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Lynata wrote:Just look at the real world, even today we're still experiencing the "feedback" from a couple centuries of racial/cultural bias, religious bigotry and gender division/suppression.

You're assuming we have made progress on these issues as if progress is some objective thing rather than premised on ever-shifting matrix of elite preferences and ambivalence.

I also believe that the Emperor Himself wasn't quite so naive, and instead fully aware that humanity would have to pay a price for survival.

Didn't we talk about this just last week? I think he did pay a price. Look at what happened to the primarchs. and look at what happened to humanity generally.

Manchu wrote:You're assuming we have made progress on these issues as if progress is some objective thing rather than premised on ever-shifting matrix of elite preferences and ambivalence.

Not really, I'm more of the opinion that progress of this sort generally can be detected. Just not reliably measured.

Manchu wrote:Didn't we talk about this just last week? I think he did pay a price. Look at what happened to the primarchs. and look at what happened to humanity generally.

I wasn't referring to the results of the Heresy, but about the shape the Imperium took during the Great Crusade already. The willingness to breed an army of supersoldiers who live only for war alone is pretty far from the ideals Star Trek attempts to instill, for example. I have no reason to believe that it would look notably better during a second Great Crusade, or beyond, would such a thing ever happen. Basically, benign and ruthless are not mutually exclusive traits, and I think the Emperor would be both.

There's no argument about the violence of the Great Crusade. What I mentioned was the alleged utopia waiting on the other side of it.

Manchu wrote:There's no argument about the violence of the Great Crusade. What I mentioned was the alleged utopia waiting on the other side of it.

Which possibly would have been bought about if it weren't for the meddling of those pesky Chaos Gods.

There's really no indication than any such utopia is possible in the 40k setting.

Manchu wrote:There's really no indication than any such utopia is possible in the 40k setting.

It was a bit of an ideal wasn't it.

Utopia is impossible given that everyone is different.
The closest thing to collective utopia is a hyper efficient economic system that allows citizens to devote their lives to the pursuit of leisure, I suppose that exists in some parts of the Imperium, if only among the rich.

I think in regards to the Astropaths and the Nomnomicon, we have to consider what was happening during the Great Crusade. Everywhere we read that the psykers are fed to the Emperor and he powers the Nomnomicon, and that Astropaths must be brought into His Presence to be given the soul binding. And yet, during the Great Crusade, the Emperor moved across the entire Galaxy! Did the Emperor's schedule really look like this?:

10:00am - Attack Alpha Tauri 4.
12:45pm - Finish the attack and plant flag in demolished Xenos fortress.
1:00pm - Soul Bind this week's batch of over 100,000 psykers.
4:00pm - Break for tea.
5:00pm - Continue Soul Binding...

To me it makes little to no logistical sense to have the Black Boats of an Inquisition not yet created follow around the vanguard of an Army who from week to week, month to month, may be in a completely different sector of the Galaxy. Ergo, the soul binding does not require the Emperor's presence, and more than likely, something about the throne room itself allows the soul binding. Of course, that can't be the Throne itself, as it wasn't built yet.

Now, onto the Nomnomicon. As a beacon of psychic energy in the warp one must admit it serves admirably. It provides a non-moving point from which Navigators might determine their own positions relative to that of their destination. Only, there has to be other ways. The Navigator gene is over 20,000 years old, and the Emperor only started acting openly in the years leading up to the Great Crusade. My belief is that the Astronomicon was constructed as a beacon, yes, but not for Warp Travel. The Emperor was all about empowering mankind, not having thousands of men sacrifice themselves each day. It was constructed as a beacon for help. As in "Help, my traitor sons are coming here to destroy all I have built, get here now loyal sons. That means YOU Roboute and Lion'el!" It was just never turned off...

Which leads us to the Golden Throne... now there's a nifty little device. Helpful for opening up a man-made connection to the Eldar Webway... or keeping it closed. After Magnus f'd up his father's prize experiment (come to think of it, why would he construct a beacon in the warp, if he was just planning on having Mankind travel through the Webway?) with his sorcerous ways, the Emperor was confined to the Throne Room to keep the gate sealed. It was because of this (not because he was being emo about his sons attacking him) that he could not join the battle. Upon his return from killing Horus, he MODIFIED the Throne to be a life support device (or told someone else how to, but same difference), not because he needed to power the Astronomicon, not because he wanted to be worshiped, but because Daemons on Terra =/= Good Thing!

The Emperor's form is decaying yes. At a much reduced rate, yes. Eventually it will decay completely. And then we're f'd. Not because the Nomnomicon will fail (as I pointed out there have to be other ways to Navigate). Not because Psykers won't be bound (they weren't before the Great Crusade and mankind didn't destroy itself... well except for that one time with Robots, but that was robots, not Psykers). Not because the Emperor is holding back the Warp from consuming mankind... oh wait, he is. Just not in a metaphorical sense. Imagine if you will what would happen if Terra were to be overrun by Daemons. No High Lords of Terra, pretty soon no AdMech on Mars, and from then on? I'll let the Nightmares of your Dark Heresy characters take it from there...

