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 azazel the cat wrote:
I'll concede that the comparatively low price of Lord of Fire is a strong selling point for an already overpriced model. But that facet is unrelated to its actual function as a deterrent. And I don't think Lord of Fire negates the attack from a flamer, as there is no to-hit roll required for templates. So the Gets Hot might kill the model, but I believe the flamer attack still goes through.

It does not . Read the entry. It has nothing to do with the gets hot rule. Success or failure any shot fired within 12" of the LoF C'tan rolls an additional die. If it rolls a one it blows up in the models face and the take is lost.

It is a good deterrent and works well. Models with the gets hot rule have 2 chances to hurt themselves and often they do.

the biggest pain the monolith took in my opinion is its death rules changed. It used to always do something unless you Exploded it for the rest of the game. That irritated the crap out of me when i didnt cause it to Explode and he continues to use it. Now it doesnt have that rule.

Its still a nasty unit though, my friend insists on it even on 1k point games. Some times it owns my guts, others i rip it apart so fast he didnt even get to do anything.

Pg 43 necron codex as Necronlord3 said and the last line states " in either case the shot(s) are lost". I agree it's expensive melta deterrent but it can be affected.

As for the monolith I've found it can be effective at a variety of tasks. Kills marines, vehicles, draws fire, quickly redeploy unit, and you can hid anything behind it. Is it still over costed yes but it is still playable. Run it with spyders and opponents will rage, just my two cents

As I said earlier on another thread, the Monolith is best described as a "jack of all trades, master of none" vehicle.
Its fairly cheap for what it does (and it can do a lot!), but it won't do it as well as more dedicated units.

 azazel the cat wrote:
Huh. My mistake. I was under the impression that Lord of Fire caused an additional role for its effect.

Doesn't change the fact that it's a terrible deterrent because it's only a 1 in 6 chance.

It *is* a separate roll for the effect.


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 NecronLord3 wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
I'll concede that the comparatively low price of Lord of Fire is a strong selling point for an already overpriced model. But that facet is unrelated to its actual function as a deterrent. And I don't think Lord of Fire negates the attack from a flamer, as there is no to-hit roll required for templates. So the Gets Hot might kill the model, but I believe the flamer attack still goes through.

It does not . Read the entry. It has nothing to do with the gets hot rule. Success or failure any shot fired within 12" of the LoF C'tan rolls an additional die. If it rolls a one it blows up in the models face and the take is lost.

It is a good deterrent and works well. Models with the gets hot rule have 2 chances to hurt themselves and often they do.

You should say "models with Gets Hot and using flame based weapons", as there are some out there that are gets hot and not fire based. Kraken Bolts, I believe they're called, is one I can think of.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
Huh. My mistake. I was under the impression that Lord of Fire caused an additional role for its effect.

Doesn't change the fact that it's a terrible deterrent because it's only a 1 in 6 chance.

It *is* a separate roll for the effect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
I'll concede that the comparatively low price of Lord of Fire is a strong selling point for an already overpriced model. But that facet is unrelated to its actual function as a deterrent. And I don't think Lord of Fire negates the attack from a flamer, as there is no to-hit roll required for templates. So the Gets Hot might kill the model, but I believe the flamer attack still goes through.

It does not . Read the entry. It has nothing to do with the gets hot rule. Success or failure any shot fired within 12" of the LoF C'tan rolls an additional die. If it rolls a one it blows up in the models face and the take is lost.

It is a good deterrent and works well. Models with the gets hot rule have 2 chances to hurt themselves and often they do.

You should say "models with Gets Hot and using flame based weapons", as there are some out there that are gets hot and not fire based. Kraken Bolts, I believe they're called, is one I can think of.

No as having the "gets hot" rule does not trigger the effect. It must use the flame template or use fire or flame in its description to trigger the LoF rule. It can be a direct fire weapon that simply indicates it is an element of fire in some way in its fluff or all melta attacks as well.

Your statement though was referencing only "models with gets hot will have 2 chances to hurt themselves" which is only true if the gets hot weapon also meets the requirements for a Lord of Fire test.

It is not "all template weapons" it is "all flamer weapons", the cryptek Abyssal Staff would not suffer from it, as an example.

