Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

DarthMarko wrote:IMHO most superstitious chapter of bunch, which upholds their oaths to the Emp and IT , gets inspected by a REAL superstitious fanatics who were founded by archeretic Lorgar...

Fatidicus.

Different guy, different cult.

Admiral Valerian wrote:Is the relationship between the Space Wolves and the 'modern' Imperium that bad?

Sort of. The Segmentum Pacificus Navy bombarded Fenris in M36. In M41, the Ecclesiarchy sent the Sisters of Battle in response to the Space Wolves murdering a bunch of priests. And they don't like the Inquisition and the Administratum either ever since they were unable to prevent the quarantine internment imposed on the surviving Imperial forces of the First War of Armageddon.

"Since that day Grimnar has held an abiding hatred for the Adepts of the Administratum, and his vows of vengeance for the heroes of Armageddon will one day be fulfilled."
- 5E C:SW

The SW are pretty much the most isolationalist bunch amongst all the Loyalist Chapters, I think, having bad blood with just about any Imperial adeptus. Since they are rather popular, however, and the timeline stops at M41 anyways, there won't be any consequences for such ongoing shenanigans. They pretty much seem to have a "get out of jail free" card when it comes to showing the IoM the finger, really making use of their legendary status as a First Founding Chapter.

 Lynata wrote:

DarthMarko wrote:IMHO most superstitious chapter of bunch, which upholds their oaths to the Emp and IT , gets inspected by a REAL superstitious fanatics who were founded by archeretic Lorgar...

Fatidicus.

Different guy, different cult.

Yeah, but the MO (Emperor-worship) was no different.

Admiral Valerian wrote:Is the relationship between the Space Wolves and the 'modern' Imperium that bad?

Sort of. The Segmentum Pacificus Navy bombarded Fenris in M36.

Was this during the Plague of Unbelief part of Imperial history I read about?

They pretty much seem to have a "get out of jail free" card when it comes to showing the IoM the finger, really making use of their legendary status as a First Founding Chapter.

Well, if you are well-known for being a favored legion of the Emperor, then its not like a theocratic empire (wherein the Emperor is the god) can just throw you away, and Astartes are supposed to be very difficult to replace, so...

Admiral Valerian wrote:Was this during the Plague of Unbelief part of Imperial history I read about?

It was - hey, you're already rather well informed for someone who just came to the franchise following stories of the Heresy.

The full story can be found on Lexicanum. I usually advise against directly absorbing the stuff on the wikis rather than studying the source(s) directly, but in this case it's a 1:1 quote rather than user interpretation:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Plague_of_Unbelief

Admiral Valerian wrote:Well, if you are well-known for being a favored legion of the Emperor, then its not like a theocratic empire (wherein the Emperor is the god) can just throw you away, and Astartes are supposed to be very difficult to replace, so...

The problem I'd see is that they have made so many enemies in high places, I suppose few would actually care if they're gone. Astartes Chapters have been destroyed for less, but I can only assume that their fighting prowess is so incredibly impressive that they are granted unique exception from usual standards. After all, how many Marine Chapters can boast having the ability to defend their world against an entire Segmentum?

It's up to you if you find that epic or over the top - I know I made my judgment.

Yep they are epic...and look at this for epicness - http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Months_of_Shame

Fact is they are not so over the top but rather legends, and first founding legion who inspires billions of IG, and only reason why IoM didn't kill them is fear that another chapter will come to their aid, which would lead to another heresy...(the Emperor's gift)

Dirty part and off topic : My opinion is that GW would rather kill sisters 10000 times before any first founding legion...


And btw @Lynata don't get me started with sister powers and over the top fluff - please...
Btw false prophets and madmen leading rebel armies is ok by you? I bet you like them more than Adeptus Astartes...

 Lynata wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:Was this during the Plague of Unbelief part of Imperial history I read about?

It was - hey, you're already rather well informed for someone who just came to the franchise following stories of the Heresy.