We've talked about how dreadnoughts can preserve the bodies of SM's for centuries after their deaths, additionally, servo skulls carry the brains of servants in... skulls. The Emperor's body, enshrined in the greatest mechanical achievement of mankind, all that could really be left of His still working corpse is his skull and vegetable brain.

Of course, I am now thinking about how everyone assumes the Throne/Emperor and the Astronomicon are linked. For what the Emperor constructed the Throne for, that makes no sense. Of course if he wanted a battery to power the throne and provide him with reserves of Psychic energy so he could regenerate and take the reigns of the Imperium again, linking it to the Astronomicon makes perfect sense. But then where would be the fantastic beacon that Navigators had come to rely on in the past decades of the Horus Heresy go?

Not to mention all those people in power who DIDN'T want the Emperor to wake up... maybe if they just reversed the flow of psychic energy... after all, the Emperor is Eternal, and has an unlimited potential for Psychic energy, right? Right?

I heard that the emperors mind is still fully intact and he has been sitting in the golden throne bored out of his wits for 10000 years while using his immense psychic power to...
A) hold a massive warp portal over south America closed
B) nom nom psykers to power the astronomicon
C) protect all of his servants from daemonic entities during warp travel

Even with the throne holding his mind together and augmenting his considerable powers, he doesn't have enough power to heal his rotting carcass (even though under normal circumstances he could do it in the blink of an eye)

well if Emperor get out of the throne the hole imperial religion will get lost. not the imperioum but only the religion.that means that many people (mostly the Chuch) will lose all their profits.just imagine what will happen to the high lords of tera if Emperor came again or people start believe that they have rights

About deamons : Eldar live fine and whithout the Throne

There's a lot of words in this thread so apologies if it's been mentioned, but it's 'corporeal' not 'corporal.'

Sorry to be that guy, but for some reason it really made my OCD itch!

azreal13 wrote:There's a lot of words in this thread so apologies if it's been mentioned, but it's 'corporeal' not 'corporal.'

No it's not.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?sugexp=chrome,mod=9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=define%3Acorporal

Adjective:
Of or relating to the human body.

Well you learn something new every day!

Still doesn't scan right to me, but can't argue with facts.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:

Personally, when I first saw that image, I thought it was a mask, as you can clearly see the skin in his hands remains natural looking.

You know, I never noticed that. But I don't think it's a mask, maybe a helmet-like VR interface or something along that line,

...............
!! HERETICS!!
...............

That is all.

Tadashi wrote:

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:

Personally, when I first saw that image, I thought it was a mask, as you can clearly see the skin in his hands remains natural looking.

You know, I never noticed that. But I don't think it's a mask, maybe a helmet-like VR interface or something along that line,

I don't think the emperor would need any sort of mechanical inteface, given how he's, you know...the emperor.
But some sort of medical thing maybe, to stop his brain rotting away.

As I said, something along those lines.

blood guard26 wrote:I heard that the emperors mind is still fully intact and he has been sitting in the golden throne bored out of his wits for 10000 years while using his immense psychic power to...
A) hold a massive warp portal over south America closed
B) nom nom psykers to power the astronomicon
C) protect all of his servants from daemonic entities during warp travel

A) And doing that since Magnus' ill-fated "warning" thus being occuped enough that Corax was forced to fight throught defenses of E's secret lab instead of his "Pa" simply unlocking the door.

B)
In time of old codices (3 Ed.?) there was some other rather poetic explanation for "Carrion Lord" title - down then Emperor's "feast" was byproduct of Astronomicon work - i.e. psykers were burning themselves out in Choir (they did due to overworking since time of HH - see "Outcast Dead"), and Emperor was kept inside their "light", using otherwise wasted energy/lifeforce to sustain himself.
But this was evidently not grimdark enough and led to heretical thoughts that Big E in M41 is a High Lords of Terra's scam.

C) Isn't that what thingie called Geller Field is for? Also (B) is largest factor too.

I tend to agree with the earlier post which suggested the Throne and Astronomicon aren't in fact linked at all besides the fact that the Throne is where the Emperor is and is keeping his body and soul together.

The psychic power for the beacon is provided by the Chosen of the Adeptus Astronomica as their lifeforce is drained away in the Forbidden Fortress. This beacon is then directed by the Emperor's mind, which explains why it worked fine before he was "plugged-in" and was wandering the galaxy. That he can do this as a mere sideshow while conquering the galaxy etc just shows how powerful a psyker he is.

