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Marbo is very reliable. He never scatters when he arrives, and his blast will direct hit 1/3+5/12=3/4 of the time, only very very rarely doing atrociously bad.

Compare to a primaris who has a 1/3 or 1/6 chance of getting the spell in the first place. Then he needs to cast it, and if it's shooting then he has to roll to hit, then deny the witch. Is that really worth a highly accurate single-shot demolisher cannon? Honestly, marbo is fantastic.

 Testify wrote:
Marbo is very reliable. He never scatters when he arrives, and his blast will direct hit 1/3+5/12=3/4 of the time, only very very rarely doing atrociously bad.

Compare to a primaris who has a 1/3 or 1/6 chance of getting the spell in the first place. Then he needs to cast it, and if it's shooting then he has to roll to hit, then deny the witch. Is that really worth a highly accurate single-shot demolisher cannon? Honestly, marbo is fantastic.

Yes and if Marbo was a HQ slot this wouldn't be a discussion. The point is you are required to take a HQ and a solitary model cheaper than a command squad (and much easier to protect due to IC) might be a reasonable buy. Throw in the fact he may get a decent selection of very useful abilities your all set. All we have to go on is a recent tourney result and various anecdotes.

The psyker does have to roll, but it's not like he's GOT to get A power with ONE roll to be useful. He has access to several useful abilities, and gets to roll twice for them. It's less "I'm taking the psyker because of THIS" (unless you stay with lightning fingers), so much as "I want a psyker to do this kind of thing, which specific way will he do it?"

As for Marbo, he's a one-shot battlecannon. If you want large blasts, take HS slots. The psyker is capable of a whole lot more than marbo will ever do, especially in the field of supporting other units.

A psyker can gate. A psyker can give a unit an invul save. A psyker can give a unit FNP, and that's before considering some of the other things in the firepower category (that directly compete against marbo), like shreik and OM and crush, and other stuff that is useful in a broader range of situations... and he gets to shoot more than once.

 lazarian wrote:
Yes and if Marbo was a HQ slot this wouldn't be a discussion. The point is you are required to take a HQ and a solitary model cheaper than a command squad (and much easier to protect due to IC) might be a reasonable buy. Throw in the fact he may get a decent selection of very useful abilities your all set. All we have to go on is a recent tourney result and various anecdotes.

The problem is it's cheap, but you aren't getting very much for those points. I can maybe see it working in a small game where every point counts and cutting ~20 points off a CCS lets you fit in another full unit, but I can't see a good argument for taking it as a standard HQ.

And the recent tournament isn't a very good example, since the list was primarily SW with the IG as table quarter holders (made especially important by the NOVA format). That's very different from an IG-based army playing the normal 40k missions.

 Ailaros wrote:
The psyker does have to roll, but it's not like he's GOT to get A power with ONE roll to be useful. He has access to several useful abilities, and gets to roll twice for them. It's less "I'm taking the psyker because of THIS" (unless you stay with lightning fingers), so much as "I want a psyker to do this kind of thing, which specific way will he do it?"

The problem is you have to commit to taking the psyker and any relevant support units before you roll for powers. For example, could gate be useful? Sure. Would I take a unit that can make good use of gate for the ~30% chance that my psyker will actually get the power I need to make it work? No. Once you consider the missing support for those "useful" powers, the odds of getting something that justifies the psyker's presence in your list are pretty disappointing.

As for Marbo, he's a one-shot battlecannon. If you want large blasts, take HS slots. The psyker is capable of a whole lot more than marbo will ever do, especially in the field of supporting other units.

And again, this isn't really true. Marbo has a lot of advantages that the heavy support units cant duplicate. His blast is a lot more accurate, it often ignores cover, it can come in from any direction you want to hit weapon upgrades/ignore tank characters/etc, it forces your opponent to anticipate it and change their deployment, and it costs less than half a Leman Russ.

The psyker, on the other hand, doesn't consistently do anything impressive. The only power you can count on having is the equivalent of a couple Chimera multilasers, and the "good" support powers are balanced out by the high chance of getting garbage and wasting your 70 points.

A psyker can gate. A psyker can give a unit an invul save. A psyker can give a unit FNP, and that's before considering some of the other things in the firepower category (that directly compete against marbo), like shreik and OM and crush, and other stuff that is useful in a broader range of situations... and he gets to shoot more than once.

But are any of these things really worth it?

Gate is situational at best. Sometimes it's not bad, but usually it's a more expensive version of melta storm troopers with a higher mishap chance.

