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 Ailaros wrote:
IG fliers are a single thing in the codex. Given that 6th killed power blobs and made chimeras flimsier, I'd hardly say that IG as a whole got a "massive boost".

Sure, Chimeras got flimsier, but so did every other transport. Relative to the metagame as a whole, they're still good, and IG have the best ability to spam other medium tanks to gain target saturation for their transports. Meanwhile the Vendetta may be a single unit, but having them available makes the army a lot more powerful than if they didn't exist. Sure, it sucks to be someone who bought a power blob army, but IG overall are still a top-tier army.

Anyway, to end the tangent, all I'm saying is that "wait a few years and the metagame changes" isn't really a guarantee. Armies like IG can remain top-tier for years at a time with no end in sight, while armies like the Tyranids can start off weak and remain weak with no end in sight. Tau could easily go either way, and there's no way to know until the new codex comes out.

You're just having a needlessly negative view of tau. They're better than you think they are. Dismissing good units literally out of hand doesnt' help this perception.

I'm not dismissing them out of hand, I'm dismissing them because I've played Tau and discovered the hard way that most of the codex sucks (even if the few good units are enough to win). But please, tell me which good unit I'm unfairly dismissing.


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 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Are you referring to the kroot as useless just this edition. or in 5th as well? Just curious because back in 5th our tau player was eaither really lucky with them or very clever, and I'd like to know which . He was very annoying with them. I remember that much, always outflanking them to mess with fire support units.

Useless in 6th. In 5th you had to take them because you needed meatshields, and Kroot were all you had available. In 6th you can take allied IG platoons as much better meatshields if that's what you want, while Kroot lost the ability to outflank and assault weak support units like devastators/HWTs/etc.

(Also, Kroot are 7 points/model. He made a mistake in the cost.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
Se what I mean? That doesn't happen anymore. Pro-tip: Put the controller in the back, he'll be the last to die.

Pro-tip: precise shot, LOS blocking to hit specific models, shooting from another direction. It happens less often than in 5th (when it was almost guaranteed to happen), but it's still a problem.

There you go again. 5th ed. You realize you have a 5+ cover all the time now, regardless of the range to the opponent, for free, right? I suppose being replaced by the same benefit for free does make them "suck" and "too expensive".....but you complain about odd things.

You realize that you used to have a 4+ cover save regardless of the range to the opponent, since Devilfish were never supposed to be within 12"? Now you save a whole five points in exchange for losing 1/3 of your cover save. And it's hardly "free" when the Devilfish is once of the most expensive transports in the game, but has one of the weakest guns and no fire points.

Also, it's nothing to write home about, but a Devil fish can damage a rhino, while the reverse is never true. I'd call them a little too expensive, but the truth is rhinos and chimeras are too cheap.

So? It costs over twice as much as a Rhino, I should hope that I get at least a token chance of eventually glancing a Rhino to death. Now how about instead we compare it to a Chimera, which still costs less and CAN hurt the Devilfish, while being immune to the Devilfish's return fire?

Right. WS 4, Str 4, 2 attack guardsmen, with bolters. And forest ninja skills. For 1 pt more.

Can I have your Tau codex where Kroot are 6 points/model? Because I think mine has a rather serious misprint.

And who cares if they're WS 4/STR 4, they still die to any real assault unit (a tactical squad is not a real assault unit), they still can't take (good) heavy/special weapons, and they still don't get an armor save against shooting. The only thing they're really good at is being meatshields for something more important, and the only thing that matters for that is how many points per model you pay. IOW, bring a platoon if you want meatshields.

I'm sorry, how many AV 13 tanks with a persistent 5+ cover save did you need to reach "saturation" exactly?

More than one (which is why it's called "saturation", not "my cover is awesome"), when you have no other medium or heavy vehicles in your army. Otherwise you just provide a nice target for all those lascannons/missiles/etc on the other side of the table, and AV 13/5+ isn't going to keep you alive when you're the only target to shoot at. And you'd better not bring more than one Hammerhead, since you need Broadsides.

Second Pro-tip: Don't bring the hammerheads for the single rail shot, use them for the blast.

Lol? You mean the same blast that costs IG players 75 points, except that the IG player gets it as a barrage weapon? It's not a terrible option for a secondary weapon, but the idea of taking a Hammerhead to use it as a primary weapon is just laughable.

