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Yup. Somewhat moot since Banshees are AP3 now, but say they got charged by Mephiston, only one of them would actually get to strike edit - maybe 2 or 3 actually, but still.
It's weird to think people actually play the game like that.

DarthOvious wrote:

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Wow... I'm all for neutering GKs but that's a ridiculous stand to take. I would not enjoy a game against anyone doing such as that.

I'll just not play against anyone who does that. I think it's against the spirit of the rules in my eyes. Using this same logic a whole unit of Banshees would also have to strike at I10 and then pile in afterwards, which of course is just stupid. Scared on the Banshees? Well just charge them in the side of the unit and then half of them can't hit you because they have to strike before piling it.

Do people have reading comprehension problems? A banshee mask makes then init10. Not strike at init 10. So they would pile in and strike at init 10, unless you model their weapons as axes. In that case they would pile in at init 10 and strike at init 1.

You folks should direct your ire at the people that write the rules and not people that play by them.


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Brother SRM wrote:Vehicles in 5th were on the upswing, now they're more towards the center. They're still very, very usable but a bit more fragile. I'm not going to run lists with any more or any less tanks than before, and I will probably do just fine. A Rhino is still plenty useful since it can move even faster now than it used to. 12" in the movement phase then an extra 6" in shooting? Sign me up! So what if it can only take three glances before it's wrecked? When I wreck I can disembark 6" towards my enemy if I want to get closer, or 6" back if I want to get out of the way. Even so, three glances would probably immobilize me anyway, so it's completely moot. Yeah, 6th made vehicles more fragile. They frankly needed it, since in 5th ed you could hit a vehicle a dozen times and do nothing more than scratch the paint.

Wow. Talk about flip flopping. Just remember all the penalties passengers suffer now. Remember, its the quadruple whammy of vehicles not being killed with 'a dozen hits' but with 2 or 3 glances along with the penalties to passengers.

Let me add my 2 cents here as a Mech guard player. I have been playing Mech guard since codex Armageddon came out in 3rd edition. Something about foot slogging guard just seemed odd to me in the far future so I now had rules to mount my guardsmen. then came 4th edition came where transports were the worst thing imaginable and my guardsmen never were inside a transport. I just used the chimeras guns for more firepower. Mind you this whole time I never saw another mounted guard list, and I am a pretty frequent tournament player. Then enter 5th, and its vehicle orgy fest. I soon found myself fighting mech guard lists frequently, and it was no fun. I felt almost dirty knowing that my opponents had no fun fighting me. So I am glad vehicles got a little nerfed (and in my opinion only a little). I am not a WAAC gamer and up until 5th I loved playing guard because they were so utterly the underdogs. Every army overpowered them...

So to sum up I am glad for the power reduction of vehicles, I dont use vendettas/valkyries so I hope people will no longer see my mech guard list as being a WAAC army, despite the fact its composition has not changed through 4 rule sets. Now if there was only a way to nerf space wolves balance might return to the force...

Volkov wrote:

So to sum up I am glad for the power reduction of vehicles, I dont use vendettas/valkyries so I hope people will no longer see my mech guard list as being a WAAC army, despite the fact its composition has not changed through 4 rule sets. Now if there was only a way to nerf space wolves balance might return to the force...

Your russes should be fine.

Transports got a big reduction.

I play wolves and I agree with your sentiment. It wont balance the game, but it sure would help.

What I'm noticing is people ditching ground vehicles in large numbers and battles looking more and more like air to air combat sims over infantry skirmishes.

What I'm noticing is people ditching ground vehicles in large numbers and battles looking more and more like air to air combat sims over infantry skirmishes.

Hooray Hydra!

Aye, however they're typically the first thing to die, and for some unfathomable reason nerfed them against ground targets.

Aye, however they're typically the first thing to die, and for some unfathomable reason nerfed them against ground targets.

I assumed the nerf is going to be irrelevant because you wont fight anything that isnt a flyer in a couple months.

Possibly true

Volkov wrote:

Aye, however they're typically the first thing to die, and for some unfathomable reason nerfed them against ground targets.

I assumed the nerf is going to be irrelevant because you wont fight anything that isnt a flyer in a couple months.

