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I tried the Defiler last night as well (1500 point game against World Eaters). It can dish out a nasty amount of fire power but still suffers if it gets charged by the wrong unit.

Mine got charge by a squad of Berzerkers led by Kharn. He just ripped it apart. All his attacks hit (on a 2+) - then he's hitting at S6 with 2D6 against armour. Game over.

The Warpsmith paid for himself in my eyes purely by repairing a weapon destroyed on my Vindicator. the damn thigns never get to shoto normally He also went on to meltagun a terminator before getting zapped and insta-deathed by a lascannon. I'm thinking that, if you are an Iron Warriors player (and therefore will be using a Warpsmith quite often), it might be wise to equip your Warpsmith with either a 5++ or MON to make him more survivable (they are boththe same points cost). I would go MON since he has a 2+ save already.





Also - i'm still not understanding the berzerker-hate, i played with them (and against them) last night and they are still lethal on the charge. Mine jumped out a Rhino in turn 3 and proceeded to mop up the last 2 squads of infantry and claim the Relic in turns 4 and 5 - won me the game. As far as i can see they are just as good as before. they have lost a base attack btu they get it back on the charge anyway.

So is it that peopel think they are worse than before? Or is it that they have stayed pretty much the same while the other cult units have had a boost? i do really like the idea of plague marines - but they are so expensive for a decent sized unit.


EDIT - Just checked by codex and a berzker only has 1 base atatck - so the bonus for 2 CCWs is not included....so on the charge they would get Base 1 + 2CCW + rage = 4. Correct?

Yes.

Doh, played them wrong.

So even more than before - why the Berzerker hate?

Because in the second round of combat theyre down to 2 attacks, not 3

I don't think Berzerkers are terrible, but for an elite assault unit they are kinda lacklustre. Most of the time normal chaos marines with right gear can do their job more cheaply. If they had access to some better CC weapons (power axes and eviscerators would have been fitting) instead of plasma pistols they would be more appealing, and this would also better set them apart from regular Khorne marked CSM. Also, from modelling perspective the chainaxes are infuriating. It is an rather expensive upgrade you have to model, and it's completely useless against half of the armies in this game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Because in the second round of combat theyre down to 2 attacks, not 3

I think this forces you to use them in sufficiently large hordes that there won't be second round of combat.

Ok, i'll go along with the thought on ChainAxes.

I personally think they should have upped the price of them and made them S4 Rending.

It's always "nice" when something's more powerful... but I think this codex presents a strong sense of consistency and on some level I feel the way the Berzerkers have been done is a consistent representation, where in they're portrayed doing something particularly well and the rules portray that to the same degree.

on the subject of berzerkers....

MoK gives you Rage and Counter Attack.
Berzerkers have MoK and Furious Charge.
They also have 2 CCWs.

So on the charge they have 4 attacks (1 base, 1 CCW, 2 rage)

when they are charged they have 3 (1 base, 1 CCW, 1 counter attack).

That's still pretty decent if you ask me.

No, its what we used to have. You WANT to be in a second round of combat to avoid being shot, so A3 in the second round is an issue. We're still slower than we were in 3.5ed with talisman.

Chainaxes fall plainly into the "meh" range - i didnt need help killing 4+ saves, now i cant go before I4 models thanks to the stupid FC change i need something to help out with 3+. I still cannot take more than 1 special CCW *for a close combat unit* - no wytch like upgrades, no mark of the wulfen, no nothing. So many chances missed.

I agree that Berzerkers should have special close combat but the change to FC is a core rulebook change not the codex. So while that position is a legitimate issue with the unit it's not fair of the codex which is forced to conform to that core book.

Partially related, though mostly tangential I'm surprised dirge casters preventing overwatch doesn't get more attention given how much a big deal people make of that shooting.

Yeah, i've put that on all my tanks now....and Defilers. Melta Overwatch is it? I think not.

Also noticed that rhino with a second combi bolter and gargoyles is a bit mean too.