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Theres a bunch of human-like but not human races in popular Scifi too. I'll dig up a list when i have time.



Incidentally claiming that Hobbits don't count, as they are really human, kindof undermines your point They aren't human, but act and look somewhat like them, as the 40k races generally do.

The Startrek races (and other sc-fi series..i just used ST as an example) (especially from the older series) are much the same. Human (but green, blue, bone-headed) with human emotions and an understandable societal framework.



'Also lol at you failing to notice one slight difference - the fact that they are emotionally completely unlike humans. If you don't regard emotions as important to the charectors in a story...I think we're done here. '

How so. They all have a range of emotion (again barring nids..). They can all feel anger, triumph, satisfaction (since fething Ward retconned the Crons anyway). Some of them can feel it more intensely, like the Eldar, but it's still the same emotions. Some humans can feel emotions more intensely than others. or less so, and some have little to no capacity for emotion at all.

Please describe how each of the xeno races is emotionally completely unlike humanity?





just from the top shelf of my gameroom bookcase.

The Borrowers
The Hobbit (and no, neither Bilbo or Gandalf are human, and most of the people they encounter aren't either)
Shadow Moon, Shadow Sun (and Shadow Star i think, but i don't have that one ) - all written primarily from the Nelwyn perspective.
Mercedes Lackey: Chrome Circle series: About half are written from the Elven viewpoint
Grendel by John Gardner - Beowulf from grendel's perspective.

Much of Elaine Cunningham's writing deals with stories from the Elven or Drow perspective

Same with R.A, Salvatore

The Bicentennial Man by Isaac Asimov - From a robot's perspective.

The gods themselves - Isaac Asimov - tripartite alien perspective

The Chanur Chronicles by C. J. Cherryh


If you only read humanocentric fiction, it's no surprise you think only humans can be the protagonist

thanks guys that was a lot of help. and entertainment

Because, even outside of 40k, writing from the perspective of something that isn't a human is very hard, and the protagonist has to win, out of simple adherence to tradition. Frankly, though, a book where the protagonist loses or even dies would be very interesting...

It would probably be a bit difficult to write from the perspective of a mindless or barbaric alien or write in a way that would match the tone of the eldar or tau. Also we usually feel good inside when our race wins, especially with acts of heroism.

Purifier wrote:Because writing a book from the perspective of a Xenos is hard.
Because when writing a book you need
1) a build up where you explain the lay of the land and introduce the characters
2) a turning point where our hero gets into trouble
3) his fight back to power and ultimately his prevail over evil.

You think you want to read a book where the other side wins for once, but you don't. With a few exceptions no one likes a book where the antagonist wins. (remember the antagonist can be the good guy if the hero of the book is the bad guy. That's not a problem.)

We always want our protagonist to win. And since it's easier to write a book that you can get into where the protagonist is something that resembles you in some way, most books have human protagonists.

It's because of how writing works.

Its kinda hard to writing form the perspective of an Tau/Eldar/Nid/Necron. Considering the fact it is easier for somebody to get attach to a character they feel similar too, and its a hell of lot easier to write from human perspective then it is a Kroot.

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Milisim wrote:Because heaven forbid Xenos win a few!


Gw would implode in on itself if the favoured sons, the marines, lost!


GW blindly supports its #1 model range at the expense of every other race.

Also ya know last time I check most of the fans support the Imperium. Also this

pretre wrote:Go ahead and step away from the computer for a second.

Now pull up your character sheet. I'll wait.

Okay, now go to the section labelled 'Race'. What's listed there?

Aha, really. I think you'll find that most of the users of Games Workshop's products also selected 'Human' as their race when they were creating their character. That might have something to do with the bias.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ascalam wrote:Theres a bunch of human-like but not human races in popular Scifi too. I'll dig up a list when i have time.



Incidentally claiming that Hobbits don't count, as they are really human, kindof undermines your point They aren't human, but act and look somewhat like them, as the 40k races generally do.

The Startrek races (and other sc-fi series..i just used ST as an example) (especially from the older series) are much the same. Human (but green, blue, bone-headed) with human emotions and an understandable societal framework.