All I was saying was that your previous statement was a little too "all encompassing" and I was just trying to clarify it for future readers.

My comment about kraken bolts was an example of a gets hot weapon that doesn't use "fire" as it's method of damage. At least I do not believe they do.

 Kevin949 wrote:
Your statement though was referencing only "models with gets hot will have 2 chances to hurt themselves" which is only true if the gets hot weapon also meets the requirements for a Lord of Fire test.

It is not "all template weapons" it is "all flamer weapons", the cryptek Abyssal Staff would not suffer from it, as an example.

All I was saying was that your previous statement was a little too "all encompassing" and I was just trying to clarify it for future readers.

My comment about kraken bolts was an example of a gets hot weapon that doesn't use "fire" as it's method of damage. At least I do not believe they do.

Ah, I misread what you said, you are correct.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Removing the deepstrike immunity was a completely stupid move.

I agree. They would be much better if they had kept their old deep-striking rules at the new point cost. Definitely very risky to drop a monolith onto any table that has an average amount of terrain.

But then again, my middle name is "Danger"

But they also upheld that stupid rule that if the model is bigger than 6" then it can't move on to the board when arriving from reserve and instead made it a rule that you have to deep strike it from reserve. The trade off should have been that yes you have to deepstrike it but you have immunity from mishaps. Freakin' drop pods have immunity like they are invulnerable and can't be shot out of the sky by even the most powerful weaponry. But ominous teleporting buildings can be.

2 Monoliths? 1 maybe, but as MonsterRain said it competes with the Annihilation Barge which is one of the best buys in the codex. I can see maybe taking one, but two is pushing it.

At the beginning of 6th I was all in favor of taking a Monolith. It still had a jink save which Zahndrekh could make a 4+. This caused the enemy to prioritize the Monolith to much. Now it lost the jink save and it might not be worth taking anymore.

Early on in 6th I also thought the Monolith was the Necron answer to the Harliestar. Just suck them through the portal and be done with them. Now I don't see the Harliestar at all anymore so it's a waste.

About the best use for the Monolith right now is with Zahndrekh. Put it in reserve and let him bring it out with phased reinforcements on your opponents turn. You can drop it away from podders or behind a flyer designed to kill it. Then on your following turn you can begin to bring units through the portal and away from your initial deployment. In this way you can create a feint on the battlefield and hopefully gain some use for that.

With 2 Monoliths you can try the same thing with Zahndrekh, but you'll need more of a foot presence than most current lists feel comfortable in taking.

Surprised no one has brought up spyders with claws. When I use a monolith I run 3 spyders with the repairing claws hiding behind it to put hull points back on if any should be removed since it's a large fire magnet. Most armies need a couple turns to take 4 HP off AV14 and with the spyders putting them back on you can extend it's life significantly.

Also with the spyders you can continue to produce scarabs which you can place in congo line fashion between your monolith(s) and the threatening meltas.

Also they make great cover for c'tan's, Currently I am running a monolith with 3 spyders, a c'tan, and a full scarab swarm. They support each other nicely with the mono giving cover for the c'tan and spyders, scarabs providing blocking for mono, spyders supplying more scarabs and returning HP for mono. They work pretty autonomously not needing support from the rest of your army and they provide a real threat to your opponent 4 monstrous creatures and a str8 Ordnance can mess with anything.

Basically what I would suggest is that If you are taking 2 monoliths make sure your 3rd heavy choice is 3 spyders with claws, because it sucks to have monoliths go down to HPs. Monolith's can still be good in 6th edition you just have to support them, which makes them a worse choice to most who prefer the annihilation barges or doomscythes which don't require any support to be effective and can just do it alone. If your going to run a monolith you have to make it the core of your army in order to get the most out of it, its just not a you have 200pts auto include anymore.

As for the lord of fire, I don't find it that useful for a c'tan, it is just a 1 in 6 chance and with it's 12" range you don't cover enough. Assuming your hiding your ctan behind the mono, then multi-meltas can't be hurt by it even in double tap range. And melta guns are only affected by it when they are poorly placed in 6" of the mono. Since the monolith is so bloody big (6" if I remember correctly) your opponent can place his meltas so that they still hit the monolith while being over 12" away from ctan. And if your ctan is in front of the monolith he doesn't get the protection of the monolith and can be brought down by small arms.