Right until they faq missile launchers get to pay for flakk missiles...

imweasel wrote:

Do people have reading comprehension problems? A banshee mask makes then init10. Not strike at init 10. So they would pile in and strike at init 10, unless you model their weapons as axes. In that case they would pile in at init 10 and strike at init 1.

You folks should direct your ire at the people that write the rules and not people that play by them.

Nah, I think I'll just direct my ire at you for rules-lawyering against what is obviously intended. Banshees with masks should be piling in and striking at initiative 10, GKs with Halberds should be piling in and striking at initiative 6.

Your position is ridiculous, because it invalidates any reason to take these items.

I'm glad you've already been proven wrong below.

imweasel wrote:

Volkov wrote:

Aye, however they're typically the first thing to die, and for some unfathomable reason nerfed them against ground targets.

I assumed the nerf is going to be irrelevant because you wont fight anything that isnt a flyer in a couple months.

Right until they faq missile launchers get to pay for flakk missiles...

It won't happen. The addition of Flakk is for future releases. It will not be FAQd into existing books. Trust me.

imweasel wrote:GK halberds kinda suck. They wind up swinging before they get to pile in and are only ap3.

The underlined is not correct.

Halberds swing and pile in at the same time, just like power axes and power fists.

P.23 right column bold says "Models make their attacks when their initiative step is reached" It also states "Note that certain situations, abilities and weapons can modify a model's Initiative."

The right column on P.23 equates the terms, so the models initiative step is when he is allowed to make attacks, and he piles in at the same time.

DeathReaper wrote:

imweasel wrote:GK halberds kinda suck. They wind up swinging before they get to pile in and are only ap3.

The underlined is not correct.

Halberds swing and pile in at the same time, just like power axes and power fists.

P.23 right column bold says "Models make their attacks when their initiative step is reached" It also states "Note that certain situations, abilities and weapons can modify a model's Initiative."

The right column on P.23 equates the terms, so the models initiative step is when he is allowed to make attacks, and he piles in at the same time.

Unweidly only makes you strike at init 1. It doesnt make you init1.

The pile in step states you pile in at your init, not what you are going to strike at.

Also, I thought it worked like you thought dr, but numerous threads and read throughs changed my mind. It might be intent, but its not raw.

I think the new vehicle flat out rules make transports better at, well, transporting troops quickly. Heavier tanks are still fairly robust, they have taken a hit but I don't think it's shocking...

As a Tau player, not being able to assault out of vehicles doesn't effect me as much as other armies - that must be a real pain. I can't honestly see how you're supposed to get close combat troops into position without serious risk of getting shot up on your way in, and then there's overwatch to deal with... But at the same time there should be a lot more terrain on the board, not quite at infinity levels but noticeably more. I'm sure we've all seen people play 5th ed on pretty much an open board which I can't see happening much any more, tactics are going to come into play a lot more now I think.

And as for that initiative step thing - that's pretty silly. I can see how you could think that on a very strict RAW basis but I think the example of charging though difficult terrain pretty much sorts that out no? At the bottom of the right column on pg 22 it even reminds you, seems to imply that an initiative modifier on when you attack, affects the initiative step you fight at, which also affects when you pile in?

I think GW have done a pretty good job of covering themselves with most of these RAI vs RAW debates in this ed - maybe they're just give the players too much credit in implementing the rules?

From the couple of games in our group I think we are going to see a more “Combined” Arms at least for Marines and probable Guard. We had a game were my opponent took 3 Razorbacks and a Multi-Melta Dread an I took 3 Land Speeders armed with a HB and Typhoons, along with a mixed HBx1/LCX2/ML/x2 Long Fangs Pack and a Rifleman Dread. I managed to take out the Razorbacks with the Auto-Cannon, Heavy Bolter and Krak Missile fire while the Las Cannons took out the Dread.
You are going to need AV13+ out there mixed with your Transports to draw the Big Guns away from your Transports. I think we are going to see a lot less Mechanized SPAM.

