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nosferatu1001 wrote:
A good 99% of all FW units are overpriced / underpowered. Solid fact.

Yeah, no one is ever complaining about Shadow Specters, Stone Crusher Carnifexes, Vultures, etc unless their complaint is "these things are terrible and no one should ever use them".

No, people see a handful of good unit and declare it all overpowered because they think they have exception to disallow it. (even though it's all got the Games Workshop stamp of approval).

These are frequently the same people filling their armies with Vendettas, Nightscythes, and Paladins even though nothing from Forge World has ever even come close to those.

This is what I have posted in a previous thread concerning Forgeworld rules.

Steelmage99 wrote:

If one takes the obvious step of excluding the use of super heavies and flyers, then one simply need to ban the Big Five (Lucius Pattern Drop Pod, Deathstorm Drop Pod, Hades Breaching Drill, Land Raider Achilles and the Caestus Assault Ram).

If those steps are taken I dare say that the complaints would be so few that they were basically non-existent.

People who complain about the exclusion of the Big Five are IMO the people who just wish to exploit Imperial Armours lack of play testing.

*Response from other poster*

Steelmage99 wrote:

I have no problem with you disagreeing with me on the relative "brokenness" of the various units. That wasn't really my point either.

Relative power-level or not, the units mentioned are the ones I hear complaints about every time I bring up IA.
So my solution was simply to remove those "offending" units, in order to play with all the others. Sort of like a sacrifice for the greater good, ie the ability to freely play with IA (with the mentioned units banned).

The thing I failed to articulate properly in my previous post was the reactions I received when proposing this.
I have, in my experience, found that people who champions the use of IA usually argues that the units in IA, as a whole, are not unbalanced and then proceeds to bring up a number of units from IA that most certainly are not broken, all the while carefully avoiding the Big Five mentioned earlier.
When I talk to opponents of the use of IA, they usually argue that some units are unbalanced and then proceeds to bring up the Big Five, as if they represented the total sum of Forgeworld rules.

Here is the kicker;

When I bring the two parties together and suggest a modification that should leave all parties involved happy (exclude the Big Five, allow everything else save Super Heavies/Flyers), I get a lot of resistance.
Not from the previously opposed to IA-crowd (they are mostly fine with IA being allowed like that), but from the pro-IA-crowd.

The side that previously talked about all those units not being unbalanced (while avoiding the Big Five) don't like the Big Five being excluded!

You know what that tells me?

It tells me that the pro-IA crowd clearly knows which IA-units are the "better" ones, and they want to use those units.
It tells me that the not-broken units mentioned earlier are simply a smoke-screen used in an attempt to "sneak in" the Big Five.

This is, of course, just my experience in attempting to mediate between the two opposing sides in my gaming circle.
All attempts motivated by a desire to find a way to include IA that leaves everybody happy, I might add.

TL;DR:

Don't use Lucius Pattern Drop Pod, Deathstorm Drop Pod, Hades Breaching Drill, Land Raider Achilles and the Caestus Assault Ram, and you troubles will go away.
You will be able to use Imperial Armour and everybody will be happy.

I just read through this whole thread and got a great chuckle out of it.

MOST of the rules for forgeworl models that can be used in a regular 40k game are par or sub par compared to the codex. Often they are slightly to majorly over costed. In old codecies (eldar, tau) FW rules may come across as much better then what is in the codex do to just having an outdated and crappy codex.

I am an eldar player. I am used to playing with rules meant for 4th edition. So the Warp hunter and the hornets, and recently the night wing are all very useful looking to me. If people are used to not seeing me have a SOLID main battle tank and then one game I roll in with warp hunters, they might have a hard time swallowing that. Same with hornets. But that is only because they are used to fighting an old and crappy codex that dont have solid units like those. Thats no different then If I rolled up with an AV13 necron spam list or a Necrn flying circus list. Its jsut that the opponent is now used to Necrons kicking ass.

I love the game and I love seeing great looking models on the board. So FW is a go for me for that reason alone.