'Also lol at you failing to notice one slight difference - the fact that they are emotionally completely unlike humans. If you don't regard emotions as important to the charectors in a story...I think we're done here. '

How so. They all have a range of emotion (again barring nids..). They can all feel anger, triumph, satisfaction (since fething Ward retconned the Crons anyway). Some of them can feel it more intensely, like the Eldar, but it's still the same emotions. Some humans can feel emotions more intensely than others. or less so, and some have little to no capacity for emotion at all.

Please describe how each of the xeno races is emotionally completely unlike humanity?





just from the top shelf of my gameroom bookcase.

The Borrowers
The Hobbit (and no, neither Bilbo or Gandalf are human, and most of the people they encounter aren't either)
Shadow Moon, Shadow Sun (and Shadow Star i think, but i don't have that one ) - all written primarily from the Nelwyn perspective.
Mercedes Lackey: Chrome Circle series: About half are written from the Elven viewpoint
Grendel by John Gardner - Beowulf from grendel's perspective.

Much of Elaine Cunningham's writing deals with stories from the Elven or Drow perspective

Same with R.A, Salvatore

The Bicentennial Man by Isaac Asimov - From a robot's perspective.

The gods themselves - Isaac Asimov - tripartite alien perspective

The Chanur Chronicles by C. J. Cherryh


If you only read humanocentric fiction, it's no surprise you think only humans can be the protagonist

Because many of those species are given human characteristics, and senses (sight, taste, touch, etc.). For example yes a Hobbit isn't technically human. But, it might as well be. It has the same senses, similar conception of reality, and similar emotional range. The same goes for most of the stuff you listed. But, you are right in that it can be done. If the alien is given human like feelings, sense, traits.

Also what most xeno lovers forget is that most people in general prefer reading about Guard/Marines. Because A: They just like the stories, B: Because they like reading about the armies they play

Also, where is it written that aliens have to have radically different emotional ranges and mental landscapes ? It's a common assumption, but not necessarily true

In Path of the Fury by David Weber, for example, one of the primary alien races (the Quarn) are quite similar emotionally and intellectually to humans, though radically different in phisiology. The other main race, the Rishathans, are biologically much closer, but have a far less human mindset.

It's not inconcievable that there are aliens out there who might be very different physically, but be mentally similar.


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Sight, touch, smell, taste and hearing are 'human (TM) senses now? Almost all living creatures have at least one of these. Doesn't make them human

'Also what most xeno lovers forget is that most people in general prefer reading about Guard/Marines. Because A: They just like the stories, B: Because they like reading about the armies they play '

And C: They are the only stories available in the setting If there were an even amount of xeno and IOM stories, instead of there being ....two? .. they might be a bit more widely read Don't get me wrong, i enjoy the Guard based stories as well (the Marine ones less so, but that's my own taste) but i'd happily read a story about Tau, say, or Orks that had them as the central theme, instead of target practise..

Part of the problem is that an Eldar who behaves much like a human isn't really an Eldar in any important way, s/he's just a human with pointy ears.

Hobbits are short, round humans.
Dwarves are short, square humans.
Elves? Tall, skinny humans.
Orcs? Violent, brutish humans from a darkened "empire".

... you do know that the Hobbit and LotR series were written by a human who was using these legendary races/races he created as stand-ins for various classes of British and European citizens, right? These stories are allegories, and every character in it is just a metaphor.

Ascalam wrote:Also, where is it written that aliens have to have radically different emotional ranges and mental landscapes ? It's a common assumption, but not necessarily true

In Path of the Fury by David Weber, for example, one of the primary alien races (the Quarn) are quite similar emotionally and intellectually to humans, though radically different in phisiology. The other main race, the Rishathans, are biologically much closer, but have a far less human mindset.

It's not inconcievable that there are aliens out there who might be very different physically, but be mentally similar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sight, touch, smell, taste and hearing are 'human (TM) senses now? Almost all living creatures have at least one of these. Doesn't make them human

'Also what most xeno lovers forget is that most people in general prefer reading about Guard/Marines. Because A: They just like the stories, B: Because they like reading about the armies they play '

And C: They are the only stories available in the setting If there were an even amount of xeno and IOM stories, instead of there being ....two? .. they might be a bit more widely read Don't get me wrong, i enjoy the Guard based stories as well (the Marine ones less so, but that's my own taste) but i'd happily read a story about Tau, say, or Orks that had them as the central theme, instead of target practise..