^^

Punisher gets it.

Mono+Spyders

To do what? You spend a lot of points to defend your monolith but what is it going to accomplish? Its guns are bottom tier, the teleport function won't be that useful anyway given the scarabs which are always around and a Vindicare (not uncommon at all) screws your entire list.

The Monolith is no threat so why priorize it? Because of it's AP3 template? Haven't played vs. IG then.

Sure, for a fun list, it's cool. But then again, everything is. Compeitive-wise, I'd rather take effing FO than a Monolith.

 Sigvatr wrote:
To do what? You spend a lot of points to defend your monolith but what is it going to accomplish? Its guns are bottom tier, the teleport function won't be that useful anyway given the scarabs which are always around and a Vindicare (not uncommon at all) screws your entire list.

The Monolith is no threat so why priorize it? Because of it's AP3 template? Haven't played vs. IG then.

Sure, for a fun list, it's cool. But then again, everything is. Compeitive-wise, I'd rather take effing FO than a Monolith.

While the spyders and scarabs are protecting the monolith, the monolith is also protecting your army. Not many units can advance on a str8 ap3 blast with 4 monstrous creatures hiding behind it. If your opponent ignores it then he's giving free advancement of your C'tan(who is hugging the ass of the mono) who once in combat can do wonderful things especially against a IG tank line. Scarabs also aren't just there to protect the mono, they can also chew threw armour or tie up a unit. And the spyder are supporting both the mono and the scarabs.

Now a vindicator is a very good tank and can threaten the monolith with it's blast but you still have the rest of your army build. Normally when I play I have very mobile troops with very strong anti-tank weapons. A Nightscythe carrying warriors and 1 or 2 stormteks will guarantee you a tank kill. There is more to your army than just this part, also with the vindicator it has a relatively short threat range (only 30") so if he can threaten you than you can threaten it with your own ordnance weapon.

Any IG player will tear this army to shreds in turn 1. The monlolith is almost auto-hit by any template, not to mention the scarabs.

A lot of units can easily advance vs. a monlith and his gun - AP3 does not mean much when you still get cover saves.

See, I don't want to be hostile here. I love the monolith model. But the combo is extremely expensive and does nothing. We are looking at at least 850 points (!!!) here thus almost half of your entire points limit and you do not have any ranged weapon yet despite the monolith's crystal. And be aware that the crystal doesn't do anything to vehicles with AP3.

Hiding behind the monolith will not work either as it can move up to 6'' a turn. Half of your army will be extremely immobile - and that's a death sentence in 6th unless you're IG and have actual chances to blow everything up before it can score. Any army (well, most of them) will have a field day vs. such a combo as it can easily outmaneuver most of such a list.

Now, you talked about adding flyers. Let's assume you get two flyers with 5 Warriors / 1 Stormtek each. Suddelny, you're at ~1400 points and you do not have anything that can capture objectives (the Warriors are a fire-and-forget unit as they will be destroyed immediately after killing a tank). Furthermore, you will lose at least 1 flyer before he even gets to his target due to ADL / Bastions.

You now have 450 points left, barely have any shooting and nothing to score.

To sum it up: you'd have a slow moving army with low firepower...in 6th, that's the worst thing that could happen to you.

If you played vs a balanced list, you'd be likely to be tabled / surrender by turn 3 - Wraiths, Heavy Destroyers and a Destrocourt along with a ADL make short work of such a list.

Again, I do not want to be hostile and I do not want to offend you. I am criticizing the list, not you as the player.

I kind of wish I could take an allied detachment of the old Necron Codex. Any large point sink needs to be good at taking a lot of fire, else I expect to lose them too easily. 200 points on the Monolith isnt that bad, especially compared to certain C'tan builds, but that's a lot of points to lose with a couple crappy die rolls. I'd take 15 warriors or two Annihilation Barges and a Solar Pulse over a Monolith any day. Just seems like a more efficient use of points.

