Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

rigeld2 wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
The Third bullet point which you are referencing tells us that you must take a cover save. I am saying that cover saves as written in the BRB in both section (page 17 and page 74-75) deny us the ability to use cover saves. Since there is no firer there is no cover to be had.....

Wrong.
Page 75 says that obscured vehicles must take cover saves against pen/glancing hits.
The vehicle is obscured (by the definition in KFF). The vehicle takes a pen/glancing hit.
Page 75 does not limit the cover save to only shooting - you're assuming that based on the first bullet point.

Wrong Wrong Wrong see I can do that as well and in multiples!

How are you determining what obscured means? I ask this because you are claiming a cover/obscured save. Now it is important to fully understand, you need permission to use obscured/cover saves, where do you find out how you can use such saves. OH look page 74-75. You cannot simply skip over a part of the rule and stand shouting from the mountain you have evidence. You sir are putting the cart before the horse, and forgetting that you must follow ALL of the rules for vehicles and cover-obscured targets. You skipping the first makes your arguement, put the first bullet point in there and poof it goes away.

You may not use cover saves unless you are given specific allowance to do so in this case a firing model. The mandatory part is taken out by how do you determine what a cover/obscured save is and how we determine it. No firer no cover/obscured. If you have no save you cannot claim and take the save. If you have no save you cannot take a mandatory roll for a save. Or if you did you succed on a 7+ on a 6 sided die..... PROFIT!!!!

So models cannot take Cover Saves against Mawloc or Doom's Spirit Leech? Note to self add more Mawlocs to army. Doom already does enough damage for his point cost

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
The Third bullet point which you are referencing tells us that you must take a cover save. I am saying that cover saves as written in the BRB in both section (page 17 and page 74-75) deny us the ability to use cover saves. Since there is no firer there is no cover to be had.....

Wrong.
Page 75 says that obscured vehicles must take cover saves against pen/glancing hits.
The vehicle is obscured (by the definition in KFF). The vehicle takes a pen/glancing hit.
Page 75 does not limit the cover save to only shooting - you're assuming that based on the first bullet point.

Wrong Wrong Wrong see I can do that as well and in multiples!

How are you determining what obscured means?

It doesn't matter what obscured means - I am obscured (because of the KFF) and an obscured vehicle must take the save.

You skipping the first makes your arguement, put the first bullet point in there and poof it goes away.

No, the first bullet point is irrelevant - it tells me how to determine if I'm obscured. I already am obscured.

You may not use cover saves unless you are given specific allowance to do so in this case a firing model.

Page 75 disagrees. All I need is to be obscured and suffer the hit.

The mandatory part is taken out by how do you determine what a cover/obscured save is and how we determine it. No firer no cover/obscured. If you have no save you cannot claim and take the save. If you have no save you cannot take a mandatory roll for a save. Or if you did you succed on a 7+ on a 6 sided die..... PROFIT!!!!

You keep saying "No firer no cover/obscured." except that's not what the KFF says.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:
Doom already does enough damage for his point cost

Bah, not for me. Past few times every unit has passed every leadership test - even the 2 tries against a unit of 20 hormagaunts.

Last game, mine killed off two 5 man groups of Wraithguards with Spiritseers. Then promptly failed the save for 4 ID wounds from the third group.

Ringeld what does the KFF say exactly? I want the rule to see. Does it tell you that you take saves against everything?

Plus this is a special rule applying the glancing penetrating hit, not an attack.

Last time I checked wasnt there an FAQ about mawloc and spirit leech?

It doesn't matter what obscured means - I am obscured (because of the KFF) and an obscured vehicle must take the save.


You skipping the first makes your arguement, put the first bullet point in there and poof it goes away.

No, the first bullet point is irrelevant - it tells me how to determine if I'm obscured. I already am obscured.

This exchange I find funny. It also explains what obscured means. You say it doesnt matter what obscured means, and I am pointing to a rule that explictly tells you what it means. But to you it doesn't matter. It is very relevant as you have to know in what instances you are allowed to claim this rule. So again please give me the a KFF rule from the ork codex and I will read what it has to say. If it does not detail anything other then vehicles count as obscured you would reference the BRB for what obscured means.............