For the record, I have totally ruled people with Farsight. And it's not a "power weapon" it "ignores armour saves" which means it can take out 2+ saves, key difference. He's not exactly the beatiest beatstick out there but with Str 5, 4 attacks, 4 wounds and invo, he'll kill most characters in his weight class. (and he can still shoot straight) There's a little less need for him now that Tau can take fighty allies, but he can do just fine.

That's nice. If he cost the same as a random powerfist marine captain he wouldn't be terrible, but that's just a pathetic amount of combat ability to get in exchange for 0-1 limits on key units.

What are you worried about the 0-1 selections? You just said all of them suck, except for Broadsides! . Seriously, though, if you're willing to admit broadsides and Hammerheads are best used together, it's not such a big deal.

Because you want more than one unit of Broadsides perhaps?

Man, you have perspective on anything

 Peregrine wrote:

You realize that you used to have a 4+ cover save regardless of the range to the opponent, since Devilfish were never supposed to be within 12"? Now you save a whole five points in exchange for losing 1/3 of your cover save.

You realize that everyone has given up 1/3 of their cover save? That smoke launchers only give a 5+?

I mean, could you whine anymore?

ANd for the record, you're just wrong, anyway, since DFs have always been used for Fish of Fury, tank shocking off objectives, just getting to objectives, generally, so they're actually meant to get closer tot he enemy more often than not. If you were always trying to be 12" away at all times you were doing it wrong. Tau are a medium-long range and mobility army, not a super-long range gunline army like IG.

I don't have time to pick apart everything you've said. Just go play IG, you obviously want to be an IG player, look at your avatar, for Christ's sake. If you are already and IG player, great, leave the Tau advice to people who can hack it.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
You realize that everyone has given up 1/3 of their cover save? That smoke launchers only give a 5+?

The difference is everyone else either has higher AV to survive with reduced cover, or doesn't have to pay for their 5+ cover (free smoke on all those underpriced Imperial vehicles anyone?). Tau vehicles are more expensive than they would be in a modern codex, and they depended on their cover save (or, in 4th, dropping everything to glancing hits) to make up for their lower than average AV. End result: removing disruption pods hurts Tau a lot worse than reducing smoke saves hurts IG.

ANd for the record, you're just wrong, anyway, since DFs have always been used for Fish of Fury, tank shocking off objectives, just getting to objectives, generally, so they're actually meant to get closer tot he enemy more often than not. If you were always trying to be 12" away at all times you were doing it wrong. Tau are a medium-long range and mobility army, not a super-long range gunline army like IG.

Fish of Fury hasn't been good since 4th edition changed the skimmer rules, and you don't want to start moving out from behind your screening units to go claim objectives until your opponent's biggest threats have been neutralized and you have clear space to move into without just getting killed immediately. The result is Devilfish spent a lot of time more than 12" away from anything that wanted to shoot at them, so getting a 5+ cover save at all times doesn't really make up for losing a 4+ cover save on the critical early turns when your opponent's anti-vehicle firepower is strongest.

I don't have time to pick apart everything you've said. Just go play IG, you obviously want to be an IG player, look at your avatar, for Christ's sake. If you are already and IG player, great, leave the Tau advice to people who can hack it.

Where did you get this absurd idea that it's about "can hack it" or not? And how many times do I have to say that Tau are perfectly capable of winning, and that my complaint and reason for calling them weak is their crippling lack of diversity in good units compared to modern codices? I don't know about you, but I think that when a codex starts with fewer units than a modern book and then gets reduced to "Broadsides and fireknives" it's not exactly a healthy state of balance even if the "Broadsides and fireknives" list is winning tournaments.

 Peregrine wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
You realize that everyone has given up 1/3 of their cover save? That smoke launchers only give a 5+?

The difference is everyone else either has higher AV to survive with reduced cover, or doesn't have to pay for their 5+ cover

What? No.

ANd for the record, you're just wrong, anyway, since DFs have always been used for Fish of Fury, tank shocking off objectives, just getting to objectives, generally, so they're actually meant to get closer tot he enemy more often than not. If you were always trying to be 12" away at all times you were doing it wrong. Tau are a medium-long range and mobility army, not a super-long range gunline army like IG.