But, in another book by David Weber "Out of the Darkness" cannot understand why humans who familial bonds above all else, and that is their undoing. But, keep some things in mind. A: The reason many animals on earth have similar sense is because we all have come from a similar evolutionary line. An alien species might evolve to with out the sense of sight, and would use scents to communicate complex thought or actions with each other, instead of speech. B: While you have listed some great books, keep in mind they aren't set in the 40k universe. So things might not be similar. C: While I do admit that there should be some more Xeno fluff out there. Many a Xeno fanboy (not necessarily you, or anyone else in this thread, but among the community/in general) would rather have them be the the sole focus of 40k.

On a side note you might like to read "Fear the Alien" there are some good stories in it from the Dark Eldar/Nid perspective.

I'm a guard fanboy too, despite not actually collecting/playing them

Fear the alien was a good one. So was Xenoogy, mostly.


It is possible, and likely in the 40K universe, that all the races (barring Nids, Ctan and Necrons) DO descend from common DNA though, or at least were intended to percieve the universe in a similar way. Almost all the races were engineered by the same 'parent race' : the Old Ones, and that's a decent blag for them all looking similar and sharing the same sensorium and rough mindset.

From a biogenetic point of view we're all 'old ones' descendants, created (roughly) in their image..


**edit for extended rambling and minor drooling..**

Ascalam wrote:I'm a guard fanboy too

Fear the alien was a good one. So was Xenoogy, mostly.

Oh I'll fully admit that I am Imperial fanboy. But, that doesn't mean I don't enjoy a Xeno story or too.

I'd not want xenos to be the sole focus of 40K.

Humanity has to be in there somewhere, even if it is as slaves in Commoragh or cocktail weiners in the hive ships

I would prefer that the setting was a tad less IOM-o-centric though, as the other species only really show up in the books as targets.

Now if the IOM were to collapse, and then rebuild itself from the ashes, THEN that'd be a book series i'd queue up for (and no, the Horus Heresy books don't count for that.. most of them are a bit turgid at best.

I just think that I should point out that when I said "Xeno fanboy" I also said "not necessarily you" . You are nowhere near close to a Xeno fanboy (maybe a xeno lover ) I know people IRL and on this forum who are rapid Xeno fanboys. Who want the IOM to collapse and the Xenos (read as Tau) to become the new stars of 40k.

Wishfl thinking to the max on the Tau thing

Da Orks is da Starz!

I suppose if you scrunched enough Tau up really well they'd burst into a mass of flaming hydrogen though .... just like everything else...

Psienesis wrote:Part of the problem is that an Eldar who behaves much like a human isn't really an Eldar in any important way, s/he's just a human with pointy ears.

Or, rather, Humans are just Eldar with less potent emotions and non-pointy ears.

BlaxicanX wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Part of the problem is that an Eldar who behaves much like a human isn't really an Eldar in any important way, s/he's just a human with pointy ears.

Or, rather, Humans are just Eldar with less potent emotions and non-pointy ears.

Does that mean humans (and every other xeno species) are Orks without the green skin, spores, and the ability to make square bullets fire out of round barrels? If so does that mean my IG get Waaaghs?

Are Eldar fungus?

No, they don't deserve the honor of being Orkish. IMHO they are prissy, arrogant/racist (just as much as the IOM), donkey-caves.


EDIT: To make my point more clear

Did you just call the Eldar more racist than the Imperium of Man? The race that casually exterminates other races from the galaxy with no remorse solely for being different? Whose average citizen is raised on force fed prejudice and ignorance? As opposed to a society that actually exalts life and whose citizens must put "masks" up to prevent from being driven insane by the death that accompanies war (they feel compassion and guilt as readily as they feel malice or hatred -- even if at a heightened level)? I think this is a clear case of the pot calling the kettle black Makarov.