Telekine dome is bad, since a 5+ invulnerable save is rarely going to matter when 5+ cover is just as good against most weapons.

Endurance is good if you have a proper defensive unit to spend it on, but it's balanced out by the fact that there's exactly one other power in biomancy (enfeeble) that isn't worthless, so you have a 30% chance of getting Endurance and a 50% chance of throwing away 70 points.

Psychic shriek is incredibly overrated and borderline worthless. The high-save units where an AP 2 weapon is useful tend to have LD 9 or better, and against LD 9 you average 1.36 wounds (2.45 average result, 1/6 DTW, 4/6 to hit). If they have LD 10 or a better DTW, that number drops even lower. Compare this to the 1.11 wounds inflicted by a single plasma gun, or the 2.222 wounds inflicted by a melta CCS for only 20 points more.

OM isn't terrible, but, like endurance, it's really hurt by the high chance of getting garbage if you risk trying to roll for it.

Crush is worthless. Once you're done rolling all of the dice for it, your chances of doing anything are pretty bad, and even when it does work you spent 70 points to kill a single model. Which, coincidentally, is the cost of a Griffon, a much better sniper.


The end result is that the random powers are hopelessly inconsistent, and an excellent way to throw away points.

I also like the Primaris.

@Peregrine

No you can't build your army around a specific power, but you can make good use of many powers within a normal built army. Small but important difference.

I mean you pack a CCS with melta and face 180 boyz. Is that CCS any useful? No, but maybe your PCS with 4 flamers will shine. Thats how IG works, you will end up having "wasted" points somewhere, but you will instead get an exceptional performance of another unit that makes up for it. So in the end even the normal melta or plasma or whatever CCS is as situational as the Psyker.

But situational isn't necessarily bad. You just need a decent "must"-performance from a unit. Everything else is considered bonus. But your opponent will focus his interest on your "bonus", which makes him forget the basics.

Basics for the primaris are:

Better "Deny the witch"
LD9 IC with 3 wounds
powerweapon with the possibility of instant death (no, not necessarily S3, give him a force staff and he will have light troops for breakfast...)
only 70 points compared to a much more expensive CCS

You can do a bunch of stuff with that package. But on top of that you get the possibility of two psychic abilities. If they suit your army and work well together with his basics, he will be very good.

So all in all, the CCS is of course a solid choice, but so is the Primaris. The LC is as well though since IC got much better. The cloakfist guy is always useful in any unit although he is a bit expensive...

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
I mean you pack a CCS with melta and face 180 boyz. Is that CCS any useful? No, but maybe your PCS with 4 flamers will shine. Thats how IG works, you will end up having "wasted" points somewhere, but you will instead get an exceptional performance of another unit that makes up for it. So in the end even the normal melta or plasma or whatever CCS is as situational as the Psyker.

The difference is simple:

The melta CCS is "situational" in that it's weak occasionally (and don't forget it always has the best orders) but awesome most of the time.

The Primaris with default powers is situational in that sometimes it rolls well, but most of the time it's just another couple multilasers like the ones on your Chimera wall.

The Primaris with book powers is situational in that sometimes it's average, but most of the time it sucks.

If you're going to take a situational unit it needs to be amazing in its ideal situation, and that situation needs to happen frequently. The Primaris fails that test horribly, it's rare that you get its full potential and even when you do it's still only a decent unit, not an amazing one.

You can do a bunch of stuff with that package. But on top of that you get the possibility of two psychic abilities. If they suit your army and work well together with his basics, he will be very good.

Err, no. The psyker without its powers is utterly worthless and a waste of points. DTW is not that useful when it costs that much, using it as an IC for leadership is less efficient than spending the points on more units so you keep one around even if one fails a check, and the power weapon is laughably bad. Sure, it's cheaper than a fully equipped CCS, but not by much and the CCS can actually win games for you.

So, if you want to talk about the psyker, the only thing that matters is its powers.

The cloakfist guy is always useful in any unit although he is a bit expensive...

You might want to check the FAQ. Cloaks now only give +1 cover to the model with them, not Stealth, so he provides no defensive bonus to the unit and as a powerfist carrier he's a waste of points. The only reason to take the LC is for the leadership boost.

The melta CCS is "situational" in that it's weak occasionally (and don't forget it always has the best orders) but awesome most of the time.

The Primaris with default powers is situational in that sometimes it rolls well, but most of the time it's just another couple multilasers like the ones on your Chimera wall.

