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 Grey Templar wrote:
Of course the Imperium could care less if you are running a flower shop on 178th street.

How much less?

Sorry, pet peeve of mine.

On Prospero they were drinking coffe,doing yoga( TS were instructors ) and had everything that a 40k citizen can dreams of..,like Kalista said "paradise" and no one wanted to leave...


IT GOT BURNED

You have to remember that the Imperium doesn't get fleshed out to that level of detail because it's more or less irrelevant to the game, and much less grimdark if it doesn't seem like all that anyone does is slave away mindlessly.

From what seems most reasonable based on fluff, the economy and working conditions of every Imperial world is a little bit different, depending on what it does. Obviously a mining world will be different from a Hive world which will be different from an agri world, etc. A planet with a relatively low value to the Imperium (no excesses of usable material wealth to include population) probably has little contact with outside influence, and functions more or less autonomously. That would create its own internal economy with a local currency and widely varied job market. A munitorum world dedicated to weapons production would be significantly different.

Kaldor wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Of course the Imperium could care less if you are running a flower shop on 178th street.

How much less?

Sorry, pet peeve of mine.

Dude, first off your Grey Knights are bloody awesome (Why don't people get as giddy over awesome models as I do? Everyone's always just like 'well done'....)

Also how come it would be a pet peeve that they don't really care? I mean I think the real answer is of course in between but I think he was right about them hardly caring, *relatively* speaking.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:You have to remember that the Imperium doesn't get fleshed out to that level of detail because it's more or less irrelevant to the game, and much less grimdark if it doesn't seem like all that anyone does is slave away mindlessly.

From what seems most reasonable based on fluff, the economy and working conditions of every Imperial world is a little bit different, depending on what it does. Obviously a mining world will be different from a Hive world which will be different from an agri world, etc. A planet with a relatively low value to the Imperium (no excesses of usable material wealth to include population) probably has little contact with outside influence, and functions more or less autonomously. That would create its own internal economy with a local currency and widely varied job market. A munitorum world dedicated to weapons production would be significantly different.

Honestly the grimdark is still certainly not lost on us even if they flesh out the lives of their citizenry, imo. I mean I've been looking through Kid Kyoto's article here (http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Civilian_Life_in_Warhammer_40%2C000_AD ) and it's easy to see just how grimdark it is. The truth is that if you paint the *whole* picture (instead of half of it to the point of saying 'sure there's a ton of slavery, but there are plenty of places that dont have it), then you realize how the galaxy is not only a true crap-hole, but it is actually a very *believable* craphole. And that, to me, holds a great deal of weight. Check Kyoto's 5 points in his article - he's totally right!

Oh, I agree with you, but everything is still kept simplified by GW, because they don't want to be bothered to flesh out the rest of it. Those are boring details that don't sell little toy soldiers, lol.

That's the reason why you get so many varied perceptions of the universe by people. There's a wealth of low and mediocre quality fluff out there by writers who couldn't be bothered to explore the socio-economic climate, or how a society would actually function. Those are boring details, lol.

This is also a world, that when I refer to "less grimdark" refers to the fact that GW has ratcheted up the grimdark very hardcore. Turned all the dials closer towards ten. They've Over-grimdarked, and seem to like it that way. We'll see if the setting evolves to dial it back a bit with the seemingly new direction they're taking with the game.

Mining, working in a factory, entrepreneurship, crafts, assisting the techpriests as a lay servant, farming, thievery, thuggery, banditry, gangbanger...y...

Sure, the average person can't afford much, but if you save up enough / steal enough / get a financial backer of some sort (usually putting yourself in debt, but hey, you probably already were anyway), you can probably start up a sore or shop of some sort, or a restaurant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The "overgrimdark" or whatever is just the codices. The actual sourcebooks/rgp books/black library books that have any details beyond war are usually not so grimdark (even Gaunt's Ghosts to an extent)

 Lynata wrote:

DemetriDominov wrote:Haha, that sounds like some patching to the lore. Like GW wrote that after they realized they never really had any money in the IoM before. I think that's funny.

Keep in mind that the Munitorum Manual is a Black Library product, and just like with various novels as well as its "sister release" (the Uplifting Primer) may very well conflict with GW fluff, be it because the author didn't do sufficient research or just because he liked his own idea more. Examples from the Primer being the Mars-pattern lasgun supposedly having a power slider (when it hasn't), or the idea that it's considered standard for all Imperial Guardsmen to be issued with 20 kilograms of modern-day-style equipment up to replacement socks...

That said, I believe it is also of note to consider that something like the Munitorum Manual author's idea may fit in well with the Imperium, if you keep in mind that it does not actually have to mean money as we know it. A "credit unit" may simply be a means by the Adeptus Terra to allow Imperial organisations to readily acquire products and services for a later reduction in planetary tithe equal to whatever they have already provided. "Give me this now and later you'll have to pay less."

