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Frazzled is my hero.
i really think the US needs to stop playing World Police because its a waste of our troops lives.
i really think unless its something major we should stay the f out of everyone's problems. they could really fix the debt issues if they stopped handing out tax payer's money to everyone with a problem.
we could use our troops at home for some good like the war on drugs, weapons and human trafficing or.. illegal immigrants.
they could build Deathklaat's Great Wall of Mexico and do much more good with no loss of life.

its like all these lets send aid to X country thats starving, we have enough people in our own country that are homeless and starving we should care for them first.
i really think we should become a BIT like Germany before WWII, you know that nationalism. Pride in America, buy American goods, make American jobs, stop making America the laughing stock of Earth.

Jihadin wrote:LOL it might happen when the automatic defense cuts go into play.

I may be the only one hoping "the great fiscal cliff" actually occurs and forces cuts. Bring our Men and Women home. Call us if the aliens attack, else leave a message after the beep.

Deathklaat wrote:
i really think we should become a BIT like Germany before WWII, you know that nationalism. Pride in America, buy American goods, make American jobs, stop making America the laughing stock of Earth.

Don't you have 'Buy American!" slogans and all already? At least, that's what my cousin tells me...

Frazz you forgot we're all up in Africa too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Enduring_Freedom

Ironic name...considering the 'freedom' you protect only means to benefit the US, and only in the short-term too. Not to mention all the lives lost doesn't really justify anything, seeing as your leaders are just sowing the seeds of future conflict.

Tadashi wrote:More US politicians should be like you...you actually understand the phrase "Leave well enough alone."

I said this in an earlier thread.
If presidents had to lead the army on the ground, they would be less willing to throw our soldiers into harms way.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:Frazz you forgot we're all up in Africa too.

These were just in my head and major force movements not "advisory" or other roles (that pretty much puts us in every country outside of China I think). Remember I'm a cold war guy and not up on the latest hep cat activities.

Frazzled wrote:Do like Europe and Japan, and how we do now. Buy the oil. Big deal. We can stay involved in international affairs, just not militarily. be like Europe, China, and South America. What a concept.

As a side note : We buy the majority of our oil from Canada.

We have also vastly increased our own oil production over the past few years and are now exporting oil.
Yes, you may think that odd, but we are contractually obliged to buy oil from Canada over a period of years at a set price. Until that contract expires, we have an excess of oil, hence we are exporting some to other countries.

labmouse42 wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Do like Europe and Japan, and how we do now. Buy the oil. Big deal. We can stay involved in international affairs, just not militarily. be like Europe, China, and South America. What a concept.

As a side note : We buy the majority of our oil from Canada.

We have also vastly increased our own oil production over the past few years and are now exporting oil.
Yes, you may think that odd, but we are contractually obliged to buy oil from Canada over a period of years at a set price. Until that contract expires, we have an excess of oil, hence we are exporting some to other countries.

Then what's with all the trouble in the Middle East? Apart from terrorists and oil there's nothing there for you.

Deathklaat wrote:i really think the US needs to stop playing World Police because its a waste of our troops lives.

I agree.
I would also let us reduce our military budget by 20%+ or so, which would allow us to reduce national debt.

Deathklaat wrote:we could use our troops at home for some good like the war on drugs, weapons and human trafficing or.. illegal immigrants.

Or we could use that 20% savings to reduce college costs for all citizens better educated, allowing everyone who wants one to get a college degree. This would increase the skillset of our labor market.

Deathklaat wrote:Pride in America, buy American goods, make American jobs, stop making America the laughing stock of Earth.

That does not work. As a society the US has moved from a production based economy to a service based economy.

Let me put it in this way. Other countries are working in factories to make us shiny ipods and happy meal toys to trade with us. In return we fix their computers or give them designs for cutting edge technology. The US winds up with more wealth (defined as physical goods) entering the country than leaving it.

I mentioned education earlier, because the best way to say on the pinnacle of this service based economy is to be the smartest, most inventive, more competitive country in the world.


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Tadashi wrote:Then what's with all the trouble in the Middle East? Apart from terrorists and oil there's nothing there for you.

We do get 20% of our oil from the middle east, so OPEC does have some control over our gas prices.

Why do we care about it so much? Honestly I don't know. Maybe Israel?

To allot of the world the US is too protectionist as it is. It wants to meddle in others business, but only when it is for its own good. The US as a country seems to lack a deal of altruism and giving. It's like the annoying brother that only gives you a gift in the hope that you will buy them a better gift.

The US needs to stop dropping it's size 10's in everything, but it cannot withdraw from the global economy and become isolationist or (more) protectionist. It is bad enough as it is. Look at where the tariffs on steel and cars has got US heavy industry. A poor product (although this is now improving as car makers are realizing that they need to compete beyond the US now).