The Primaris with book powers is situational in that sometimes it's average, but most of the time it sucks.

To be honest, this needs some further support. These are just statements.

Why exactly is the melta-CCS so awesome? it will get 1 shot per game and that one has to be decisive. It is most likely to die, which is not particularly good because it contains your warlord. It really sucks against infantry of all kind. It just needs the Landraider-kill to be really helpful.

CCS is a good unit, don't get me wrong, but in 6th suicide melta ccs' are dead imho. I would prefer the standard+heavy weapon or plasma ccs which keeps distance. If you buy a chimera you will pay double the cost of a primaris.

Now back to the Primaris:

Yes the powers are random. But powers with a strategic value are always helpful. Which is why I would always choose telepathy. You get a solid defensive primary power and you get a random secondary power which has a range of 24". Puppet master is useful when the opponent has vehicles of any kind or psykers as well (although some limitation due to deny the witch) which is most likely (actually if not, then a melta CCS would be of absolute no use), But even if it never gets off that means the opponent commited very much effort to avoid a 70p model. Good for me.

getting squads back to fight is great as well. And it is even greater than the order, because it works in the movement phase before the unit actually fled. The psychic test is also more reliable than the order test.

making enemies lose fearless and take a morale check is also very good, especially together with a PBS.

and killing the enemys movement is also good to have. Doesnt work very often, but it is a factor the opponent needs to consider, which is all I need.

So I take the Primaris with telepathy primary power for 70 points with pleasure. Every power that comes on top is a bonus. And since I can roll twice between 4 powers it is most likely I get something that I want this game.

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
Why exactly is the melta-CCS so awesome? it will get 1 shot per game and that one has to be decisive. It is most likely to die, which is not particularly good because it contains your warlord. It really sucks against infantry of all kind. It just needs the Landraider-kill to be really helpful.

Because the melta CCS is your ultimate trump card for vehicles. Four melta guns with BiD will consistently get the job done no matter what the target is. Land Raider? Dead. Leman Russ? Dead. Rhino full of your opponent's objective holding troops that you need to de-mech right now so you can shoot them in time? Dead. And even against infantry it will consistently kill 2-3 MEQs a turn, with instant death against anything T4.

Yes the powers are random. But powers with a strategic value are always helpful. Which is why I would always choose telepathy. You get a solid defensive primary power and you get a random secondary power which has a range of 24". Puppet master is useful when the opponent has vehicles of any kind or psykers as well (although some limitation due to deny the witch) which is most likely (actually if not, then a melta CCS would be of absolute no use), But even if it never gets off that means the opponent commited very much effort to avoid a 70p model. Good for me.

Except telepathy is garbage.

The primaris power averages about one wound on any target you actually care about using it against. IOW, considerably less than a melta CCS, and with no better range.

Dominate is too inconsistent, it can sometimes paralyze a unit but it has a low chance of working. Just spend the points on guns and kill the unit.

Mental fortitude is worthless. If you're worried about morale bring commissars and a CCS so you can still go to ground when you need it.

Puppet master is worthless unless your opponent brought gun tanks. Half the time you'll get a heavy weapon and maybe do some damage if you roll well, half the time you'll just shoot a bolter at something. It's great when you can hijack a Leman Russ, but too unreliable to be a truly good power.

Terrify is worthless. If you want to force a morale check spend 70 points on guns and inflict 25% casualties. Removing fearless is also pretty weak since most fearless things you care about are LD 9/10 anyway.

And then of course you can't cast invisibility or hallucination.


So, out of six powers and a primaris power you have one situational power, four garbage powers, and two you can't cast at all. I'm not really impressed.

getting squads back to fight is great as well. And it is even greater than the order, because it works in the movement phase before the unit actually fled. The psychic test is also more reliable than the order test.

How is the psychic test more reliable? It's LD 9 vs LD 9 (you did bring a commissar, right?), but the CCS can do it twice a turn (on two separate units obviously). And then of course you can't go to ground anymore once you use the psychic power, while GBitF allows you to go to ground in your opponent's turn, make your saves, and then go right back to shooting in your own turn.

making enemies lose fearless and take a morale check is also very good, especially together with a PBS.

And the combo also costs a lot of points, requires two psychic tests, and requires two failed DTW rolls. Without the combo the power is less consistent than just bringing guns and shooting them.

and killing the enemys movement is also good to have. Doesnt work very often, but it is a factor the opponent needs to consider, which is all I need.

You know what's better than killing the enemy's movement? Killing the enemy.