The Eldar also have no monopoly on arrogance. This I promise you. You might want to take a closer look at the human "protagonists" before pointing fingers.

One more thing; I've made a lot of claims about the Eldar here. I've based the assumptions on what I've read from the "Path" novels by Gav Thorpe. There presently isn't a lot else to go off of.

*Edited to fix discrepancy. Apologies BlaxicanX.

Makarov wrote:No, they don't deserve the honor of being Orkish. IMHO they are prissy, arrogant/racist (even more that the IOM), donkey-caves.

Nightwolf829 wrote:Did you just call the Eldar more racist than the Imperium of Man? The race that casually exterminates other races from the galaxy with no remorse solely for being different? Whose average citizen is raised on force fed prejudice and ignorance? As opposed to a society that actually exalts life and whose citizens must put "masks" up to prevent from being driven insane by the death that accompanies war (they feel compassion and guilt as readily as they feel malice or hatred -- even if at a heightened level)? I think this is a clear case of the pot calling the kettle black Blaxican.

The Eldar also have no monopoly on arrogance. This I promise you. You might want to take a closer look at the human "protagonists" before pointing fingers.

One more thing; I've made a lot of claims about the Eldar here. I've based the assumptions on what I've read from the "Path" novels by Gav Thorpe. There presently isn't a lot else to go off of.

^ This.

Please, read some Imperium fluff Makarov. The Imperium is the most genocidal faction in the Galaxy by a pretty large margin.

Also, Night Wolf, why are you referring to me up there? lol. I didn't say that the Imperium is less racist than the Eldar..

BlaxicanX wrote:

Makarov wrote:No, they don't deserve the honor of being Orkish. IMHO they are prissy, arrogant/racist (even more that the IOM), donkey-caves.

Nightwolf829 wrote:Did you just call the Eldar more racist than the Imperium of Man? The race that casually exterminates other races from the galaxy with no remorse solely for being different? Whose average citizen is raised on force fed prejudice and ignorance? As opposed to a society that actually exalts life and whose citizens must put "masks" up to prevent from being driven insane by the death that accompanies war (they feel compassion and guilt as readily as they feel malice or hatred -- even if at a heightened level)? I think this is a clear case of the pot calling the kettle black Blaxican.

The Eldar also have no monopoly on arrogance. This I promise you. You might want to take a closer look at the human "protagonists" before pointing fingers.

One more thing; I've made a lot of claims about the Eldar here. I've based the assumptions on what I've read from the "Path" novels by Gav Thorpe. There presently isn't a lot else to go off of.

^ This.

Please, read some Imperium fluff Makarov. The Imperium is the most genocidal faction in the Galaxy by a pretty large margin.

I realize that Imperium of man is Xenoblic I've read the some of the fluff. I don't think I wrote my point clear enough, I will go back and edit my post. That said the Eldar just aren't Xenophobic, as much as arrogant. But, they are just as bad as IoM and everyone else in 40k for that matter.

I think that the are more racist than they are given credit for.They are just as racist as humans. They just don't feel that other races are worth the time to kill. Eldar are often just as willing to sacrifice lesser races for their own good, and the often do. There has been more then one time where they have sent Hive fleets in the IOM direction to distract them. Also I forgot the name of the novel, but there was this one planet that from verdant paradise to terrible wasteland in the HH, and was fought with 1000s of tanks. The Humans were digging new tunnels and ran into a powerful chaos thingamachig, then fully excavated it. Eldar come along and start killing the humans to get the the said Chaos Relic to seal it. Of course, the humans don't do well with this, and actually manage to kick eldar booty. Whilst they fight, the Chaos Relic activates, pouring demons down upon the world. Only then do the Eldar try to be 'nice' with the humans. Also you know that the Eldar steered the Orks toward Armaggedon right.

Also I a currently reading "The purging of Kadillus" for the record.

But that's the point. Eldar sacrifice other races for their own survival.

The Imperium doesn't. The Imperium will gladly slaughter any alien, even if they're completely harmless. Humanity genuinely believes that it has a God-given right to govern every planet within the Galaxy, and that no other species has the right to live.

