states them.

Whether or not it makes sense is irrelevant. No Errata/FAQ/word of god is necessary.

I don't like that Shuriken Catapults are clearly terrible in this edition, but to call that a "glitch that requires a FAQ" would be incorrect.

Thank goodness for house rules.

bigbaboonass wrote:...STUFF...?

Yes, that's correct. A unit that wrecks its own assault vehicle can assault on that same turn. A unit that had its assault vehicle destroyed in the previous enemy turn can not.

insaniak wrote:sfshilo, I think you have misunderstood the issue here.


The issue isn't with being unable to assault after blowing up your own vehicle.

The issue is with assault vehicles, and the idea that the rules make it possible for the models inside to assault if the vehicle blows up in their own turn but not if it happened in the previous player turn....

Again, so what? It's hardly going to happen, if ever. And if it does, you are tank shocking and they got you with a melta bomb, you are already close, the charge should happen. If they blow you up, which will happen 99% of the time, the rules are consistent for 99% of the time. I understand perfectly that people are thinking way outside the box here for a circumstance that will hardly ever happen. To say you won't play the game for something that has a extremely low chance of happening, it's just plain silly. Play the game like you won't be able to assault from an exploded vehicle and 99% of the time you will be correct, plan your tactics around it that's all.

We call this a corner case in the engineering world, and you can spend an awful long time sitting in a corner.

sfshilo wrote:Again, so what? It's hardly going to happen, if ever.

That's kind of the point. The specifically wrote an allowance into the Assault Vehicle rules to do something that will rarely actually come up on the table. It seems more likely that the part of the Assault Vehicle rule in question was actually supposed to just over-ride the normal prohibition on assaulting in your next assault phase, but they just missed the mark a little.

To say you won't play the game for something that has a extremely low chance of happening, it's just plain silly.

Uh... who was saying that...?

But there is *also* an issue between being 'wrecked' and being 'destroyed'.

If my Nids are shooting at your rhino, and wreck it. Tac squad disembarks.
On Marine turn, they may *not* assault.

If my Nids shoot at the rhino, and Explode it. Tac squad is placed in crater.
On Marine turn, they *may* assault.



There is the Assault Vehicle Your Turn/My Turn issue.
There is the Wreck/Explode issue.

jcress410 wrote:I might just not play until all of this kind of stuff gets FAQ'd.

If RAW a unit can't assault in the top of turn 2 because its transport blew up in the bottom of the turn...

That's a crazy advantage for going first, really nerfs every ork army I'd want to play...

TAH DAH!

I don't think it's that crazy to be able to assault in your own phase as the destroyed result is from charging into something almost every time. The other scenarios during the opponents turn, it's unexpected, they aren't assaulting anything or charging anything, they all of a sudden got nailed and exploded.

sfshilo wrote:

insaniak wrote:sfshilo, I think you have misunderstood the issue here.


The issue isn't with being unable to assault after blowing up your own vehicle.

The issue is with assault vehicles, and the idea that the rules make it possible for the models inside to assault if the vehicle blows up in their own turn but not if it happened in the previous player turn....

Again, so what? It's hardly going to happen, if ever. And if it does, you are tank shocking and they got you with a melta bomb, you are already close, the charge should happen. If they blow you up, which will happen 99% of the time, the rules are consistent for 99% of the time. I understand perfectly that people are thinking way outside the box here for a circumstance that will hardly ever happen. To say you won't play the game for something that has a extremely low chance of happening, it's just plain silly. Play the game like you won't be able to assault from an exploded vehicle and 99% of the time you will be correct, plan your tactics around it that's all.

We call this a corner case in the engineering world, and you can spend an awful long time sitting in a corner.

Maybe we're talking about different things. The way this thread is reading the rules, every time a transport is wrecked the unit inside disembarks. Since they disembark, they don't get to assault in their 'subsequent assault phase'.

Sure, there's some issue about what happens if a tank is wrecked on "your" turn, maybe that's the corner case you're talking about.

What I'm talking about is when I wreck the transport on my turn. on your "subsequent assault phase" i.e. your turn, you can't assault.

This will happen all the time. If I wreck a transport, I'll shoot at the guys inside that turn, then on on my next turn I'll shoot them again because they can't get locked in combat, then I'll ether charge them to deny you the charge bonus or wait for you to charge something and one unit will get to overwatch.

So a battlewagon gets wrecked. 20 boys pile out. In fifth, the orks move 6" and then assault. In 6th, Those boys are exposed to shooting for two turns before they can try to assault.

This is one of those rules where...you're playing some random guy at a tournament, you wreck his vehicle and politely let him know his Berzerkers now have to stand 2" away from your Necrons and shoot pistols at them on his turn-----then that awful screaming starts and those eyes....like a dolls eyes...roll back

AgeOfEgos wrote:This is one of those rules where...you're playing some random guy at a tournament, you wreck his vehicle and politely let him know his Berzerkers now have to stand 2" away from your Necrons and shoot pistols at them on his turn-----then that awful screaming starts and those eyes....like a dolls eyes...roll back

'Course, what ninny will have his KhorneBs in a rhino anymore?

Land Raider all the way, baby.

Brothererekose wrote:Course, what ninny will have his KhorneBs in a rhino anymore?

Land Raider all the way, baby.

Same outcome...

DarknessEternal wrote:

Luide wrote:
Page 80 says they're placed where vehicle used to be, page 426 says that they must disembark and are limited to 3" move.

I know it won't necessarily convince anyone, and it's not official, but in the gaming world, rules usually take precedence over summaries.

Pg 80 has the rule, pg 426 is a summary.

But like I said, this may convince no one.

Just to back this up the summary mentions moving up 3 inches when disembarking from an exploding vehicle, which from what I have read for transport vehicles doesnt even exist, lending credit for the reason to take the actual rule over summary, if i happen to be correct.

sfshilo wrote:Again, so what? It's hardly going to happen, if ever.

The Land Raider isn't the only assault vehicle. Allow me to provide a quick scenario. My Stormraven flies onto the table in my turn and is shot down by interceptor fire from a quad gun (or ten). The Assault Vehicle rule would allow my units inside to disembark from the wreck and still assault in my turn. We have a whole slew of new fliers on the way. Perhaps that subtext in the Assault Vehicle rule is specifically for them....