What we are going to see a lot less of is Flamer Armed Vehicles, with not being able to Snap Fire Templates [and Blast/Large Blast] weapons. The Four vehicles I immediately saw a “NERF” on were the Double Flamer Land Speeders, Hell Hounds, Land Raider Redeemers and Ball Predators. The Redeemer is the only one that is not getting totally hosed with its PotMS, but that means you are going to have to Snap Fire Everything Else, unless you don’t move at all.
The Vidicator also gets a light “NERF” as you cant Snap Fire the Demolisher Cannon, not that you could before, but with the new Snap Fire Rules its worth taking the 2nd Storm Bolter and the HK Missile. Both for something to do when Shaken and with the new Random Weapon Destroyed Allocation.

Hey guys,

I was really worried about the changes to the vehicle damage rules too, so I actually did some heavy math hammer to work things out. I computed the actual probability that you could wreck or explode a vehicle with up to 20 shots from a given weapon using either the 5th Edition rules or the 6th Edition rules and plotted them on a graph. If you look at the .pdf file I've attached. You can see some of the results.

The probability takes into account both the "To Hit" roll and the "roll to penetrate armor" including modifications for AP 1, AP 2 or AP - and Melta or Lance or whatever. I could also, include modifications to the "to Hit" chance such as "Twin Linked" or "preferred enemy" but in the charts attached I just considered straight Ballistic Skill 4 needing a 3+ to hit.

When it says AV11, I was thinking Rhino, so I gave it 3 hull points. When it says AV14, I was thinking Land Raider so I gave it 4 hull points.

I have this programmed in excell right now, so I can take requests if you'd like to see a different weapon vs. vehicle combination. I could also include cover / jink saves and things like open topped. Just PM me and I'll make you a chart.

My conclusion is this ;
Vehicles are actually vastly improved in 6th edition IN THE SPECIAL CASE that the amount of fire they take from a shooting attack is less than 3 - 5 shots or so. That is primarily due to the fact that glances do not shake / stun in 6th ed, but also that they can move flat out. This means that if your Rhino doesn't die out right, then it gets to zip forward first and rapidly move it's passengers across the board (and then die).

On the other hand, if your opponent insists on destroying a given vehicle, he can mass his fire at it. In that case, obviously, 6thEd rules make vehicles weaker. No big surprises there.

However, I was surprised to see that Krak Missiles are dramatically LESS effective against Rhinos in 6th Edition. Look at the plot and see for yourself. Another surprise to me is that Melta weapons - while still the best option - are just slightly less effective against Land Raiders in 6th.

Thats probably because AP1 does nothing on a Glance(where in 5th an AP1 glance could wreck the vehicle)

So meltaguns(and othr melta weaponry) went to the point that they need to be in Melta range to do damage to a LR(aside from dropping a Hull Point)

Exactly.

And to those people that say, "Melta is out, Plasma is in". My response is that the jury is still out. Yes - plasmaguns are going to be more prevalent due to it's AP2 effect on Terminators AND their ability pop light vehicles. BUT, Land Raiders are still REALLY REALLY tough. You'd better not ditch your meltaguns just yet.

Grugknuckle wrote:Exactly.

And to those people that say, "Melta is out, Plasma is in". My response is that the jury is still out. Yes - plasmaguns are going to be more prevalent due to it's AP2 effect on Terminators AND their ability pop light vehicles. BUT, Land Raiders are still REALLY REALLY tough. You'd better not ditch your meltaguns just yet.

What I meant by plasma is in, melta is out is that you almost would always take melta over plasma as their was vehicle armor everywhere and very few units out in the open.

That is/will no longer be the case for 6th. Units can no longer score embarked and vehicles can no longer contest. Plasma should and will be taken over melta now, not the other way around as it was in 5th, especially with the changes with rapid fire.

Include the triple whammy that the new passenger penalties incur and foot slogging lists are much more viable.

Land raiders are no longer tough as 4 glances will kill it outright, regardless of damage rolls, making mls vastly more effective in killing one.

Space wolves will become the new gk's of 6th ed. Access to cheap mls, cheap scoring units with cheap combi plas with cml termies and op'ed lf squad(s) with tl'ed tank hunting weapons that fry heavy armor.

Necrons have most of the same advantages.

Throw in aegis defence lines for easy 4+ cover and an interesting ability to help handle ap3 shooting flyers and it doesnt look good overall.

And if/when mls get flakk options...well lets just hope folks dont buy a ton of those new fliers...