The Eldar, do not. They feel a special fondness for the Tau, and go out of their way to not attack them. They have no problem leaving human colonies alone, even vulnerable ones that they could destroy and get away with impunity, so long as that colony doesn't end up costing Eldar lives sometime in the future. And in the Horus Hersey, the Eldar trusted Humanity and initially didn't believe that they were all bad, up until the point where the Imperium slaughtered the Eldar every time they tried to warn them about Horus' treachery.

The Eldar's xenophobia and the Imperium's xenophobia aren't comparable in the slightest.

BlaxicanX wrote:But that's the point. Eldar sacrifice other races for their own survival.

The Imperium doesn't. The Imperium will gladly slaughter any alien, even if they're completely harmless. Humanity genuinely believes that it has a God-given right to govern every planet within the Galaxy, and that no other species has the right to live.

The Eldar, do not. They feel a special fondness for the Tau, and go out of their way to not attack them. They have no problem leaving human colonies alone, even vulnerable ones that they could destroy and get away with impunity, so long as that colony doesn't end up costing Eldar lives sometime in the future. And in the Horus Hersey, the Eldar trusted Humanity and initially didn't believe that they were all bad, up until the point where the Imperium slaughtered the Eldar every time they tried to warn them about Horus' treachery.

The Eldar's xenophobia and the Imperium's xenophobia aren't comparable in the slightest.

I should point out that the reason the IOM attacked the eldar during the HH, was because the Flugrim (who had already turned to chaos). Had attacked the Eldar (who didn't know that he had turned at the time), and the Eldar responded by attacking the IOM.

They gave birth to a Chaos god, and before the split of Dark Eldar & Eldar it was common for Eldar to torture for fun.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Fall_of_the_Eldar

"Eldar technology had advanced so far by the height of their empire that little or no work was required by individual Eldar. As a result, at some point around the 24th or 25th Millennium, groups of Eldar began forming groups known as Pleasure Cults dedicated to the pursuit of experiencing every sensation, pleasurable or painful, that life had to offer. As the Eldar's emotions are often more powerful than those experienced by Mankind, they were capable of the dedicated pursuit of sensation in a way that even the most sybaritic members of the human race would find difficult to comprehend. These pursuits became more extreme, hedonistic and depraved as time went on. Torture and murder came to be seen as art forms every bit as worthy as poetry, music and painting. The Eldar were extremely long-lived (even immortal before the Curse of the Nightbringer), never suffered from senility or disease, and their superior intellects, deep emotional resonance and potent psychic powers allowed them to perfect their skills to a degree far beyond that of even the most talented humans. The Eldar were able to devise cunning new ways of torturing and killing their fellows at rates never imagined.

Government within the Eldar empire soon collapsed and the degeneration of their homeworlds and colonies into utter depravity continued unimpeded. As the pursuit of ever more extreme experiences reached its height, death reigned in the streets of Eldar cities, hunter and hunted each being part of a twisted ritual of destruction which consumed millions of lives. Some Eldar were able to see that their now-corrupt society was destroying itself, and fled in disgust; these refugees would settle in the distant planetary colonies of their empire and would later be known as the Exodites."

There is a short story when Marines get mauled by the nids,

Makarov wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:But that's the point. Eldar sacrifice other races for their own survival.

The Imperium doesn't. The Imperium will gladly slaughter any alien, even if they're completely harmless. Humanity genuinely believes that it has a God-given right to govern every planet within the Galaxy, and that no other species has the right to live.

The Eldar, do not. They feel a special fondness for the Tau, and go out of their way to not attack them. They have no problem leaving human colonies alone, even vulnerable ones that they could destroy and get away with impunity, so long as that colony doesn't end up costing Eldar lives sometime in the future. And in the Horus Hersey, the Eldar trusted Humanity and initially didn't believe that they were all bad, up until the point where the Imperium slaughtered the Eldar every time they tried to warn them about Horus' treachery.

The Eldar's xenophobia and the Imperium's xenophobia aren't comparable in the slightest.