We care because oil is a fungible commodity. A supply disruption in one locale quickly affects the prices worlwide.

Frazzled wrote:
Please name five countries off the top of your head where US troops haven't been or currently have troops at in the last five years?

In the last five years? That's easy. Iran, North Korea, China, Russia, Venezuela. There are quite a few more though, especially in Africa and South America.

Frazzled wrote:
Are we in a better place?

Yes.

Frazzled wrote:We care because oil is a fungible commodity. A supply disruption in one locale quickly affects the prices worlwide.

Exactly.

Frazzled wrote:
Indeed before WWII we were quite isolationist. We also didn't have troops across the globe.

Only if you have a very narrow definition of "isolationist". Isolationist countries generally don't occupy themselves with expanding their territorial holdings.

Jihadin wrote:
No longer be the major supporter of any UN actions.

We've never been the major supporter of any UN action. When the US is the major player in the conflict it has always been a US action first, and a UN action second.

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Please name five countries off the top of your head where US troops haven't been or currently have troops at in the last five years?

In the last five years? That's easy. Iran, North Korea, China, Russia, Venezuela. There are quite a few more though, especially in Africa and South America.

We had training exercises with Russia and China at various times. Also I'm sure we have a few troops in Iran right now.

Frazzled wrote:
Are we in a better place?

Yes.

How are we better than before WWII?

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Please name five countries off the top of your head where US troops haven't been or currently have troops at in the last five years?

In the last five years? That's easy. Iran, North Korea, China, Russia, Venezuela. There are quite a few more though, especially in Africa and South America.

There are around fifty thousand (AFAIK) American troops along the Korean DMZ, not counting vehicles and aircraft, not to mention around a million land mines, which are supposed to be illegal but are far too many (or useful) to remove. And there was that drone that got hacked and was made to land in Iran after being caught 'trespassing' or to be more blunt, spying. Russia, well, America and NATO's efforts to extend their influence into Eastern Europe, traditionally a Russian sphere-of-influence, could count, and technically Taiwan is a renegade Chinese province (as far as the PRC is concerned). America is taking huge risks baiting the Dragon and the Bear in the Middle East - you've already neutralized one of their allies in Libya, and I doubt they'll let you have Iran or Syria. TBH, if you can have allies, why can't Russia or China have any of their own? You might want them to be your allies, but they don't like you all that much.

Nixon put the US on its highest state of nuclear alert since WWII in reponse to the USSR's threat to get involved in one of the Israel vs. the Middle East wars (I think its the 1973 war).

Frazzled wrote:
We had training exercises with Russia and China at various times.

A training exercise is not the same thing as a permanent deployment. Even if we eliminated all components of our overseas physical plant, we would still have training exercises with foreign nations.

Frazzled wrote:
How are we better than before WWII?

We are, unequivocally, the greatest military power in the world. We have the ability to project force across the globe in order to insure our strategic interests (granted, this can be misused ala Iraq). And, if we're speaking more generally, median and mean real income have nearly doubled. Granted, this isn't solely the result of our military physical plant, but you also can't ignore the role it has played in securing our economic prosperity.

By virtually every measure, from relative international power to quality of life, the US is better off now than it was before WWII.

Frazzled wrote:Nixon put the US on its highest state of nuclear alert since WWII in reponse to the USSR's threat to get involved in one of the Israel vs. the Middle East wars (I think its the 1973 war).

I'm with Israel...but Russia and China won't back down on Syria or Iran. And America no longer has the resources for a full-scale war - it seems to me you've drained your coffers with 'police actions', and further military actions in the Middle East would probably be very unpopular. And Europe is in no state to support America either, and Japan is in no mood for the Middle East, considering the growing threat from China.

Deathklaat wrote:Frazzled is my hero.
i really think the US needs to stop playing World Police because its a waste of our troops lives.
i really think unless its something major we should stay the f out of everyone's problems. they could really fix the debt issues if they stopped handing out tax payer's money to everyone with a problem.
we could use our troops at home for some good like the war on drugs, weapons and human trafficing or.. illegal immigrants.
they could build Deathklaat's Great Wall of Mexico and do much more good with no loss of life.

its like all these lets send aid to X country thats starving, we have enough people in our own country that are homeless and starving we should care for them first.
i really think we should become a BIT like Germany before WWII, you know that nationalism. Pride in America, buy American goods, make American jobs, stop making America the laughing stock of Earth.

Frazzled wanted to nuke the middleast into oblivion in 2010. You should pick your heroes better.

dogma wrote:

We are, unequivocally, the greatest military power in the world. We have the ability to project force across the globe in order to insure our strategic interests (granted, this can be misused ala Iraq). And, if we're speaking more generally, median and mean real income have nearly doubled. Granted, this isn't solely the result of our military physical plant, but you also can't ignore the role it has played in securing our economic prosperity.

