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So, I'm still considering all this, but I'm not quite sold on the bare-bones guard squads. Weapon upgrades are the most efficient way of increasing a squad's killing power, and if I'm on the verge of dumping my HWSs, that would make it all the more critical that I have heavy weapons in my PISs.

Offense in the game of 40k means being able to deliver more killing power faster (whereas defense is applying killing power later, but better). In a world without properly hidden upgrades, I dont' see how the killing power is going to necessarily survive a cross-field charge. The offensive capabilities, then, would come from heavy weapons, rather than specials (which has always been true), and not with close combat anymore.

I certainly want to play aggressively, but I'm not all that keen on worthless suicide charges. I want my suicide charges to actually do something...

You have two Platoons, right? Would it be worth bringing up to 4 SWSs with Flamers? SWS squads are cheap, scoring, and actually sort of accomplish one of your goals of force concentration. Three lasgunners is enough that it will take more than a vehicle's stormbolter to drop the squad's firepower. You could have a skirmish line of these SWSs. They would be easy to spread out due to small squad size, and they provide a pretty dirty speed bump for assault forces. Even against shooting, they're 50/6 points per wound (8.33) as opposed to a regular infantry squad at 70/10 points per wound (7). It's worse, but it's not so much worse, and perhaps has an overall positive of being much better against template weapons. Their small size and lower leadership would also pretty much guarantee any assaulters would kill them on the assault turn.

Hmm, that's an interesting idea, actually.

I used to run SWSs and run my PCSs as SWSs, but they always got just horribly killed before they ever made it into range. You'd think, given all my complaining, that this exact problem would be worse.

Perhaps, and maybe this is what moustaffa was alluding to, is that the bullets over bodies equation is still here, but it's changed one of its axes. The point, perhaps, isn't that taking casualties on an SWS reduces the amount of casualties I take on other things, but that taking casualties reduces the time that my opponent has to operate.

If we think of this as a matter of time, rather than as a matter of minis, then SWSs would, in fact, make sense. As you say, for the price of a single HWS, I can get 2 SWSs.

... if only flamers actually ever did anything...

Hmm...

Ailaros wrote:Hmm, that's an interesting idea, actually.

I used to run SWSs and run my PCSs as SWSs, but they always got just horribly killed before they ever made it into range. You'd think, given all my complaining, that this exact problem would be worse.

Perhaps, and maybe this is what moustaffa was alluding to, is that the bullets over bodies equation is still here, but it's changed one of its axes. The point, perhaps, isn't that taking casualties on an SWS reduces the amount of casualties I take on other things, but that taking casualties reduces the time that my opponent has to operate.

If we think of this as a matter of time, rather than as a matter of minis, then SWSs would, in fact, make sense. As you say, for the price of a single HWS, I can get 2 SWSs.

... if only flamers actually ever did anything...

Hmm...

Yep, you have to think, when the enemy has to shoot a unit, unless its longfangs, they can't split their fire. If he has a rhino with a tac squad in it and he fires at your SWS, whoop de doo, he spent a 150pts of his army to kill a 50pt unit. As for the barebones infantry squad, don't think of it as 1 squad in a vacuum. Think of 7, all lined up across your deployment, all moving up as seperate squads. Behind those are your SWS's, your PCS's, your vets, your CCS's, your HWS's, your leman russes, etc. You literally overwhelm their ability to kill everything they need to in a single turn. It really screws over assault units as well, since they either shoot at the 10 man unit blocking their way, and screw their assault on the tank, or have to commit another unit to clear their path, probably opening the shooting unit up to a counterattack from some of your other units on the other side of the board. Heck, in one game, my opponent was forced to ignore marbo, who was literally 3 inches away from his longfangs, just to try and get a shot on side armor of one of my russes, because he knew that was the only shot he'd get.

The space wolf player I fought against was so desperate to take out my screening infantry he was running his runepriests into single combat with line squads in a vain hope to try and clear a path for his objective grabbers. One razorback even tried to tankshock through a 60pt melta squad, only to explode and pin the squad inside it. This kind of play requires extremely aggressive tendencies, and you have to have no second thoughts of sending units to their obvious death. But then you watch longfangs unloading on a PCS with lascannons just to try and make a hole through two buildings, or a Dreadnaught helplessly trying to glance a leman russ across the board to death just because there's no good targets for it to shoot, and you realize that even though your screen is taking a hit, your opponent is completely overwhelmed.

Essentially, give him literally so many targets, that no matter what he shoots and no matter what order he shoots them in, he is still screwed. He can focus down the melta screen, but now he's left all your HWS's and russes unharmed, free to open up next turn unhindered. He can try and kill your command elements, but now he hasn't killed any of your damage dealers at all. He can go for the tanks, but by the time he's focused them down, the infantry is already on top of him or entrenched on the midfield objectives. Or, in the best scenario, he tries to do a bit of damage to all of them, and ultimately hurts none of them. And then he still has to think about all the stormtroopers and marbo that are showing up next turn...

Hey I got a question. Since he took Mephy and an eldar Farseer did he take Runes of Warding? The eldar psychic power that causes enemies to roll 3d6 for psychic leadership? Becasue if he did then Mephy should have rolled 3d6 since they aren't battle brothers. Only Allies of Convenience, which "Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy
units"

If he did roll 3d6, then I must have missed it.

I... don't know...

Ailaros wrote:I... don't know...

I'd find out, it could have drastically changed the game, since he might not have got his str 10 power off. Or any of the wings shenanigans...

It wouldn't be just not getting those powers off, it would be more likely than not taking a wound in the process due to Perils.