I should point out that the reason the IOM attacked the eldar during the HH, was because the Flugrim (who had already turned to chaos). Had attacked the Eldar (who didn't know that he had turned at the time), and the Eldar responded by attacking the IOM.

They gave birth to a Chaos god, and before the split of Dark Eldar & Eldar it was common for Eldar to torture for fun.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Fall_of_the_Eldar

"Eldar technology had advanced so far by the height of their empire that little or no work was required by individual Eldar. As a result, at some point around the 24th or 25th Millennium, groups of Eldar began forming groups known as Pleasure Cults dedicated to the pursuit of experiencing every sensation, pleasurable or painful, that life had to offer. As the Eldar's emotions are often more powerful than those experienced by Mankind, they were capable of the dedicated pursuit of sensation in a way that even the most sybaritic members of the human race would find difficult to comprehend. These pursuits became more extreme, hedonistic and depraved as time went on. Torture and murder came to be seen as art forms every bit as worthy as poetry, music and painting. The Eldar were extremely long-lived (even immortal before the Curse of the Nightbringer), never suffered from senility or disease, and their superior intellects, deep emotional resonance and potent psychic powers allowed them to perfect their skills to a degree far beyond that of even the most talented humans. The Eldar were able to devise cunning new ways of torturing and killing their fellows at rates never imagined.

Government within the Eldar empire soon collapsed and the degeneration of their homeworlds and colonies into utter depravity continued unimpeded. As the pursuit of ever more extreme experiences reached its height, death reigned in the streets of Eldar cities, hunter and hunted each being part of a twisted ritual of destruction which consumed millions of lives. Some Eldar were able to see that their now-corrupt society was destroying itself, and fled in disgust; these refugees would settle in the distant planetary colonies of their empire and would later be known as the Exodites."

That is a huge red herring logical fallacy.

Eldar creating Slannesh ten thousand years before WH40K takes place has nothing to do with your weird belief that the Eldar are more racist and xenophobic than the Imperium of Man. Especially when you consider that the Craftworld and Exodite Eldar were specifically the Eldar who had rebelled against the society that had created Slaanesh and tried to flee.

BlaxicanX wrote:

Makarov wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:But that's the point. Eldar sacrifice other races for their own survival.

The Imperium doesn't. The Imperium will gladly slaughter any alien, even if they're completely harmless. Humanity genuinely believes that it has a God-given right to govern every planet within the Galaxy, and that no other species has the right to live.

The Eldar, do not. They feel a special fondness for the Tau, and go out of their way to not attack them. They have no problem leaving human colonies alone, even vulnerable ones that they could destroy and get away with impunity, so long as that colony doesn't end up costing Eldar lives sometime in the future. And in the Horus Hersey, the Eldar trusted Humanity and initially didn't believe that they were all bad, up until the point where the Imperium slaughtered the Eldar every time they tried to warn them about Horus' treachery.

The Eldar's xenophobia and the Imperium's xenophobia aren't comparable in the slightest.

I should point out that the reason the IOM attacked the eldar during the HH, was because the Flugrim (who had already turned to chaos). Had attacked the Eldar (who didn't know that he had turned at the time), and the Eldar responded by attacking the IOM.

They gave birth to a Chaos god, and before the split of Dark Eldar & Eldar it was common for Eldar to torture for fun.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Fall_of_the_Eldar


"Eldar technology had advanced so far by the height of their empire that little or no work was required by individual Eldar. As a result, at some point around the 24th or 25th Millennium, groups of Eldar began forming groups known as Pleasure Cults dedicated to the pursuit of experiencing every sensation, pleasurable or painful, that life had to offer. As the Eldar's emotions are often more powerful than those experienced by Mankind, they were capable of the dedicated pursuit of sensation in a way that even the most sybaritic members of the human race would find difficult to comprehend. These pursuits became more extreme, hedonistic and depraved as time went on. Torture and murder came to be seen as art forms every bit as worthy as poetry, music and painting. The Eldar were extremely long-lived (even immortal before the Curse of the Nightbringer), never suffered from senility or disease, and their superior intellects, deep emotional resonance and potent psychic powers allowed them to perfect their skills to a degree far beyond that of even the most talented humans. The Eldar were able to devise cunning new ways of torturing and killing their fellows at rates never imagined.