Given that they already had the opportunity to FAQ in Flakk missiles and didn't, I think it's safe to assume they'll just be including them in future updates and not updating previous books, GW has always been extremely loathe to do anything of that sort for the most part. It took them two and a half years into 5E before they finally decided having multiple different sets of rules for Stormshields, PotMS and Assault Cannons was silly.

So, at the rate GW typically puts out books, it'll likely be 2014 before we see Flakk missiles available enough to make any difference.

Yeah, Chaos and DAs will probably be the first books with Flakk missiles, and the only with them for a long while.

imweasel wrote:
What I meant by plasma is in, melta is out is that you almost would always take melta over plasma as their was vehicle armor everywhere and very few units out in the open.

That is/will no longer be the case for 6th. Units can no longer score embarked and vehicles can no longer contest. Plasma should and will be taken over melta now, not the other way around as it was in 5th, especially with the changes with rapid fire.

I understand you. And I *almost* agree. I don't think plasma will be taken *over* melta now, but *with* melta. You still need both.

Land raiders are no longer tough as 4 glances will kill it outright, regardless of damage rolls, making mls vastly more effective in killing one.

4 glances kill a land raider = TRUE. Land raiders are no longer tough = FALSE. Remember, glancing a Land Raider 4 times is still a daunting task. Four times in one turn? Fairly unlikely with out lots of melta. Look at the .pdf I've provided to prove it. You need to shoot 16 krak missiles at a land raider to have a 10% chance to get 4 glances. In my book, that is a desperate tactic at best. You need to shoot 5 lascannons at a Land Raider to get a 20% chance to destroy it - much improved, but still not guaranteed. For a typical space marine army, 16 missile launchers and 5 lascannons is just about all of it's heavy weapons. If you use all of it to maybe destroy one land raider, how long will it take you to kill four Land Raiders? Exactly. BA and BT Land Raider spam is still viable.

Space wolves will become the new gk's of 6th ed. Access to cheap mls, cheap scoring. units with cheap combi plas with cml termies and op'ed lf squad(s) with tl'ed tank hunting weapons that fry heavy armor.

This is wild speculation. Again, missile launchers are not as effective (against vehicles) as they were in 5th. See the data provided. Against infantry, they are still only AP3 - so terminators shrug them off. Space Wolves are going to be good, but they aren't going to be "the GK" just because they have lots of ML's.

I think you're right about the Necrons though.





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Vaktathi wrote:
So, at the rate GW typically puts out books, it'll likely be 2014 before we see Flakk missiles available enough to make any difference.

Absolutely! They want us all to buy their Fortresses of Redemption and Bastions! Or buy all of the new flyer models!

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

imweasel wrote:

Volkov wrote:

Aye, however they're typically the first thing to die, and for some unfathomable reason nerfed them against ground targets.

I assumed the nerf is going to be irrelevant because you wont fight anything that isnt a flyer in a couple months.

Right until they faq missile launchers get to pay for flakk missiles...

It won't happen. The addition of Flakk is for future releases. It will not be FAQd into existing books. Trust me.

Really isn't GW plan to make everyone to buy Flyers, then nerf them with the FAQ. Or they would of done it in this one. Then everyone will have to buy more stuff to offset there newly weakened Flyers the spent all that money on. Yeah, that sounds about right.

Experiment 626 wrote:

StoneRaizer wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:there is little difference betwin 40k and Magic the gathering, the only one might be that MTG cheaper.

Might be cheaper? Probably not. If you're playing tournament MTG, staple cards can cost up to $50 each. For a competive Standard (Type 2) deck, $200-$400 is a very realistic price range for cards that rotate out of the format a year after purchasing them, if not sooner. MTG cards also have limited print runs, so once the run is over the only option is second hand retailers.

GW on the other hand releases a new rulebook edition every two years, and revises a race's army book/Codex every 5-10 years. I could use Rogue Trader era Space Marine models in a 6E Space Marine list, bring them to a tournament and be perfectly legal.

A GW rules edition lasts about 4-5 years. 40k is infinitely cheeper to play than than things like 'Tragic: The Sadening' or even your monthly/yearly WoW subscription.