I don't know, everyone poo poo's the particle whip but it's still a MEQ killer, it's still ordnance and a good light armor popper. And even though the flux arcs got a bit of a nerf, they did get increased range and are still gauss weapons.

I've fielded 2+ monoliths in multiple games since the new codex (against black templar, vanilla marines, nids, chaos and tau) and I still rarely lose 1. Granted, I've lost monoliths more in the new codex then I did in the old codex but I haven't felt like they received quite the sting I first thought they did.

Granted, I did have one game where the portal of exile removed my buddies termy sergeant AND Special Character HQ in one sweep. That was FANTASTIC.

All that being said, I would not only ever take 1. If I can't take 2+, I don't take any.

I just don't really see the point in them. Maybe keeping some short ranged unit safe until a couple turns into the game when you can bring them into the middle? It's a very expensive crappy battle cannon in my opinion.

Pie plates are more useful now, and I like the idea of the no LOS it gives you but I'd be a lot happier if I felt safe deep striking the thing or if the flux arcs were any source of damage.
The eternity gate thing is a neat trick given it will probably take a few turns to wipe out in close combat but tests tend to be a really crappy way to get anything done.

 Lucre wrote:
I just don't really see the point in them. Maybe keeping some short ranged unit safe until a couple turns into the game when you can bring them into the middle? It's a very expensive crappy battle cannon in my opinion.

Pie plates are more useful now, and I like the idea of the no LOS it gives you but I'd be a lot happier if I felt safe deep striking the thing or if the flux arcs were any source of damage.
The eternity gate thing is a neat trick given it will probably take a few turns to wipe out in close combat but tests tend to be a really crappy way to get anything done.

Ya, it really doesn't make sense to me either why they made the flux arcs essentially gauss flayers but Heavy. *Ugh*

The eternity gate is really a fall back weapon to take out a unit that is too close to patty, or your whip got destroyed.

Remember, it's an auto-hit weapon that is basically forcing an armor save against MEQ with insta-gib ability to eternal warriors and such.

Yes I know it's a strength test but passing a STR test on a 1-4 is the same as passing an armor save on a 3-6.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but why isn't a Monolith "deepstrike immune"?

The thing is that on average, the portal has a pitiful range of 3'' - which is far into the instant-death range for all vehicles. I can't even imagine a situation where a monolith would get so close to an enemy...

I have already played vs a list with 3 monoliths and it's been...disheartening. 2 Monoliths have been destroyed by turn 3 and the one that came close enough was rapid-fired down to bits by my GA+Warriors...my blob was hit by the templates, but what do I care...4+ RP with and a 3+ cover save (thanks Zandrekh!) along with restocking GA. Oh, Nightfight really helped me out too. Huarhuar. Won 12-0.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Apaosa wrote:
Perhaps I'm missing something, but why isn't a Monolith "deepstrike immune"?

No longer has the old rule from the 3rd ed codex. Only the Drop Pod has it now. Of course, I mean, how could Necrons DARE having a bonus SM had too? And yeah, why should the biggest vehicle in the game not be destroyed by a single grot? Makes perfect sense to me.

But what do I care. Sold my monoliths for a very good price. Good night, sweet princes. Goodbye.

 Sigvatr wrote:
The thing is that on average, the portal has a pitiful range of 3'' - which is far into the instant-death range for all vehicles. I can't even imagine a situation where a monolith would get so close to an enemy...

I have already played vs a list with 3 monoliths and it's been...disheartening. 2 Monoliths have been destroyed by turn 3 and the one that came close enough was rapid-fired down to bits by my GA+Warriors...my blob was hit by the templates, but what do I care...4+ RP with and a 3+ cover save (thanks Zandrekh!) along with restocking GA. Oh, Nightfight really helped me out too. Huarhuar. Won 12-0.

You can't really compare a monoliths usefulness against another necron army, "every" vehicle will crumble to necrons in short order.

Yes, the range on the portal is pathetic, I admit. Again, my success with it was against termies. They deep struck right behind my back lines, failed to destroy it with the ranged weapons they had (I had a number of other higher priority targets for my opponent to shoot) and they were gearing up to assault it next turn (chain fists and the like). They did end up destroying it, but they were about 2" from my monolith when they DS'd in after run moves. I knew it was a goner either way, so I moved it as close as legally possible, fired it off, and took away...what, like 300 points of models? Special HQ + Termie Sarge. I think they were sword brethren termies.

