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The reason their armor save is poor still is because every variant of power weapon will still ignore it. With how prevalent power weapons can be, there are much more appealing choices than flayed ones. It's easy to circumvent their poor armor from shooting, not from cc.

Out of the units you named, either there were no power weapons involved our your opponent rolled terribly.

Yes, but they at least have the RP, which is more save against power weapons then most units have (of course they have to survive to use it, but large squads have no issue with this). Also, my numbers were based on averages assuming power weapons on models in those units that can carry them. It's not like every model in the game carries a power weapon, even CC based models. Some of the units that are filled with power weapons, such as TH and PF carrying terms, Flayed Ones do quite well against.

Initiative 2 assault units with a 4+ save? Yea, good luck with that after overwatch and attacking last.They are a good distraction, well, a semi good destraction. They will show up, then they will die. Maybe against a weak shooty army that cant handle any cc they will do well, but that wont last for long as they get blasted after killing whatever you put them against.

Lets put it this way, and it sounds bad, they are close combat Necron warriors. That has a bad ring to it.

But if you must, they can be a distraction.

This is the kind of cursory anecdote that confuses me. They have higher initiative, 3 times the amount of wounds, and more then 4 times the amount of attacks, as Terms. Do Terms automatically suck because they are I1? Do you really think 1 T4 2+/5++ wound is superior then 3 T4 4+/RP wounds? The mechanics between the two units works out in a very similar fashion, but peoples flawed perception of those mechanics keeps them from seeing this. Now, the Terms excel against hardier targets, but the Flayed Ones do much better against hordes. They also can eat considerably more bullets, and can Infiltrate etc. Pros and Cons. There is no standardized metric where you can say one unit is obviously superior to other, and one of those units is considered one of the best CC units in the game, and the other is consider trash. Nothing baffles me more then this inconsistent perception.

Shadarlogoth wrote:

Initiative 2 assault units with a 4+ save? Yea, good luck with that after overwatch and attacking last.They are a good distraction, well, a semi good destraction. They will show up, then they will die. Maybe against a weak shooty army that cant handle any cc they will do well, but that wont last for long as they get blasted after killing whatever you put them against.

Lets put it this way, and it sounds bad, they are close combat Necron warriors. That has a bad ring to it.

But if you must, they can be a distraction.

This is the kind of cursory anecdote that confuses me. They have higher initiative, 3 times the amount of wounds, and more then 4 times the amount of attacks, as Terms. Do Terms automatically suck because they are I1? Do you really think 1 T4 2+/5++ wound is superior then 3 T4 4+/RP wounds? The mechanics between the two units works out in a very similar fashion, but peoples flawed perception of those mechanics keeps them from seeing this. Now, the Terms excel against hardier targets, but the Flayed Ones do much better against hordes. They also can eat considerably more bullets, and can Infiltrate etc. Pros and Cons. There is no standardized metric where you can say one unit is obviously superior to other, and one of those units is considered one of the best CC units in the game, and the other is consider trash. Nothing baffles me more then this inconsistent perception.

That is the way I look at it, after all, they are only 13pts each, and has great deployment options, but everyone seems to look at the strength of the unit, not it's tactical maneuverability. For 13 pts, you get 3 attacks (4 on the charge), T4, Sv4+, I2, RP warriors with incredible flexibility. No one seems to understand that.

Regarding the Infiltrate rule:
from pg 38 of the rulebook, "An Independent Character without the the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment."

My understanding of this is that a Flayed One pack is a unit of Infiltrators, regardless of whether they are choosing to deploy regularly, by Deep Strike, by the Infiltrate special rule, or by the Outflank special rule, simply by virtue of having Infiltrate.

Therefore, they cannot deploy with either a Destroyer Lord or Obyron, as has been referenced in this thread, right? Am I understanding the rules correctly? If so, your options seem to be to deploy a unit of Flayed Ones *near* a Destroyer Lord and have the Destroyer Lord join up with the unit on turn 1, so that they can use his Res Orb on the opponent's turn and gain Preferred Enemy when they assault on turn 2. Or deploy behind enemy lines using Infiltrate or Outflank, but without the benefit of any Independent Character.

I don't think a unit is considered "Infiltrators" unless it is actually Infiltrating. So just having the option doesn't automatically preclude them from joining Obyron or a DLord. It's just, if they do include Obyron, they will be forced to deploy normally, and if they do include a DLord, they will be forced to either deploy normally or Deep Strike.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
I don't think a unit is considered "Infiltrators" unless it is actually Infiltrating. So just having the option doesn't automatically preclude them from joining Obyron or a DLord. It's just, if they do include Obyron, they will be forced to deploy normally, and if they do include a DLord, they will be forced to either deploy normally or Deep Strike.

Interesting.

Upon re-reading the rules for Infiltrate, there doesn't appear to be an option for regular deployment. It simply says that a unit with this special rule is deployed last, after all other units. No "may", so there appears to be no option for a standard deployment.

Similarly, a unit with Infiltrate that is kept in reserves (and thus not deploying with the Infiltrate rule) is still referred to as a unit of Infiltrators. In particular, "Having Infiltrate also confers Outflank special rule to units of Infiltrators that are kept as Reserves." What this says to me is that a unit with the Infiltrate special rule is still considered a "unit of Infiltrators", even if its kept in reserves and not deployed using this rule, and thus can't deploy with an Independent Character that doesn't have the Infiltrate ability.

I don't think many people are playing it this way, however, or are even aware of the Independent Character stipulation.

But if that interpretation was correct why would they also have deep strike, as it would be impossible to use it?

It's pretty widely accepted that every unit in the game can be deployed normally unless their rules explicitly state otherwise. Lictors and Ymmrgals for instance, explicitly state otherwise. Flyers as well. There is no explicit statement as such for Infiltrators or (units with the Infiltrating option).

ShadarLogoth wrote:
But if that interpretation was correct why would they also have deep strike, as it would be impossible to use it?

It's pretty widely accepted that every unit in the game can be deployed normally unless their rules explicitly state otherwise. Lictors and Ymmrgals for instance, explicitly state otherwise. Flyers as well. There is no explicit statement as such for Infiltrators or (units with the Infiltrating option).

You are correct, use of infiltrate is a choice and is indicated as such in the deployment section, upon further review.

Still, it refers to a unit with Infiltrate being held in reserves as a "unit of Infiltrators", even though its not using the ability. It also uses the same language, "unit of Infiltrators", when it forbids deployment with an Independent Character without the rule.


Edit: It seems this particular question has been hashed out in the "You Make Da Call" section, as well as on other sites, with little resolution. I guess we'll have to wait for it to show up in a FAQ some day.

Generally if the unit stays in reserve it can't infiltrate, if a character joins it it can't infiltrate, if it deploys normally it has to infiltrate (current RAW).