Fish of Fury hasn't been good since 4th edition changed the skimmer rules, and you don't want to start moving out from behind your screening units to go claim objectives until your opponent's biggest threats have been neutralized and you have clear space to move into without just getting killed immediately. The result is Devilfish spent a lot of time more than 12" away from anything that wanted to shoot at them, so getting a 5+ cover save at all times doesn't really make up for losing a 4+ cover save on the critical early turns when your opponent's anti-vehicle firepower is strongest.

Doing it....wrong.

I don't have time to pick apart everything you've said. Just go play IG, you obviously want to be an IG player, look at your avatar, for Christ's sake. If you are already and IG player, great, leave the Tau advice to people who can hack it.

Where did you get this absurd idea that it's about "can hack it" or not? And how many times do I have to say that Tau are perfectly capable of winning, and that my complaint and reason for calling them weak is their crippling lack of diversity in good units compared to modern codices? I don't know about you, but I think that when a codex starts with fewer units than a modern book and then gets reduced to "Broadsides and fireknives" it's not exactly a healthy state of balance even if the "Broadsides and fireknives" list is winning tournaments.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
It's an old codex, we all know. We get a new one in like 6 months. But the "Broadsides and fireknives" is just your own blindness. Whine less, learn to adapt, try out the other units, most of them work fine, but not if you have you blinders on.

If they "work fine", then why not tell us all HOW they work fine?

How does a Sky Ray work fine?

How do gun drone squads work fine?

How do Hammerheads work fine, especially compared to similar units in other codices that are considered too weak to use?

How do Vespids work fine?


And don't just quote stat lines like "WS 4" or whatever, tell me, in detail, how these units do their job better than the traditional "Broadsides and fireknives" units.

So I haven't read everything on here, it's emotional.

Tau are not in the top tier, but they can still hold their own. I play a very good sw player with my tau and last night I had a chance to win. But fluffed it on the last two turns.

The thing with tau is now in 6th they have improved, but actually take thought on how to win. U can't just spam mediocre troops with nice armour saves, with 3 sets of 4 missile toting heavies.

When you win with tau it'll be a squeeze against a good player. But overly worth it when you do. Target prio and a good list is tops and needs to be perfect.

Go read tau tactica and a few army lists on here, also the tau tactica review on the tactics thread on dakka. U will see which troops are good. I would be careful listening to too many people on here.

Also to the above poster. Hammerheads work fine. Yes 175 points is very very expensive. But the large pie plate, is worth it. I used to never like blasts. But the hammer head with 72" blast, has really really impressed me.

And So many are better than Fireknives. Depends on their job.

As for OP, if you want to play tau, don't let anyone influence your decision......tho tbh they do rock And are fun to play.:p.

Tompi3 wrote:
Tau are not in the top tier, but they can still hold their own. I play a very good sw player with my tau and last night I had a chance to win. But fluffed it on the last two turns.

So you're happy that you had a chance to win? Sounds like a sign of a weak codex...

Also to the above poster. Hammerheads work fine. Yes 175 points is very very expensive. But the large pie plate, is worth it. I used to never like blasts. But the hammer head with 72" blast, has really really impressed me.

And this proves my point nicely. IG get the same STR/AP pie plate on a Griffon, except it's also a barrage weapon and twin-linked (IOW, a better weapon), and they pay half as many points for it. And you know what the opinion of the average IG player is? That the Griffon is too weak to justify taking it in a serious list. It really shows the level of desperation among Tau players when they claim that it's somehow a good idea to pay twice as much for an IG reject!

(Yes, the Hammerhead has the solid shot option, but you're the second person in this thread to suggest taking the Hammerhead for its blast mode.)

Lol ok what I was trying to Say is even against a top teir army if it wasn't for myself tau can perform.they are weak. But still have a chance...nothing wrong with that.

But yes I agree they are weak, no sorry, weaker* than most but someone always will be. Tau will have their chance next year to shine.

For the time being, make The best of a situation.

You do not take the hammerhead just for the template, you take it for the flexibility to have both. On lower point levels he is way more effective than his points in broadsides as the high-av-saturation is just too low to get effective shots the whole game.

Peregrine, do you even PLAY tau? or look at Tau-dedicated forums and see all the things people come up with?