Ya, I don't think I've lost any games against my buddies yet with the new dex. Well, I think the very first game with the new dex I did lose. I've tied once or twice, but the rest have been wins. No idea on amount of games. 20+ since the dex came out.

Wouldn't the skimmer rules on Pg 83 prevent it from a mishap by landing on units? Granted, impassible and board edge would still grant a mishap.

Thanks for the clarification! I did not want to make a generalization though, just wanted to share some personal experience - and since I only have one army, I can't offer much more experience

The two other ones were destroyed by my Heavy Destroyers though - Zandrekh with Tank Hunter goes a long way.

In the end, I agree with the Jack-of-all-trades thingy to some degree...guns are terrible, lack of deepstrike immunity makes it a lackluster transporter...in the end, a Land Raider surpasses the monolith in all areas. Better weaponry, smoke launcher (often overlooked, but very important), better transport...meh.

They should have made the Monolith a good support vehicle. Keep the teleport function that allows for We Will Be Back re-rolls. keep deepstrike immunity, lose the Portal of Exile offensive ability, add the "Come in from reserves" rule from the new codex, all at the current price tag. Done.

Now...they suffer the C'Tan fate. Awesome model, terrible rules. Obviously...AB is awesome, cheap and cost 29€. Why not make the monolith good? What would look more impressive to kids? A small AB or a huge Monolith (note the capital "M" here as I refer to the old one...)? Same with the C'Tan...sigh. Good ol' times. Nostalgia :(

 Kevin949 wrote:


Ya, I don't think I've lost any games against my buddies yet with the new dex. Well, I think the very first game with the new dex I did lose. I've tied once or twice, but the rest have been wins. No idea on amount of games. 20+ since the dex came out.

Lost 3, 2 of them were flyerspam lists, 1 vs IG gunline. It's an extremely tough uphill fight if you got a balanced list and play vs. lamers.

I don't think that they are nearly as good as some people are saying OR nearly as bad as others are saying.
The internet is so polarizing in that way.
Things that are good:
1. They are big! You have mobile LOS blocking terrain!
2. They have a big gun! You can gib MEQs to DEATH!
3. They have little guns too that can fire like, all over!
4. They have a special rule "gun" that can, once in a great while, do something awesome!
5. They can redeploy your guys midgame!
6. They can deploy via deep strike! Behind enemy lines? On an objective?! Phased re-enforcements anyone?
7. They can be repaired by Spyders!
8. AV14 all the way around that ignores shaken and stunned most of the time.

All of those pretty cool things can be done for 200 points. I look over to my Chaos codex and see for a mere 30pts MORE I can get a Land Raider... which can carry 5 terminators than can assault?! And fire a few lascannon shots?
Of all of the things that hurt the monolith, I don't think it is overcosted for what it is and what it can do.

The bads?
1. Its big!!! It can't hide!!!
2. Nothing to save it from poor deep strikes!
3. Short ranged guns!
4. Portal is way too limited as an offensive weapon!
5. You can't assault out of it! (I think if you could, the Monolith would be nearly 12001 times better)
6. Can be melta'd!
7. Slow!!! NO JINK!

I don't know. I think 2 Monoliths would be the way to go, use them to help block LOS to your stuff, keep them up to snuff with Spyders, leave the C'tan at home, get your Tesla Destructors from night scythes, use lots of 5 man troop units, bounce your units around where needed the most, use Zahndrek... seems like you can make a nice little non-cheesy army that could win more than it loses.
I say, go for it and report back!

Correct me if I am wrong, but to me, it seems that you suggest flyerspam with Monoliths instead of regular flyerspam.

My question to you then: would the 2 Monoliths outperform 2 Doom Scythes?

I certainly disagree. Furthermore, you got a risky list there with no actual scoring units.

I did use monoliths and compared to Monoliths, they fail. Well, that can happen, but compared to the other stuff we can get in the same slot, they fall short too and offer little synergy for the overall rest of our army - and thus go from god tier to below-average tier.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, but to me, it seems that you suggest flyerspam with Monoliths instead of regular flyerspam.