Of course isn't that exactly what money is?

Fiat Money itself is just a medium of exchange. In and of itself it has no value. it has value because the issuer says it has it.


In the case of Imperial Credits, the Imperium is assigning value to these credits. In a way, they arn't actually Fiat money but actually backed by something. They can be redeemed in place of the normal Tithe. Similer to Gold notes that the US treasury used to issue.

Grey Templar wrote:Of course isn't that exactly what money is?

Only if you go by the most basic characterisations - perhaps not even then. Scrip, which is how I interpret these supposed "credit units", is a currency substitute whose propagation is highly limited. I wouldn't expect it to be used as a medium of exchange between civilians. It's just a form of ... well ... credit for the government, eliminating a portion of its future tithe. You could perhaps also describe it as a "receipt for an advance payment"?

The way I imagine circulation in the civilian sector is some Imperial official pays with scrip notes, which can then be exchanged at the local governor's palace or some Administratum office. In the spirit of Grimdark, I see long queues of people wanting to exchange their notes for proper local currency, with the occasional riot and Arbites suppression squads. Needless to say, this red tape creates a lot of reluctance amongst local merchants to accept such notes, yet an Imperial edict would make it punishable not to do so - as long as the holder of this scrip is indeed an Imperial official.

Personal interpretation, though!

I imagine it would depend on the planet too.

I'd assume there would still be prostitutes

Depends on the world, but these are the jobs that a normal Imperial citizen could expect to get.

Menial factory worker
Prostitute
Impoverished farm hand
Impoverished farmer (if lucky)
Draftee
Manservant
Miner
Ganger
Space dockhand
Clerk
Gutter-rat
Unsuccessful small business owner
Scribe
Servitor
Slave
Door-to-door salesman

Peoples job in 40k is to die…no more no less

 Netsurfer733 wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Of course the Imperium could care less if you are running a flower shop on 178th street.

How much less?

Sorry, pet peeve of mine.

Dude, first off your Grey Knights are bloody awesome (Why don't people get as giddy over awesome models as I do? Everyone's always just like 'well done'....)

Also how come it would be a pet peeve that they don't really care? I mean I think the real answer is of course in between but I think he was right about them hardly caring, *relatively* speaking.

Think about what you said. "The Imperium COULD care less". How much less could they care? What does that mean? Do they care a lot, and should care less? Or do they care only a little but should not care at all? What you really meant to say is "The Imperium COULDN'T care less".

Sorry, stupid American twist on that saying. I think everyone knows what I meant.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:It's a good question and oddly enough I recently did a whole article on that subject.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Civilian_Life_in_Warhammer_40%2C000_AD

the short answer is the economy is a blend of ancient, medieval and communist systems. Expect big collective factories and farms, with most commoners born into their jobs and living their whole lives in a mine/farm/factory/data center with no hope of advancement or changing jobs.

Above them is a small and fragile middle class and then a hereditary nobility. Below them are outcasts subsiding in ruins, sewers and other dark places.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:I'm adding some fluff to flesh out my ideas on civilian life.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Civilian%20Life%20in%2040k%20Part%202

Just gotta say I finally got through reading your stuff here man - and I have to give you major kudos!! That was exactly the sort of thing I wanted to read XD I love how dialogue like what you present can really provide the reader with a real sense of what it's like to actually *live* in the 40k universe, and not just you know...learn about it 3rd hand, if that makes sense?

Anyway thanks for the links + the read man, they were great!

(and thnx to you all who gave insights into even more professions + bits about their lives - I read every word, and it was great XD)

Thanks for the kind words about my article, it was a blast to write. I'm still tinkering with it, I just added artwork, so if you've not looked at it lately it's worth a glance.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Civilian_Life_in_Warhammer_40%2C000_AD

The biggest sin I see among fluff writers and fans is the use of the absolute statement.

"The Imperium does not have money"
"Everyone is slaves"

Etc...

With a million worlds and 10,000 years to play with no rule can be absolute. You can go with 'most' or 'almost all' but never say always and never say never.

There has to always be room for cities of black glass patrolled by soldiers with shuriken catapults and roller blades!

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Thanks for the kind words about my article, it was a blast to write. I'm still tinkering with it, I just added artwork, so if you've not looked at it lately it's worth a glance.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Civilian_Life_in_Warhammer_40%2C000_AD

The biggest sin I see among fluff writers and fans is the use of the absolute statement.

"The Imperium does not have money"
"Everyone is slaves"

Etc...

With a million worlds and 10,000 years to play with no rule can be absolute. You can go with 'most' or 'almost all' but never say always and never say never.