I'm sorry, but you know NOTHING about Tau tactics and unit uses, and true many of them looks "wrong" on paper, but works in practice so lets give you a slight review on just how wrong you are about units:
Scoring method:
1-no reason not to, except wanting other units even more.
0.75-not perfect, but often good.
0.5-not for everyone, but a charm in the right list.
0.25-more often useless then useful, but has its perks.
0-no reason to take it ever.


HQ:
Ethereal-high risk for a high reward, and one cheap ass HQ choice. totally viable, and combos will with shadowsun. his escort is also quite viable. 0.5
Crisis HQ-gets the job done, although a bit expensive. his escort might have uses in some lists too. 1


Elite:
Crisis-the Tau workhorse, does everything and does it well. 1
Stealth-under new rules, they are annoying as feth to deal with, 6th tau dont use them as "super killers" but to be an hindrence, and force the enemy to split his forces as they hassle his rear. 0.5

Troops:
Firewarrior-got better. not marine level, but better. 0.75
Kroot-lost their main purpose at 6th, but still have uses in some lists. 0.25
Devilfish-over expensive, but have some uses, both at target saturation, and FoF (it STILL works, just deploys differently. using the old methods will lead to death now, new methods work well.) 0.5

Fast Attack:
Piranha-Well, they are suicide missile and lane blockers, and not cheap for that, but some lists like them. 0.25
Pathfinders-markerlights in dime a dozen, whats not to like? having to carry a fish even if you don't want one. 0.5
Vespid-yep, totally useless there. 0
Drones-well, quite bad at it's current form. 0

Heavy support
Broadside-they work, only a fool will disagree 1.
Hammerhead-they are used for the freaking BLAST. yes, the IG get it for only 75 points, but as an immobile platform compared to super-mobile hammerhead, with less armor, open topped, and almost half range. not to mention no alternate fire mode of s10ap1 you can throw if you need it. 0.75
Sniper drones-not useless any more. the new stealth makes them VERY hard to kill from a distance, just hide them in minimal cover and net a 2+ cover save. 0.25
Skyray-unfortunatly truly useless. 0

Named Characters-
Anu'va-yes, useless. not as bad as "wont take him for free" as you stated, but I would not pay 200 on him. a 100 would be worth a look. 0
Farsight-you take him for freaking crisis spam lists anyway, so why would you even CARE about limits to other units? (except broadsides, they are the only limit that really hurts, the others you wont take more then 1 anyway in such a list.) not to mention that as a soloist he rapes in one-on-one combat pretty much any marine character, and is better then dread in wrecking tanks. 0.5
Shadowsun-great LD bubble, devestating melta power (its 2 seperate guns that can shoot 2 different tanks, not a twin-linked gun!) new stealth works like a charm on her, granting it to whoever she joins, combos with Ethereal. 0.5

So total scoring I give to the Tau is: 8.25/18
Less then 50% effective codex, and a small one to boot.
Thats pretty bad, but not AS bad as you made it look like.

There ARE options, there are units that combo-out to make formation way more useful then any of them separated.
And above all-you have TACTICS. who can drain a whole lot more out of units then their stat lines, and as far as tactics go-tau are a LOT more flexible then marine armies are.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I'm sorry, but you know NOTHING about Tau tactics and unit uses, and true many of them looks "wrong" on paper, but works in practice so lets give you a slight review on just how wrong you are about units:

Actually, you're going to prove my point quite nicely. You said it yourself, the only FOC slot where the Tau get more than one 0.75-1 option (IOW, more than one option that you'd ever take in a competitive game) is in heavy support, and they only have that because you massively over-value the Hammerhead's blast weapon. This is the textbook definition of an obsolete army with minimal flexibility.

Hammerhead-they are used for the freaking BLAST. yes, the IG get it for only 75 points, but as an immobile platform compared to super-mobile hammerhead, with less armor, open topped, and lower balistic skill. not to mention no alternate fire mode of s10ap1 you can throw if you need it. 0.75

So what if it's open-topped and immobile? Put it behind LOS-blocking terrain where it gets a 1+ cover save and AV infinite, and it has enough range to reach pretty much anywhere on the table.

Or let's look at the LR Erradicator: same STR/AP, but it ignores cover (awesome against the kind of things submunition shots are effective against), gets AV 14, and has the option to take a hull lascannon to compete with the Hammerhead's solid shot. And it's considered even worse than a Griffon, to the point that you'll never take one except if you're having pity on a newbie and taking a deliberately weak list.