Government within the Eldar empire soon collapsed and the degeneration of their homeworlds and colonies into utter depravity continued unimpeded. As the pursuit of ever more extreme experiences reached its height, death reigned in the streets of Eldar cities, hunter and hunted each being part of a twisted ritual of destruction which consumed millions of lives. Some Eldar were able to see that their now-corrupt society was destroying itself, and fled in disgust; these refugees would settle in the distant planetary colonies of their empire and would later be known as the Exodites."

That is a huge red herring logical fallacy.

Eldar creating Slannesh ten thousand years before WH40K takes place has nothing to do with your weird belief that the Eldar are more racist and xenophobic than the Imperium of Man. Especially when you consider that the Craftworld and Exodite Eldar were specifically the Eldar who had rebelled against the society that had created Slaanesh and tried to flee.

-Actually it does the Eldar see humanity as a cattle, or a play thing. Just a bug to be squished nothing more.Which its why it was common of them to torture (before the split) them. They also still did it before the split.

-Look at the imperial infantryman´s primer. A lot of stubborn arrogance in regard of "weak" races. Then hear the ramblings of the eldar. They talk about humans and use the word monkey, the like to think of the human empire as a bunch of anthromorph, furry beings that throw feces at each other. Its all prejudice and arrogance.

-Also in regards to the sacrifice other races for their own good, how is that any different that what the Imperium does. They will often kill of the the race so that they have access to planet, or eliminate a perceived (it may or may not be real). Is that any different than sacrificing a lesser race for there advantage. You could be at total peace with the Eldar and one day a far seer says that in the future something having to do with man will cause the deaths of many eldar or cause something that doesn't favor them. (Alot of things) And start doing all kinds of mysterious things with no real motive to be seen.

Also if want to continue this topic we should probably start a separate thread as we are currently hijacking this one. I would be more than happy to debate you there.



Back on topic. In "Fear the Alien" there is a short story where the Imperium loses to the Tau.

-Look at the imperial infantryman´s primer. A lot of stubborn arrogance in regard of "weak" races. Then hear the ramblings of the eldar. They talk about humans and use the word monkey, the like to think of the human empire as a bunch of anthromorph, furry beings that throw feces at each other. Its all prejudice and arrogance.

They don't call humans "monkeys", the word the Eldar use is mon keigh which, yes, is a joke from the GW writers, but not a joke in-universe.

The Imperium loses in a lot of the Imperial Armory books, or when they do win, it's a Pyrrhic Victory.

It sells better really. Everyone mainly wants to see the "good guys" win or make some huge noble sacrifice at the end saving the world for everyone.

Its rare that the "bad guys" ever win, even in most horror movies the bad guys will lose at the end. But they'll always come back.

the good guys are often defined by the bad guys they face.

To answer the OPs question:

1. It is incredibly difficult to portray truly alien protagonists, while being equally unbelievable when the "alien" is merely a reskinned human.
2. Like identifies with like. People want their own faction to win, and we are all human.

and most importantly
3. Do they really win? Is victory over the alien through forfeit of our humanity really a victory?

I bought a copy of the Alaitoc Craftworld edition of the 40k 6th Ed rulebook (one of my friends is an apprentice Farseer and gets me stuff from his local gaming club). There's a lot more emphasis on the Eldar in my book (though weirdly hardly any mention of Dark Eldar) and some of the xeno stats are a bit better than in the planet Earth edition (Warlocks have BS 10). Most of the fluff focuses on victories over Tyranids/Slaanesh and there's a whole story about Khaine in the middle plus a pull-out double-page spread of Jain-Zar wearing only her helmet and some strategically-placed human skulls.

I'd post scans but I gave it back because I wanted to look up Space Marine fluff and my copy just listed Chapters by colour with hardly any information, e.g. "the Red ones with pale faces and fangs", "the hairy grey ones who squish in a funny way", "the Blue ones that twitch when you impale them with a Halequin's Kiss", or "the female ones who wear robes under their armour and shout lots". Imperial Guard only appear in the terrain section as one of the forest types.