Hell, even at $90 up front, if the the 6th edition rules are valid for another 5 years, you've pain a mere $18/year to get the basic rules!
And yes, once you have your models, you don't actually have to ever outright replace them. (of corse, we all do because new stuff looks so much more epic!) But seriously, that $40 rhino will always be a rhino, wether you just bought a shiny MkII or else you're still using your old 2nd edition model.

I've spent money on lots of hobbies over the years. GW has been by far, one of the cheapest over the long haul!

Doing some math I was initially going to disagree with you that it's cheaper over the long haul...but doing some math, if you were to stay with the hobby for 5 years or more, only playing one army, you would be paying 3/4 what you would pay for a WoW subscription over the same amount of time (about $11/m) This is assuming very rough numbers as well as paints/brushes/assorted hobby supplies...over an even longer period this number would probably become even more disparate because most people don't tend to want to collect a new army every 5 years (I do, but I'm weird)

Grugknuckle wrote:I understand you. And I *almost* agree. I don't think plasma will be taken *over* melta now, but *with* melta. You still need both.

I rarely took plasma over melta. I will now take plasma 3-4 to 1 over melta.

Grugknuckle wrote:4 glances kill a land raider = TRUE. Land raiders are no longer tough = FALSE. Remember, glancing a Land Raider 4 times is still a daunting task. Four times in one turn? Fairly unlikely with out lots of melta. Look at the .pdf I've provided to prove it. You need to shoot 16 krak missiles at a land raider to have a 10% chance to get 4 glances. In my book, that is a desperate tactic at best. You need to shoot 5 lascannons at a Land Raider to get a 20% chance to destroy it - much improved, but still not guaranteed. For a typical space marine army, 16 missile launchers and 5 lascannons is just about all of it's heavy weapons. If you use all of it to maybe destroy one land raider, how long will it take you to kill four Land Raiders? Exactly. BA and BT Land Raider spam is still viable.

BA raider spam, maybe. But BA will still have the same issue, killing things. BT? They have been fairly nerfed and I'm not to worried about them.

And 16 krakk ml's would have been a joke to shoot at a LR in 5th. Not so much a joke now. Especially with the huge boost puppies have gotten. Take 2 rp's and some termie cml and you could be shooting 14 tl'ed ml's a turn with one getting to reroll glances and pens. I shudder at what a tl'ed combi-plas wg squad will do...

Grugknuckle wrote:This is wild speculation. Again, missile launchers are not as effective (against vehicles) as they were in 5th. See the data provided. Against infantry, they are still only AP3 - so terminators shrug them off. Space Wolves are going to be good, but they aren't going to be "the GK" just because they have lots of ML's.

I think you're right about the Necrons though.

Not wild speculation. With the advent of your own 4+ cover save terrain, tl'ing ml's and tank hunter rerolls puppies will be blowing armor up left and right. And with the boost to logan wing, the amount of cheap combi-plas is going to be amazing. I already did well vs termie lists. It's going to be even better hunting.

imweasel wrote:
I rarely took plasma over melta. I will now take plasma 3-4 to 1 over melta.

That's fair. It's a matter of taste really. I'll probably be more like 1:1 or 2:1 Plasma : Melta.

And 16 krakk ml's would have been a joke to shoot at a LR in 5th. Not so much a joke now. Especially with the huge boost puppies have gotten. Take 2 rp's and some termie cml and you could be shooting 14 tl'ed ml's a turn with one getting to reroll glances and pens. I shudder at what a tl'ed combi-plas wg squad will do...

Did you mean RP's with the primaris Divination power? Yeah that would be awesome. I'll be taking them! But you're not going to be able to boost all of your missiles this way. Only, say 5-7 per rune priest. In any case, even if you could twin link ALL of your ml's, that would only increase your probability to destroy the LR to 20% with all 16 missiles. If he pops smoke (5+ cover now right?), it goes back down to about 8%.

As for combi-plasma, it's going to be ferocious no doubt. I've already started converting some. Put a wolf-preist in that unit to re-roll all of your 1's. No more Gets Hot!

Not wild speculation. With the advent of your own 4+ cover save terrain, tl'ing ml's and tank hunter rerolls puppies will be blowing armor up left and right. And with the boost to logan wing, the amount of cheap combi-plas is going to be amazing. I already did well vs termie lists. It's going to be even better hunting.

Ok...It's not *wild* speculation. It's just speculation.

Speculation it is then!