So, the sad truth is that Tau players seriously over-estimate the value of a STR 6 AP 4 pie plate. The idea of paying Hammerhead-level points and giving up one of the best units in the game (Broadsides) to take one would be laughable to people who play another army, but somehow Tau players continue to do it.

I dont really know what all the nay sayers are on about. Sure they arnt top tier, but when in capable hands the Tau can wreck face. The Tau player in our group I wouldnt call a badass player, but she has done some pretty impressive F-U to us on the table. And she uses stealthsuits as well as a boat load of firewarriors. The shooting is just incredible.

You see everyone disagree with you about the hammerhead, and still insisnt.

When will you realize that skimmer mobility changes the weapon completely.


You will hide it behind LOS-blocking terrain? fine. wtih the range it got I'll go around it in a single turn at best of it shooting at me and blast you to narnia without effort. its a CRAPPY artillery because it lacks the ONE requirement for artillery to do anything of value-RANGE. (and as a mobile artillery veteran in RL, trust me on that one, high range is the ONLY reason you use artillery in an army.)

LR erradicator? SERIOUSLY? THAT'S your choice to compare with hammerhead? again, RANGE. again MOBILITY. there is no match. you will "match" the solid shot with a lascannon? it has lower S, AP and range, how is it "matching"?
Yes, it has more armor, and yes it ignores cover for the blast, but it costs more, don't get the jinx save, don't have nearly as much anti-tank power, not much better then half range, cant fly over terrain, has lower ballistic skill, not to mention Tau can place far better upgrades on it that the IG can place on the LR (BSF to totally ignore night fighting with no penalty, MT to keep shooting while moving at high speed, and a few less often used ones that can take you by surprise.)


We do not over-estimate the S6AP4, it's cute, nothing more. it is YOU who UNDERESTIMATE the sheer power of the chassis it is attached to. its not a monolith, but its MUCH more then a Russ, despite lower armor.


Also, in regard to you saying I am proving your point.
The only point proven is that you lack the ability to realize units are more then stat-line, and how they interact with each other is as important, if not moreso, then the pure stat line.
YES, broadsides are the best as-is unit in the codex, YES HS is where the Tau work with the most diverse and powerful options, NO it does not freaking mean there is one way to play.

You say you MUST take broadsides and fireknifes?

Well, I'll step up to that.
How about I make a competitive list without a single fireknife or broadside?
In fact, other then FW and hammerhead, not a single unit who I scored over 0.5 will be used.
(ok fine, I'll probably pack crisis teams too, but not fireknifes.)

Name the point cost you want it done at.

 Peregrine wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
It's an old codex, we all know. We get a new one in like 6 months. But the "Broadsides and fireknives" is just your own blindness. Whine less, learn to adapt, try out the other units, most of them work fine, but not if you have you blinders on.

If they "work fine", then why not tell us all HOW they work fine?
.

There are, y'know, Tacticas for that, this isn't really the time for school.

Yes they are unpopular but no they are not weak. To be successful with Tau you have to really have to bring the right units, set up well, and have excellent target priority. Did tau get better in 6th yes and no. Biggest nerf was target locks being taken away. The ability to split fire w/ a 3 man xv88 team comes to mind. In 5th you could have each broadside fire at a different target, now in 6th all 3 have to fire at the same target...meaning overkill. So now you're seeing less broadsides and that hurts a tau player. Biggest pro now, rapid fire rules. Move 6" shoot 30" w/ S5 FW's. Also the ability to take forgeworld units in a 40k game now is crucial since they were approved. Tetras really help out, 4 markerlights on the move at bs4. I run 4 but keep them at range and partially hidden. A smart opponent w/ try and take them away early. Also hammerhead turrets like the plasma cannon are hard hitting 4 shot S7 48" AP3 Twin linked. Nice for flyers. I run 2 in my single foc list and bring a aegis line for 50pts. Anything behind it is 4up.. And to those who say players batch and complain about using Forgeworld. At my local GW, I have never had one guy ever say anything to me about my tau army and I have been playing Tau since 2001 when they came out. Most people at my store are tourny type players,4 -5 just went to nova so to each is own. If they do complain find a new player and or store or tell them to use what they want from FW. There are certain units you want to take and ones you wan to leave on the shelf. Load up on crisis suits, fire warriors, shield drones, tetras, a few broadsides and 1 or 2 hammerheads. I'm not sold on the stealth teams as I think they don't deliver enough punch, however their 2up cover save is nice and infiltrate is a help. Biggest problem for me now is the ability to move to objectives as I run no transports as they are too pricey and have too few shots and here is where allies comes into play. Space marines and Eldar are your best bet as you can use their powers per say as battle brothers. Eldar more for psyker stuff marines more for survivability. I run a small SM detachment w/ 2 tac sqds. in drop pods w/ locater beacons and a Libby. Mostly for grabbing that objectives in the other side of the table that I otherwise can't reach. Throw in deepstriking xv8's 6" to the pod, closely infiltrating kroot for either a meat shield or support fire and you get the idea. Rumor has it a new dex is coming qtr. 1 13' according to the faeit 212 blog, here's to hoping. Best of luck!!