There has to always be room for cities of black glass patrolled by soldiers with shuriken catapults and roller blades!

....omfG how did FIND all of those images?! I swear the thing that has made 40k more than anything else has been the official artwork made for it. It's the backbone of the entire franchise. What you got there is gold and it makes that article just a whole load more impressive!

I just love how you seem to totally get it lol - no one else I've ever spoken to about the franchise seems to ever put their finger on where the greatness of 40k lies. It's not about what you can do to your space marine to convert it to make it cool. It's the sheer overwhelming and incomprehensible variety that exists upon so many worlds that lets you basically ignore essentially any other IP ever and gives you a chance to explore the universe in such a unique and magnificent way. It even goes for anything magical, technological, or biological. The grim darkness is the core of a great deal of it but in a great deal of cases that only serves as a remarkable contrast and anchor for everything else. All the varieties of civilian life are such perfect examples of that!

They're all yoinked from FFGs line of role playing games. They do great stuff.

FFG's? Dakka dakka isn't showing that abbreviation as anything, heh. EDIT: Now it did in mine, lol. No frakking joke...I love the idea of so much of their stuff, I just don't know if I'd ever have the opportunity to play them. How did you get them all scanned so perfectly though? Did you find a digital download link?

Also might I ask, I think you briefly mentioned it in your articles but could you more completely explain what you think the role of women is in Imperial society? Maybe I'm not remembering all you said but I mean, what do they do, normally?

FFG=Fantasy Flight Games

They have both hard copies and PDF. If you haven't gotten any of them they are worth just for the art and fluff. The Battle Sisters book in particular is really good.

On women I have a small section, and keep in mind these are just my thoughts...

There's been a couple of references to women in different books, how female Inquisitors are rare but those that rise to the top have to be twice as good and such.

Women

The Imperium is an explicitly patriarchal society where, all things being equal, leaders are expected to be male. After all the Emperor and his Primarchs were men (the 'Sanguinia Heresy' notwithstanding) thus proving man's natural role as master. Certain Imperial texts even make the biologically unlikely assertion that woman cannot accept Space Marine geneseed due to the gender difference.

Only superb political connections, breeding, patronage, skill and luck can allow a woman to rise to the top in most Imperial organizations. But rest assured those who do are forces to be reckoned with.

However with constant war draining manpower there are whole towns and cities in the Imperium where the population consists entirely of women, children and the elderly. In environments like this women are able to prove themselves. At least until the next generation of young men come of age.

40k is a game aimed a young boys (and young at heart men) so it still follows a girls are icky world view. If they show up they're either aliens from a segregated culture (ie Battle Sisters, Necromunda Escher gangers), sexy (death cultists, the Catachan in her tank top) or somehow otherwise special. Normal healthy relationships between men and women are rare, off hand I can think of two, both from Abnett books.

So in my fluff I figure that reflects that attitudes of the Imperium. The bit about 'the Emperor was a man so men are awesome' bit is (unfortunately) almost directly stolen from the Catholic Church's arguement against women priests. The bit about geneseed is my cheap shot at fans who go bezerk at any suggestion of female marines. The bit about towns of women, elderly and children is also from real life, there are towns like that across China and Mexico where all the men have left. Though actually more and more the young women have left too and the towns have only the youngest and the oldest, with the working age people only coming back once a year.

And of course there can be all sorts of exceptions, I hear the Cain books have integrated IG forces, and Abnett is pretty good about including women in all sorts of roles.

They do PDF huh? I may just take you up on that...

That is very interesting with the women; I totally can understand that seeing them in armed forces/leadership positions would be a relative rarity in the Imperium, but yeah clearly it does happen. At least the Sister of Battle represent

Curious question - you say the bit about geneseed is your cheap shot at fans who go beserk at any suggestion at the idea of female marines, but I must ask then how canon is that? Or did you admittedly just make it up? XD (I do understand that what you wrote doesn't *actually* say if they can or can't, though)

In regards to what I was getting after originally - I think given all of this, I wanted to ask - at the lower class workers level, aren't women treated much more equally than men? It seems that a great deal of time there isn't much to be done, and the Imperium would probably make women and men work hand in hand (when they aren't giving birth/recovering/etc). So I'm just wondering, especially how men are so relatively desired - wouldn't women be at least as responsible for a great deal of the menial labor/factory work/etc. as the men?

I remember reading Titanicus by Dan abnett, and it kinda touched on what the average masses of a hive world do. They work.

Any job, anywhere, if they can get the job, they will. Pretty much the same as the average masses in today's cities.

I've never understood why some folk have a compulsion to take shots at people who get annoyed at the prospect of female Marines, it's not as if they're annoyed because they're rabid, women-fearing, misogynist manchildren.