My question to you then: would the 2 Monoliths outperform 2 Doom Scythes?

I certainly disagree. Furthermore, you got a risky list there with no actual scoring units.

I did use monoliths and compared to Monoliths, they fail. Well, that can happen, but compared to the other stuff we can get in the same slot, they fall short too and offer little synergy for the overall rest of our army - and thus go from god tier to below-average tier.

I will correct you because you are wrong

I am not advocating flyer spam with less flyers,... because that is not flyer spam. I am advocating, wait for it, ... a balanced list.
I don't know what prices this would all come out as but I was thinking something like:
Zahndrek
Stormteks/Lanceteks
6 x 5 Warriors or Telsamortals
2 x Night Scythe
2 x Monolith
1 x 3 Spyders, set of claws (probably 2 sets?)
1 x 10 Scarabs
1 x squad - o - wraiths with a d-lord?

I dunno, seems like you could make some stuff happen. You different threats, different delievery systems, good amounts of fire power, Zahndrek,... what could go wrong?

 Sigvatr wrote:
Thanks for the clarification! I did not want to make a generalization though, just wanted to share some personal experience - and since I only have one army, I can't offer much more experience

The two other ones were destroyed by my Heavy Destroyers though - Zandrekh with Tank Hunter goes a long way.

In the end, I agree with the Jack-of-all-trades thingy to some degree...guns are terrible, lack of deepstrike immunity makes it a lackluster transporter...in the end, a Land Raider surpasses the monolith in all areas. Better weaponry, smoke launcher (often overlooked, but very important), better transport...meh.

They should have made the Monolith a good support vehicle. Keep the teleport function that allows for We Will Be Back re-rolls. keep deepstrike immunity, lose the Portal of Exile offensive ability, add the "Come in from reserves" rule from the new codex, all at the current price tag. Done.

Now...they suffer the C'Tan fate. Awesome model, terrible rules. Obviously...AB is awesome, cheap and cost 29€. Why not make the monolith good? What would look more impressive to kids? A small AB or a huge Monolith (note the capital "M" here as I refer to the old one...)? Same with the C'Tan...sigh. Good ol' times. Nostalgia :(

 Kevin949 wrote:


Ya, I don't think I've lost any games against my buddies yet with the new dex. Well, I think the very first game with the new dex I did lose. I've tied once or twice, but the rest have been wins. No idea on amount of games. 20+ since the dex came out.

Lost 3, 2 of them were flyerspam lists, 1 vs IG gunline. It's an extremely tough uphill fight if you got a balanced list and play vs. lamers.

Wait, so, you were playing against someone that was using part of your army as well?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, but to me, it seems that you suggest flyerspam with Monoliths instead of regular flyerspam.

My question to you then: would the 2 Monoliths outperform 2 Doom Scythes?

I certainly disagree. Furthermore, you got a risky list there with no actual scoring units.

I did use monoliths and compared to Monoliths, they fail. Well, that can happen, but compared to the other stuff we can get in the same slot, they fall short too and offer little synergy for the overall rest of our army - and thus go from god tier to below-average tier.

Outperform two doom scythes in doing what? I would say, probably yes, in some aspects. Doom scythes aren't guaranteed to come on the board until turn 4. Yes, you can bring zahndrekh but let's not add in extras when doing a straight comparison.

That said, Doom scythes are fast, but they can be too fast. Sometimes limiting what they can shoot at. Their secondary gun does put out a lot of hits but will always allow armor saves. The main gun can't skyfire. All the weapons have about the same range, though really the death ray is pretty short ranged, on average. Even with the best roll, it's only 4" farther than any gun on the monolith (but that is NOT effective range, as you can only ever get 18" of damaging range on it).

Ya, it's a little harder to take down due to Hard to Hit, but not impossible, and even just one 4+ result on the damage die will cripple it badly.

The best thing it has going for it is it's ability to take out high armor targets. But you're probably only going to get one shot with it against those targets before it flies away for at least two turns repositioning.

Why doesn't a Monolith have jink? It's a skimmer, right?