I have to disagree with the naysayers as well. And yes, I play Tau.

There's a whole lot of people out there on the 'net that fully believe that max Fireknives / Railguns / minimum troops / no Devilfish is the One Twue Way, and all others suck. It's not true, simply isn't, especially in 6th edition. Tau aren't meant to be used as a static gunline - their special weapons are just too short ranged in general, and you get too few of them. Their vehicles aren't suited to long range firepower duels. The only real thing that makes them good at long range shooting is railguns - and you can only field so many of those.

I love my Crisis suits to death, but I run zero Fireknives. For every target set you're looking to go at, there's a more efficient loadout - you've got the slots, specialize ffs. PR/BC is more effective against essentially every kind of infantry out there. TL FB or FB/MP suits wreck vehicles more efficiently than a FK ever will. FB/Flamer suits are better close range wrecking machines against armor and infantry. Hell, even BC/MP are more efficient at light-medium infantry killing and light vehicle killing. There's more options out there, play with them.

As far as Stealth Suits, I've only used them a few times since 6th came out. That said, they've got amazing potential as objective harassment units and tank hunters. Having a 4+ cover save all the time, against every shot, from any range, is amazing. Backing it with a 3+ armor save is even better. They're like deep striking heavy bolter scouts in power armor, only infinitely more mobile. Oh, and you get them at the same cost per S5 shot that you get Firewarriors for - you basically get tougher, more mobile, more survivable FWs for the same cost. What's not to love?

In the troops category, FWs are actually very good indeed. Their weaknesses are in their leadership stat and their mobility. Their transport is too expensive; drop it to Chimera cost and we're in business. Once you solve that problem, they throw an amazing amount of firepower downrange, are more survivable than anything other than power armored basic troops. Ld 7 sucks though, and without many ways to boost that, it's hard to keep them on the board when they're under fire. But that's true of most non-marine armies.

More on the Devilfish: the flat out rules in this edition are fantastic. Being able to move up, drop your FWs out for a rapid fire barrage, then move the Fish to block is amazing. Having a 5+ or 4+ jink save makes them very survivable, especially with 3 hull points each. I don't bother with any upgrades other than flechette dischargers; they're not gunboats, so I don't try to make them one.

Kroot can be phenomenal when you use them right. They're not meatshields for your gunline - buy an Aegis for that instead. They're denial units, and objective holders, and cover campers. Any time I threw a unit of Kroot in cover, they lasted a millennium. Hell, at NOVA I even killed off a Blood Angels assault squad that assaulted a unit of 14 in cover on an objective. Rapid fire overwatch plus two attacks each and good WS / S means that they will in fact pull down even dedicated assault troops. I've assaulted with them and won, even against marines. For their points, if you're not trying to run across open ground or using them as meatshields, they'll more than play their dedicated role.

I'll admit that I'm disappointed by the fast attack choices we have. Piranhas don't really do it for me, but that's a stylistic thing. Pathfinders - and the markerlights they bring - can be incredibly powerful for their points cost. If they were more survivable, I would take them by the bucketload. As it is, however, they come in units that are too small to weather any real amount of fire; if you take big units, you're generally wasting marker hits. I'd take Tetras all day long if I could, and run 2 in friendly games. Having a DF that lets you reroll deepstrike scatter dice is amazing though. Especially since I play very aggressive with my suits.