By virtually every measure, from relative international power to quality of life, the US is better off now than it was before WWII.

Look again: your government has the biggest debt in the world, social issues are rife, your economy is faltering, and your military is being bled white by 'police actions'.

"A great civilization cannot be destroyed from without unless it destroys itself from within."

I'm not saying other countries don't have similar problems (well, Japan doesn't really have that much debt or a military to be bled white) but America is the linchpin of the modern world - if you collapse now, you'll drag the rest of us down with you. Think about that before voting during the elections.

Tadashi wrote:
There are around fifty thousand (AFAIK) American troops along the Korean DMZ, not counting vehicles and aircraft, not to mention around a million land mines, which are supposed to be illegal but are far too many (or useful) to remove.

That 's nice, but the DMZ is not a part of North Korea.

Tadashi wrote:
And there was that drone that got hacked and was made to land in Iran after being caught 'trespassing' or to be more blunt, spying.

Hardly a soldier.

Tadashi wrote:
Russia, well, America and NATO's efforts to extend their influence into Eastern Europe, traditionally a Russian sphere-of-influence, could count, and technically Taiwan is a renegade Chinese province (as far as the PRC is concerned).

There's a difference between doing things that violate the diplomatic expectations of a given country, and actually having troops in those countries.

Tadashi wrote:
TBH, if you can have allies, why can't Russia or China have any of their own?

Why should we allow them to? I mean, Russia is virtually a non-issue, their only real sources of political capital are their nuclear stockpile, and role in supplying natural gas to Europe. China is a greater concern, but I would hardly count Libya as a great ally of theirs, when they espouse a doctrine of nonintervention it tends to be grounded more in their standard line regarding domestic human rights abuses.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Deathklaat wrote:Frazzled is my hero.
i really think the US needs to stop playing World Police because its a waste of our troops lives.
i really think unless its something major we should stay the f out of everyone's problems. they could really fix the debt issues if they stopped handing out tax payer's money to everyone with a problem.
we could use our troops at home for some good like the war on drugs, weapons and human trafficing or.. illegal immigrants.
they could build Deathklaat's Great Wall of Mexico and do much more good with no loss of life.

its like all these lets send aid to X country thats starving, we have enough people in our own country that are homeless and starving we should care for them first.
i really think we should become a BIT like Germany before WWII, you know that nationalism. Pride in America, buy American goods, make American jobs, stop making America the laughing stock of Earth.

Frazzled wanted to nuke the middleast into oblivion in 2010. You should pick your heroes better.

I could get behind that policy. Give me a year to register patents on radiation proof mobile oil rigs

Tadashi wrote:
Look again: your government has the biggest debt in the world, social issues are rife, your economy is faltering, and your military is being bled white by 'police actions'.

Do you not know what the US was like before WWII?

Racial segregation was the norm in many parts of the country, as was overtly violent racism. The economy was in abysmal shape, being at the tail end of the Great Depression. There was no significant standing army, with our military power largely being a matter of manufacturing potential.

About the only thing you could claim as a favorable comparison would be our pre-WWII trade balance.

dogma wrote:

Why should we allow them to? I mean, Russia is virtually a non-issue, their only real sources of political capital are their nuclear stockpile, and role in supplying natural gas to Europe. China is a greater concern, but I would hardly count Libya as a great ally of theirs, when they espouse a doctrine of nonintervention it tends to be grounded more in their standard line regarding domestic human rights abuses.

I hardly think 6000 or more nukes a non-issue, or for that matter hidden stockpiles of heavy armor and other equipment, seeing as Russians don't exactly think badly of attrition/overwhelming enemies with numbers.

If you don't allow them to, then don't expect them to let you encroach on their spheres of influence either.

dogma wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
Look again: your government has the biggest debt in the world, social issues are rife, your economy is faltering, and your military is being bled white by 'police actions'.

Do you not know what the US was like before WWII?

Racial segregation was the norm in many parts of the country, as was overtly violent racism. The economy was in abysmal shape, being at the tail end of the Great Depression. There was no significant standing army, with our military power largely being a matter of manufacturing potential.

About the only thing you could claim as a favorable comparison would be our pre-WWII trade balance.

Still doesn't change the fact if you crumble/collapse now you'll bring an end to us all.

A training exercise is not the same thing as a permanent deployment. Even if we eliminated all components of our overseas physical plant, we would still have training exercises with foreign nations.

***You’re right. Of course that wasn’t my statement either, so you’re er wrong to.

We are, unequivocally, the greatest military power in the world.

***And? Has it made the US more safe? Has it made US citizens abroad more safe?

We have the ability to project force across the

***And? Has it made the US more safe? Has it made US citizens abroad more safe?

And, if we're speaking more generally, median and mean real income have nearly doubled.

