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All of the things in the "such as" are things that force it to shoot only with Snap Shots.

Reading the description of the signum it allows the BS to be raised for the "remainder of the shooting phase". Since snapshots are not in the shooting phase this does not apply. I use devastators too and would like this rule to apply but it seems pretty clear that it doesn't.

Gridge wrote: Since snapshots are not in the shooting phase this does not apply.

Since when are snap shots not part of the shooting phase? Overwatch isn't I'll agree, but a ground unit shooting at a flyer=snap shot. A flyer shooting at a ground unit after having declared skyfire for the turn= snap shot. Vehicles that suffer from stun or shaken=snap fire.

Again its resolved as BS1, not the fire is reduced to BS1. The BS of the firer does not mater. The only thing so far I have seen that would support otherwise turned out to be a flat out lie about what an FAQ said.

DarknessEternal wrote:Yep, Tau FAQ says snap shotting Seeker Missiles are BS 5.

At this point, I can't see any reason why a Signum wouldn't operate the same way. It's gear that sets BS. Other gear or effects setting BS are going around Snap Shots "BS1" statement.

Not quite correct. The marklight to fire the Seeker is still a BS1 Snap shot. The Seeker always fires at a BS5 at the marklight. Special case with a with an oddball weapon.


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Happyjew wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Yep, Tau FAQ says snap shotting Seeker Missiles are BS 5.

No it says the Seeker Missiles are BS5 even if the vehicle they are on has a reduced BS (such as being stunned). It makes no mention of Snap Firing, so they would still Snap Fire at BS 1.

Being stunned is what triggers the Snap fire rule.

barnowl wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Yep, Tau FAQ says snap shotting Seeker Missiles are BS 5.

At this point, I can't see any reason why a Signum wouldn't operate the same way. It's gear that sets BS. Other gear or effects setting BS are going around Snap Shots "BS1" statement.

Not quite correct. The marklight to fire the Seeker is still a BS1 Snap shot. The Seeker always fires at a BS5 at the marklight. Special case with a with an oddball weapon.

And why doesn't a Signum fit into this paradigm of "oddball" rule like the two other confirmed cases of it (seeker missile and divination power)?

Because Divination specifically allows it and seeker missiles were faq'd.

Please show me a rule that allows the seeker missile to snap fire at its normal BS. Please note the FAQ does not actually have anything to do with the seeker missile Snap Firing.

It's in the Tau Empire FAQ. It has a list of conditions which cause a vehicle to only fire with Snap Shots, then asks what BS the Seeker Missile fires at.

The answer is BS 5.


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Captain Antivas wrote:Because Divination specifically allows it and seeker missiles were faq'd.

The thing about rules is we have to make resolve specific cases with general rules where the specifics aren't mentioned.

Signums aren't mentioned anywhere else besides in their own rules. There are other effects which make something fire at a set BS use that set BS even when Snap Shotting. Signums may need to work that way also.

The rules on Snap Shotting don't cover anything like this. So the answer is technically a mystery, but there is a precedent.

Let me get this straight.
Vehicle is reduced to BS 1 for whatever reason 9note it specifies reduced not treated as).
Seeker Missile Snap Fires, since the vehicle is reduced to BS1, the Seeker Missile still has BS 5 even though it is Snap Firing.

OTOH, Vehicle is at normal BS. Seeker Missile is Snap Firing. Since the vehicle does not have BS 1, the aforementioned question does not apply. Now the Seeker Missile shots are resolved at BS 1.

Now I see the FAQ as clarifying that just because the vehicle is (for example) Stunned or Shaken, that effect does not carry over to the Seeker Missile. If the Seeker Missile is Snap Firing it would still be resolved atBS 1.

If a model is forced to make snap shots rather than shoot normally, then its ballistic skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots

Seems pretty cut and dry (unfortunately) to me. You can become BS5 but when you take the shots, the shots are counted as being BS1. You're still BS5. You will be BS5 until the end of the shooting phase. Any snap shot shots will be counted as BS1.

Slackermagee wrote: You can become BS5 but when you take the shots, the shots are counted as being BS1.

Why? it's two set modifiers at odds. In the case of Seeker Missiles, Seeker wins, why not Signum?

Where's the actual logic that Signums don't do this as a set modifier but Seeker missiles do?

Darkness, the problem is that snap shot does not care what the actual ballistic skill of the model is. So your signum goes off, and the model is bs 5. So let's say for arguments sake that we take a pen scratch out the bs4 of the devastator marine in question and make it a 5. You are 5 ballistic skill until the end of the turn. Now you are forced to snap shot, you are still ballistic skill 5 when you make the shot, but snap shot tells us "count as ballistic skill 1." Would you argue that, a ballistic skill 10 model gets to reroll a missed shot for snap shot and that on the reroll you get 2+? No one would have a logical leg to stand on in that argument, because the shot is resolved as if the model is ballistic skill 1. Does the models ballistic skill actually become a 1? Nope, it stays at it's normal value, it just counts as a one.

The signum actually changes the ballistics skill on your profile for the turn, snap shots do not change that value. They simply treat the model as if it had a ballistic skill of one in that instance.

The other argument you're making is not a good comparison. The reason it's not, the ballistic skill of the vehicle has NEVER had anything to do with the firing of a seeker missile.

People don't seem to understand the deference between resolved at vs. using models ballistic skill.

Yeah, I would have to agree with the 'doesn't work' camp here. The Signum makes you BS5, but Snap Fire doesn't care what your BS is... it tells you to resolve at BS1.

A rule would have to specifically address Snap Fire BS in order to alter it.

insaniak wrote:The Signum makes you BS5, but Snap Fire doesn't care what your BS is... it tells you to resolve at BS1.

"its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots." - pg 13

There's no "resolve at" as the 3 previous posters have said.

Snap Shots is a set modifier. Signum is a set modifier. Seeker Missile is a set modifier. C overrides A but B does not? Why?

DarknessEternal wrote:Snap Shots is a set modifier. Signum is a set modifier.

Signum is a set modifier that applies for the entire phase.
Snap Shot is a set modifier that applies for that specific type of shooting within the phase.

More specific rule wins.

DarknessEternal wrote:

insaniak wrote:The Signum makes you BS5, but Snap Fire doesn't care what your BS is... it tells you to resolve at BS1.

"its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots." - pg 13

There's no "resolve at" as the 3 previous posters have said.

Snap Shots is a set modifier. Signum is a set modifier. Seeker Missile is a set modifier. C overrides A but B does not? Why?

Apples and oranges. A seeker missile is only attached to the vehicle the vehicle does not control the missile, it is only able to be fired by a Markerlight hit. Therefore any conditions that the vehicle is under have no effect on the seeker missile since they are fired by a Markerlight hit and the rule states it is resolved at BS5 always. The rule even specifically states that it ignores how far the vehicle moves and other weapons it fired.