Vespid... I dont' like them. They are good fast contesting units though, which cost me my last game at NOVA. I don't think I could use them well, but other people do. Small unit for objective denial is definitely an option - nothing we have that's contesting can get across the board quite as quickly. Plus, S5 AP3 guns aren't bad at all - drop them in the backfield to take out missile launcher dev squads and the like, if you have to.

Broadsides need no discussion.

Hammerheads and Skyrays though - I think a lot of people miss the point with these. You can move them 12" per turn and still shoot everything worth shooting. They've got AV13 front armor and you get a 5+ save trivially. They're very survivable against everything but assault. Again, use them aggressively - slam them down your opponent's throat, use those as your screening units along with Devilfish. By the time he kills them - if he does - all your mass short range rapid fire guns will be right there waiting for him. And yes, I think Skyrays are useful for this purpose too - it's an AV13 hull with a 5+ jink save, and 2 markerlights so that the real killy stuff - namely, your Crisis suits and Firewarriors - can do their job better.

As far as Sniper Drone Teams go, I love them. If you look at the Heavy Support slots for Tau and only ask "how many railguns can I take?" then of course they suck - they don't have railguns. On the other hand, for 10% more than a 4 man Pathfinder team with 3 rail rifles, yours get Stealth and Shrouded. You're not using a HS slot for anti-armor - you're using it to provide very survivable, long range anti-MEQ and anti light to medium vehicle firepower. Spread them out a bit, and you'll get side / rear shots on all kinds of vehicles. You don't have to rely on railguns to hammer front armor 12/13 if you're shooting rail rifles into side armor 10/11.

It's a fallacy to think that railguns are the only anti-armor in a Tau list. You can take Fusion in HQ, FA, Elites. You can take EMP grenades in Troops and HQ - and FWs with EMPs will wreck vehicles more reliably and more points efficiently than railguns on any platform.

So... think outside the box a little. There's more suit configurations than Fireknife, you can use HS for more than railguns. Our vehicles exist for more than sitting in the back and shooting railguns.

If I could wave a magic wand for the next codex, I'd want the following:

- Cheaper FWs, possibly with some special weapons - but not heavies, IMO. Grenades for FWs, Kroot, and Vespid.
- Some blast templates, somewhere. Preferably large blast templates - one AFP per army is simply not enough. This is one of the bigger weaknesses, IMO - lack of blast weapons.
- Heavy flamers.
- Rail rifles in more slots. FW teams with a few rail rifles would be godly. Rail rifles on Crisis or Stealth Suits would be godly.
- Better markerlight options - if you gave Pathfinders Shrouded or Stealth, and removed the DF tax, I'd take buckets of them.
- A fast attack choice with a heavy flamer for clearing objectives.
- FLYERS. Or some damn skyfire / interceptor options.
- Being able to load some frag options / flakk missiles in our Missile Pods would be amazing.
- Cost reductions to bring things in line with the 5e / 6e codexes.
- Drones on vehicles not counting for KP anymore. KP missions are brutal on Tau.

BoomWolf wrote:How about I make a competitive list without a single fireknife or broadside?

My NOVA list had no railguns and no FKs. The list worked fine, though I definitely made mistakes along the way. Never had an issue with vehicles outside of flyers, and killed a few of those too.

I would actually be looking forward to some tactical requirements for an army. Being a new player that would be an excellent learning tool. Also having started out with SW and my only regular gaming buddy being GK means all our games devolve into deploy -> charge straight on at each other -> see who rolls poorest in the ensuing nothing but melee rounds.

Could someone perhaps post a link to the good tau tactic/army list threads? Good place to learn and knowing is half the battle.... ; )

Are the FW options rather necessary? I know they are approved now but id be a little worried taking things like that with a new codex so close on the horizon. Who knows what it will change.

For the hammerhead situation, new FAQ means disruption pods give the vehicle shrouded if shot at over 12" away. If that stacks with jink, hello 3+ safe.

Also the Fireknives comment I play my competitive list without Fireknives as well.

Oh and target locks are back

Nanaki check out advanced tau tactica. . Also on dakka the 6th ed tau tactica review, in the 40k tactics section is pretty helpful. Post a list up when ever you want and the replies on here are pretty damn helpful.

Forge world isn't needed! But it can just bring in a bit more variety in play.