The Sacrifice psykers the Emperor/the Throne "eats" up are taken from those collected by the Telepathica who are too weak or dangerous to be made into something more useful, these provide sustainace for the Emperor as "soulfood" and keep his gestalt lifeforce topped up otherwise, IMHO, he too would be sucked dry by the Throne as Malcador was and Magnus would have been as the Throne sucks out psychic energy to keep the human-built webway section open and secure.The fact he is still decaying is a much slowed down version of what happened to the Sigillite and this and the increasing number of Sacrifices needed shows just how costly it is for the individual operating the Throne, never mind the fact that it is breaking down.

Eusebius wrote:
... he too would be sucked dry by the Throne as Malcador was and Magnus would have been as the Throne sucks out psychic energy to keep the human-built webway section open and secure.The fact he is still decaying is a much slowed down version of what happened to the Sigillite and this and the increasing number of Sacrifices needed shows just how costly it is for the individual operating the Throne, never mind the fact that it is breaking down.

I don't think so. IIRC, before Magnus ruptured the psychic barriers around the Human-built sections of the Webway, the Emperor had no trouble controlling the Golden Throne at all - he was sitting on it when Magnus sent his 'message', and there were no sacrifices being 'fed' into the Golden Throne. Not to mention the vision of Magnus as a shrivelled husk on the Golden Throne was given by Tzeentch - he probably saw his father, not himself. Magnus would probably have survived or even be unaffected by controlling the Golden Throne...Malcador, no, I don't think so. Powerful psyker he might have been, but even his body is still that of an ordinary Human. He wouldn't have survived, regardless of whether Magnus ruptured the psychic barriers or not. Besides, its no longer about maintaining the psychic barriers - its now about keeping the ruined Webway Gate-turned Warp Portal behind the Golden Throne shut.

You may have a point Tadashi, especially regarding Magnus' vision however I'd offer some counter arguments. I agree that the Emperor seemed to be able to manage fine before Magnus broke through but we can assume that after this happened the psychic cost of sitting on the Throne and keeping it open/shut in the face of massive demonic assault went up greatly so that Malcador, supposedly the second greatest psyker after the Emperor, didn't last very long. Given that the Emperor is "plugged in" after he has been physically and psychically battered by Horus is it any wonder he needs help to keep going?

I'd like to point out here that people believe that the Emperor's body is necessary for the Astronomican- I think that when the Emperor inevitably dies, he'll become a warp god, and the IOM will be better off than before, but most In the Imperium would see me purged for my heresies if I spoke that belief.

DOOMBREAD wrote:I'd like to point out here that people believe that the Emperor's body is necessary for the Astronomican- I think that when the Emperor inevitably dies, he'll become a warp god, and the IOM will be better off than before, but most In the Imperium would see me purged for my heresies if I spoke that belief.

BURN THE HERETIC!

Eusebius wrote:You may have a point Tadashi, especially regarding Magnus' vision however I'd offer some counter arguments. I agree that the Emperor seemed to be able to manage fine before Magnus broke through but we can assume that after this happened the psychic cost of sitting on the Throne and keeping it open/shut in the face of massive demonic assault went up greatly so that Malcador, supposedly the second greatest psyker after the Emperor, didn't last very long. Given that the Emperor is "plugged in" after he has been physically and psychically battered by Horus is it any wonder he needs help to keep going?

Agreed, except the part where Malcador is the second most-powerful Human psyker after the Emperor. Magnus is the second most-powerful Human psyker - that's the reason (apart from his demi-god's physical and mental endurance) he was the first choice, or rather, the Golden Throne was built for him to use originally.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:This would also explain the abundance of skulls in Imperial architechture. Maybe it is so because his face actually looks like a skull? Usually even statues depicting him have a skull in the place of their heads.

Wait, the Emperor is Skeletor? While amusing in thought I always thought that he was more of a He-Man figure.

Seriously, I'd always heard that he was patterned off of a fictional movie character from the 80's.......I believe it was supposed to be the "Highlander" IIRC. I could be wrong though.

Testify wrote:

azreal13 wrote:There's a lot of words in this thread so apologies if it's been mentioned, but it's 'corporeal' not 'corporal.'

No it's not.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?sugexp=chrome,mod=9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=define%3Acorporal

Adjective:
Of or relating to the human body.

For clarity, it would have been better to use corporeal. Remember that this is a wargaming forum and the choice to use the version of the word that has 2 pertinent meanings can be considered a poor one. That is, unless the OP was going for a double entendre.

When I first saw the title to this thread, I got a visual of the Emperor somehow demoted to the rank of corporal and pulling KP/pealing potatoes and cleaning trash cans.

How about this -

The emperor has always really been a rotting corpse (he's thousands of years old) - His previous glamorous, corporeal incarnation was just a psychic projection of big muscular power armoured dude, but since being wounded and powering the 'nomicon, he doesnt have enough power remaining to channel into projecting the glamour image of himself.

I always thought the body was clinically dead, but the golden throne keeps his soul tethered to his body.