It would be like feeling the need to take shots at someone if they were annoyed by the idea of "the Order of the Equal Opportunity", a People of Battle convent with male Battle People(because all women armies are sexist dontcha know) - their annoyance would be entirely justifiable.

Anyway, for your vehicles collection(I was a bit surprised not to see it);

The way I like to figure out what jobs would be available for any kind of world I would be on is I think what would drive the economy.

So lets go with Agriculture, someone before mentioned it was probably the most common type of world in the imperium. So From the start you have Farmers and farmhands.

Now that we have people who are farming they need a place to buy farm tools, so we have either craftsmen or manufacturers based off how the world is set up and maybe even some kind of merchant if everything on your world isn't factory direct.

There might be a scientist who specializes in soil or techniques for ridding a field of pestilence, if the place is too primitive there may be a shaman who claims to do the same thing and a priest would probably be more than willing to bless a field in the emperors name.

They need a way to get the crops to market, so some kind of transportation. Wagons, river boats, grav-trains, it all depends on the world you are trying to create to figure out how much technology you want to put into fulling a certain niche.

There are also a number of society roles that may need to be filled. So teachers, priests, law enforcement and beurocrats.

Just by doing that we come up with enough jobs to make a diverse community that is flexible enough to display any kind of imperial world you wish to potray.

The one warning i have is to stay away form 40k steriotypes. They are rarely true and rarely make any sense and way too many people believe them.

 Yodhrin wrote:
I've never understood why some folk have a compulsion to take shots at people who get annoyed at the prospect of female Marines, it's not as if they're annoyed because they're rabid, women-fearing, misogynist manchildren.

It would be like feeling the need to take shots at someone if they were annoyed by the idea of "the Order of the Equal Opportunity", a People of Battle convent with male Battle People(because all women armies are sexist dontcha know) - their annoyance would be entirely justifiable.

For me it's mostly because I've seen people post some cool conversion and even whole armies and then get torn apart for venturing the idea of female marines. Even the My Little Pony and Hello Kitty marines don't get the kind of hate well-painted and converted female marines do.

It's really just nuts.

Anyway, for your vehicles collection(I was a bit surprised not to see it);

That is cool. Is it from League of Extraordinary Gentlemen? That might be why I left it out, I burned all memory of that film from my mind....

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
I've never understood why some folk have a compulsion to take shots at people who get annoyed at the prospect of female Marines, it's not as if they're annoyed because they're rabid, women-fearing, misogynist manchildren.

It would be like feeling the need to take shots at someone if they were annoyed by the idea of "the Order of the Equal Opportunity", a People of Battle convent with male Battle People(because all women armies are sexist dontcha know) - their annoyance would be entirely justifiable.

For me it's mostly because I've seen people post some cool conversion and even whole armies and then get torn apart for venturing the idea of female marines. Even the My Little Pony and Hello Kitty marines don't get the kind of hate well-painted and converted female marines do.

It's really just nuts.

Fair enough, but for myself at least, I would hate on all of those armies equally

Anyway, for your vehicles collection(I was a bit surprised not to see it);

That is cool. Is it from League of Extraordinary Gentlemen? That might be why I left it out, I burned all memory of that film from my mind....

It is aye, I actually quite enjoyed the film. I imagine that the Imperial version would have big f'-off art-deco eagles on the front rather than the silver nautical detailing, and the seating section would probably take up a bit more of the vehicle's length, but this is pretty much what occurs to me when I think about upper-class 40k ground cars.

For those interested I've added some short stories to my articles spelling out how this whole thing might work.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Civilian_Life_in_40k_Part_2

The old Rogue Trader days used to go into civilian life and was very Judge Dredd-ish. Civilians driving hovercars through market places, teenage gangs spraying graffiti, even full-blown Space Marines enforcing the law on the street and giving pat downs to delienquents. Oh those were the simpler days....

 Yodhrin wrote:

Anyway, for your vehicles collection(I was a bit surprised not to see it);

That is cool. Is it from League of Extraordinary Gentlemen? That might be why I left it out, I burned all memory of that film from my mind....

It is aye, I actually quite enjoyed the film. I imagine that the Imperial version would have big f'-off art-deco eagles on the front rather than the silver nautical detailing, and the seating section would probably take up a bit more of the vehicle's length, but this is pretty much what occurs to me when I think about upper-class 40k ground cars.

It is a great car and totally fits with what I had in mind.

if I was hired to design a line of civilian cars for 40k (call me GW, I work cheap!) one of my rules would be they all have 6 wheels. No real reason, but it would mark them as different.

The Imperium is neither sexist or racist.

It is equally indifferent to everybody.