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
Ringeld what does the KFF say exactly? I want the rule to see. Does it tell you that you take saves against everything?

Iirc it makes all vehicles within 6" count as obscured. Which means, according to the rules, yes you get saves vs everything that doesn't deny cover.

Plus this is a special rule applying the glancing penetrating hit, not an attack.

Irrelevant.

Last time I checked wasnt there an FAQ about mawloc and spirit leech?

Yes. Not that there needed to be, but they explicitly allow cover saves against them. According to your interpretation, it wouldn't be possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
So again please give me the a KFF rule from the ork codex and I will read what it has to say. If it does not detail anything other then vehicles count as obscured you would reference the BRB for what obscured means.............

Obscured means I must make cover saves vs hits. As I've shown.
The first bullet point says how to be obscured - but we already know I am due to the KFF.


A normal model takes a cover save against any wound, correct? And a vehicle must take cover saves, just like a non-vehicle model as page 75 says.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
Ringeld what does the KFF say exactly? I want the rule to see. Does it tell you that you take saves against everything?

The full rule is now found in the Ork FAQ, not the Codex (they only changed it slightly to define the level of save granted).

Ork FAQ wrote:A Kustom Force Field gives all units within 6" of the Mek a 5+ cover save. Friendly vehicles within 6" count as being obscured and have a 5+ cover save.

rigeld2 wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
Ringeld what does the KFF say exactly? I want the rule to see. Does it tell you that you take saves against everything?

Iirc it makes all vehicles within 6" count as obscured. Which means, according to the rules, yes you get saves vs everything that doesn't deny cover.

Plus this is a special rule applying the glancing penetrating hit, not an attack.

Irrelevant.

Last time I checked wasnt there an FAQ about mawloc and spirit leech?

Yes. Not that there needed to be, but they explicitly allow cover saves against them. According to your interpretation, it wouldn't be possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
So again please give me the a KFF rule from the ork codex and I will read what it has to say. If it does not detail anything other then vehicles count as obscured you would reference the BRB for what obscured means.............

Obscured means I must make cover saves vs hits. As I've shown.
The first bullet point says how to be obscured - but we already know I am due to the KFF.


A normal model takes a cover save against any wound, correct? And a vehicle must take cover saves, just like a non-vehicle model as page 75 says.

Are you reading the same rulebook as me?? Because I could have sworn that obscured meant that the vehicle facing the model is shooting at is 25% covered or more. That there means you need a firer or a unit firing at the vehicle. Unless I am wrong that is not the case in this point. Also the fact that they FAQ means that they allowed in those instances, where before there was a question as to whether or not you could take a cover save, just like now. Futhermore it is consistant in both the regular cover saves section for models, as well as the Vehicle cover saves section you need a firer in order to claim a cover save. You do count as being obscured, but that means nothing to objuration mechanicum as it is not a shooting attack and does not let you check for one. So you are required to prove that you can take your cover save against a non shooting attack with no firer. Not the other way around, permissive rule set tells us what we can do.

KP - you are making a logical fallacy, ie A implyting B meaning B implying A

I you are 25% covered from the firing model you are obscured. This does not mean to be obscured you must be 25% covered from the firing model

A KFF makes you obscured, and grants a 5+ cover save. You do not need to also check to see if you are 25% covered, as you are already obscured.

IT has been proven, you are just clinging to a logical error and coming to a conclusion that is in error because of that

Quick question in regards to flyers claiming the Jink rule though:

1. To claim the Jink cover save a flyer must Evade.
2. The secision to Evade is made "after the enemy rolls To Hit but before armor pen rolls are made" (or something close).
3. Being a Malediction, OM does not require a roll To Hit, just a psychic test (and accompanying DtW).

Can a flyer Evade to claim the Jink cover save againsy OM? If so, when must the decision to Evade be made?