***I’d put good money that our GDP growth rates after 1955 (once Europe started to recover) are lower than the 19th century.

Granted, this isn't solely the result of our military physical plant, but you also can't ignore the role it has played in securing our economic prosperity.

Sure you can. Explain to me how the Korean War helped US business? How did the Vietnam war help the economy? oh lookey we had a nice recession. Please prove to me your tenuous connection that the Iraq War helped the US economy?




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ShumaGorath wrote:

Deathklaat wrote:Frazzled is my hero.
i really think the US needs to stop playing World Police because its a waste of our troops lives.
i really think unless its something major we should stay the f out of everyone's problems. they could really fix the debt issues if they stopped handing out tax payer's money to everyone with a problem.
we could use our troops at home for some good like the war on drugs, weapons and human trafficing or.. illegal immigrants.
they could build Deathklaat's Great Wall of Mexico and do much more good with no loss of life.

its like all these lets send aid to X country thats starving, we have enough people in our own country that are homeless and starving we should care for them first.
i really think we should become a BIT like Germany before WWII, you know that nationalism. Pride in America, buy American goods, make American jobs, stop making America the laughing stock of Earth.

Frazzled wanted to nuke the middleast into oblivion in 2010. You should pick your heroes better.

No just portions of Afghanistan and in 2002*. Please get your facts together. As the immortal bard once said: "put down the bong pipe and keep up!"

*I'd say Leichtenstein too but they developed their RES in the 1980s are are invulnerable (Rediculously Evil Shield)

Tadashi wrote:
I hardly think 6000 or more nukes a non-issue, or for that matter hidden stockpiles of heavy armor and other equipment, seeing as Russians don't exactly think badly of attrition/overwhelming enemies with numbers.

Note how I said "...their only real sources of political capital are their nuclear stockpile..."? But even then, nuclear weapons are relatively minor concern when they in the possession of established states as they aren't relevant in any practically feasible conflict.

As for their platform stockpiles, they aren't hidden. Data on the Russian military is readily available, and it isn't especially promising for them; hence all the recent noise they've made about attempting to modernize many of their weapons platforms.

Tadashi wrote:
If you don't allow them to, then don't expect them to let you encroach on their spheres of influence either.

Que?

By definition taking offense to our dealings with their allies is a failure to allow us to encroach on their spheres of influence. Generally, states don't allow anyone to encroach on their spheres of infuence.

Frazzled wrote:
Sure you can. Explain to me how the Korean War helped US business? How did the Vietnam war help the economy? oh lookey we had a nice recession. Please prove to me your tenuous connection that the Iraq War helped the US economy?

It sure helped the Japanese Empire's economy recover and achieve a dominant position...thank you for your patronage.

dogma wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
I hardly think 6000 or more nukes a non-issue, or for that matter hidden stockpiles of heavy armor and other equipment, seeing as Russians don't exactly think badly of attrition/overwhelming enemies with numbers.

Note how I said "...their only real sources of political capital are their nuclear stockpile..."? But even then, nuclear weapons are relatively minor concern when they in the possession of established states as they aren't relevant in any practically feasible conflict.

Minor?

I'll be sure to remember that when I'm sitting in an environmentally-sealed bunker due to a nuclear winter...

Do you not know what the US was like before WWII?

***Much like now. Lots of good and lots of bad.

Racial segregation was the norm in many parts of the country, as was overtly violent racism.

*And our wars in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Korea, Afghanistan. Iraq, Kuwait, and actions in Somalia helped that not a whit.

The economy was in abysmal shape, being at the tail end of the Great Depression.

This sounds vaguely familiar…

There was no significant standing army, with our military power largely being a matter of manufacturing potential.

If you have no enemies save the great evil that is Vancouver and are protected a strong Navy you didn’t need one. The UK didn’t have one either.

About the only thing you could claim as a favorable comparison would be our pre-WWII trade balance.

You mean back when we could make more than the rest of the world combined, kind of like China now?
Also, again our wars in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Korea, Afghanistan. Iraq, Kuwait, and actions in Somalia helped that not a whit.

What level of isolationism are we talking about here?

Purely military? That's a bit extreme, but understandable. But in the end, impossible-- we're gonna need to patrol trade routes for example, so our navy will not be able to be isolationist-- it'll have to kill some pirates and all that. But if you mean no more direct, troops on the ground interventions? I can probably get behind that I suppose.



Trade isolationism? That would be unbelievably stupid.

Remember boys, thanks to the Cold War, we're one "oops" away from nuclear armageddon. The only difference is that now we have nukes from China and North Korea pointed at us (ok trying to point at us NK still sucks).

When NY is vapororized by some smuggled out old USSR nuke by terrorists or Irantell me about how all that internationalism is good for the US.