There was a good point someone made earlier. People dont complain about shadow spectres or any of the MANY crappy ruled or overcosted model. Just about the few that do hurt on the field. I dont think there is many FW rules that were harder then GK paladins in 5th, or some of the necron stuff now like MSS or quantum shielding, or IG flyers for stupid cheap points.

Also another good point was made. Almost every player I know has downloaded the pdfs for all the codecies out there. And can just as easily download FW books too. So I dont really sympathize for people complaining about the rules being hard to get. If you made your list be a well rounded list then you shouldnt really worry to much about what comes to the table either.

Would it suck to play agaisnt a dread dropping assaulting army or agaisnt that land raider that is like the size of a city block? Yes. But it sucks to play agiasnt a really good Necron list right now too. So its all the same to me.

 Razgriz22 wrote:
I just read through this whole thread and got a great chuckle out of it.

MOST of the rules for forgeworl models that can be used in a regular 40k game are par or sub par compared to the codex. Often they are slightly to majorly over costed. In old codecies (eldar, tau) FW rules may come across as much better then what is in the codex do to just having an outdated and crappy codex.

I am an eldar player. I am used to playing with rules meant for 4th edition. So the Warp hunter and the hornets, and recently the night wing are all very useful looking to me. If people are used to not seeing me have a SOLID main battle tank and then one game I roll in with warp hunters, they might have a hard time swallowing that. Same with hornets. But that is only because they are used to fighting an old and crappy codex that dont have solid units like those. Thats no different then If I rolled up with an AV13 necron spam list or a Necrn flying circus list. Its jsut that the opponent is now used to Necrons kicking ass.

I love the game and I love seeing great looking models on the board. So FW is a go for me for that reason alone.

There was a good point someone made earlier. People dont complain about shadow spectres or any of the MANY crappy ruled or overcosted model. Just about the few that do hurt on the field. I dont think there is many FW rules that were harder then GK paladins in 5th, or some of the necron stuff now like MSS or quantum shielding, or IG flyers for stupid cheap points.

Also another good point was made. Almost every player I know has downloaded the pdfs for all the codecies out there. And can just as easily download FW books too. So I dont really sympathize for people complaining about the rules being hard to get. If you made your list be a well rounded list then you shouldnt really worry to much about what comes to the table either.

Would it suck to play agaisnt a dread dropping assaulting army or agaisnt that land raider that is like the size of a city block? Yes. But it sucks to play agiasnt a really good Necron list right now too. So its all the same to me.

Everything you just said. You just summed up exactly how I feel about this topic.

I LIKE FW, I don't have a problem with my opponent using them. If I get a FW unit, and my opponent says no I won't play against that as I amn't familiar with that, then surely I also have the right to say no I won't play against necrons as I'm not familiar with the codex, being a new player. You aren't familiar with my unit, then I will show you the rules, and then if you are still unhappy, then BITE ME!

Also, nothing in FW is as overpowered as the grey knight paladins, or any of a handful of other standard 40k units that are at the same level.

There is a stigmata about forgeworld units, and I don't understand it.

A good recent example, is when the Cantopek Acanthrites with the experimental rules were posted. People just went Bananas, saying that it was "The most OP unit Forgeworld has ever put out" It wasn't OP at all, It was a Solid Unit, but far, far from OP.

I personally really enjoy seeing Forgeworld units on the table, and I have no problem if anyone brings them. The only thing I ask is that I get to check out the rules for it, before the game starts.

I think that most of the time the units are not overpowered/under-costed . they are just so rarely fielded that we do not know how to approach their presence on the field.

For instance the wraithseer. I have played against one. It was no more scary than a farseer next to a wraith lord. way freaking cooler! all the same no more deadly. sure it had a d-cannon but it was paid for.

Should you let your opponent do it to win at all costs no. is it a person who loves forgeworld stuff, YES!

There is a guy in our gamer group who is awesome, and has tons of forgeworld stuff. he would never even ask to field it in normal games, until one day he just realized that you don't get to play that much apoc.

I don't care what anyone says, in friendly games, let the people use the cool forgeworld stuff.

Most often the units are quite fair. I am sure there are some units that are not but hey some units are just great bang for buck. like a thunderfire, or vindicator.