It does stack with Jink - Jink is a cover save, Shrouded stacks with cover saves, hence... 3+ cover saves outside of 12". Definitely gives a massive boost to survivability.

ATT is a good place to start, just keep in mind that they've developed a definite mono culture over the years.

As far as FW goes... my personal opinion is that Tau need the most help in the Troop part of the FOC. There's some amazing FW choices there - Sensor Towers and Drone Turrets are some of the better ones, for sure. Sensor Towers let a unit within 12" fire as if twin linked - think of what that does for things like Firewarriors shooting at flyers. It's also got a networked twin linked markerlight to boot. Drone Turrets are self-shooting artillery pieces, with either TLBC or TLMP. Getting MPs in a troops choice, with T7 3+ 2 wounds to boot, is amazing IMO. And, interestingly enough, you can deploy them via Deep Strike for 5 points each.

Opens a lot of doors.

The other big one IMO is Tetras. Markerlights are highly underrated, and getting a Heavy 4 BS4 markerlight on a fast skimmer is amazing. Cheap as hell for 50pts each.

The rest of it... eh. Remoras can be good anti-flyer, with Shrouded and all, but meh. Barracudas are great flyers though, expensive cash-wise though. I'm not sold on the fast attack suits - getting lots of large blast templates would be a godsend, but I think they're pretty expensive points-wise. Not sure if it's worth the cost really.

I think you're probably fine investing in some towers and Tetras, for sure. Even if they're not in the next codex they'll make a world of difference in your games, and they're relatively inexpensive.

Veskrashen wrote:
I
- Drones on vehicles not counting for KP anymore. KP missions are brutal on Tau.

Actually, as long you don't disembark them they dont count any more, any many missions don't care what dies except the first blood, and warlord. as for the "big guns" and "scourge" missions-they only care for one spesific slot.

So, more often then not, the drones don't give points at all now, and in the few missions they do, you can choose to disallow them from doing so.


EDITL

WOW!
New FAQ just came out, CHECK IT OUT!!!
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570052a_Tau_Empire_v1.1.pdf


Target locks are BACK
D-pod is better then ever! hello cover 3+ tanks out in the open!

Sweet. That's good to know.

Also, wicked idea... Sensor Towers / Tetras / Pathfinder DFs let you reroll your deep strike results. Drone Turrets can deep strike and take Disruption Pods. Disruption Pods give Shrouded.

Deep strike some TLMP turrets into cover in your opponent's deployment zone, or somewhere else with side / rear LOS to his vehicles etc.

You now have TLMPs on a T7 2 wound platform, with 3+ armor save.... and 3+ cover save outside of 12". 2+ if you can get them into ruins.

TLMPs make pretty good anti-flyer units too - and deep striking them means you should be able to get rear armor shots as well. PosRel on the Sensor Towers means you get them when you want them, too.

OMG, OMG, I can't believe this. 3+ cover all (most) of the time on hammerheads?

This is going to change my FOB list significantly.

The new FAQ is a godsend to tau.

Amazing D-pods now, and so cheap.
Target locks make a comeback so you can pack 3-man broadside squads again.

Not to metion what this means to things like FoF, sniper drones, multi-setup crisis and such.

Forgeworld also gains alot with not-so-squishy tetra, and not-that-removable turrets.

target lock is basically just adds the fire control ability long fangs get? Trying to find some common ground to equate things too. XD I have much to learn it would seem.

Uh, yeah, sorta. The model with the target lock gets to fire seperately. You can often have that equipped on all the modes (usually best o have models -1) but it costs 5 pts and there are space restrictions.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
OMG, OMG, I can't believe this. 3+ cover all (most) of the time on hammerheads?

Shoot & move with Hammerhead, then flatout a Piranha in front of it. Both now have 2+ cover save...

Erm, no, a Vehcile blocking another vehicle still on grants you a 5+ save.

Oh right, I just looked at the example and thought that Obscured was always 4+ for Vehicles. But that was a Ruin.

Ruin would work.

Just moving the Hammerhead period gives you a 3+ cover save... on a AV13 vehicle. That's huge.

And of course, you can now take your FWs in DFs, flat out first turn, then dump them in rapid fire range top of turn 2. Use the DFs to flat out right after the FWs shoot, to block LOS to the FWs, and the DF gets a 2+ cover save for it, 4+ inside of 12". Not bad at all IMO.