The full story can be found on Lexicanum. I usually advise against directly absorbing the stuff on the wikis rather than studying the source(s) directly, but in this case it's a 1:1 quote rather than user interpretation:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Plague_of_Unbelief

The Horus Heresy novels are cool and all, but there's a bigger franchise out there (really impressed by BFG) however the wikipedia entry on the Warhammer 40k universe was less than satisfying, so I went surfing. Well, I tried Warhammer 40k wiki first, but it was kinda, unbelievable...so I tried Lexicanum instead.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Lynata wrote:

DarthMarko wrote:IMHO most superstitious chapter of bunch, which upholds their oaths to the Emp and IT , gets inspected by a REAL superstitious fanatics who were founded by archeretic Lorgar...

Fatidicus.

Different guy, different cult.

Yeah, but the MO (Emperor-worship) was no different.

This is too good....

I've been reading up on events after the Horus Heresy on Lexicanum...don't know if this is relevant, but apparently the Astartes do have significant political power.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Abyssal_Crusade#.ULSLY-STwo5

The only surviving (or rather, remained loyal) Chapter that came back practically destroyed an Imperial Saint, and the Imperial leadership didn't do/couldn't do anything to stop them - even though the Chapter was virtually exhausted.

 Lynata wrote:
No, no, you misunderstood - that was referring to the players.

It seems that a lot of people here dislike the whole Ecclesiarchy bit of the background (possibly due to dragging real life concerns into the game), but I've never actually seen anyone sounding that negative about the Mechanicus or some of the more weird traditions of certain Marine Chapters. It's like a lot of fans are really applying double standards.

To players? I don't know about that, many of my friend whoa re also into 40k thinks that Imperial Creed idea is cool. It is after all in Human nature to explain things like the Emperor like "something divine". Mechanicus is a different thing, to me it is more like the situation when you pray after hours of repairing your car engine that it will start. Just add Machine God to the equation and you got Mechanicus, witch is kind o awesome in it's own way.
But yeah, Ecclisiarchy reminds everyone on Medieval Church and we all know how nice guys were back then.

DarthMarko wrote:And btw @Lynata don't get me started with sister powers and over the top fluff - please...

Now I'm curious as to what you may be referring to, given the ongoing martyrdom theme.

DarthMarko wrote:Btw false prophets and madmen leading rebel armies is ok by you? I bet you like them more than Adeptus Astartes...

Define "ok".
I'm not here to advocate my real life political positions, but because I dig certain grimdark aspects of a dystopical sci-fi setting. I'm an atheist RL and dislike organised religion for the same reasons I like the Ecclesiarchy as a facet of the Imperium of Man in the world of 40k.

At times I do think some fans allow their real world views to creep into how they view the setting too much. Gets especially weird if you occasionally think people referring to their favourite faction as "we" around here.

And of course I like the Ecclesiarchy more than the Astartes. They're generally crazier, more grimdark, and less OTT than many of the "epic" Marine Chapters. Doesn't mean I would want to miss out on them. The Astartes are part of the setting, and their inability to keep the Imperium together, their failures largely originating in their own inflated pride and self-assumed superiority, does add its own taste of tragedy to the overall setting. Not to mention that their armour just looks cool.

I think certain Chapters would require a retcon to make them fit in better with the rest of GW's writing, but that is something for another topic.

Admiral Valerian wrote:The Horus Heresy novels are cool and all, but there's a bigger franchise out there (really impressed by BFG) however the wikipedia entry on the Warhammer 40k universe was less than satisfying, so I went surfing. Well, I tried Warhammer 40k wiki first, but it was kinda, unbelievable...so I tried Lexicanum instead.

Lexicanum is a good start both for gauging the general style of the setting as well as getting a list of sources - but ultimately nothing beats reading the sources themselves.

Let me tell you straight away: There is no uniform canon in this franchise, different books will tell you different things. The problem with wikis like Lexicanum as well as this forum itself is that people tend to throw everything together in an attempt to craft a single vision of it. This in itself is not problematic - it just ultimately depends on what exactly you have been reading and, as such, is an individual thing.

Whenever you see me quoting or talking about something, it's usually from one of GW's codices or their websites, but that doesn't mean it can not be contradicted by some novel or whatever. When such contradictions arise, neither version is "wrong" - they exist simultaneously and side by side, and it depends entirely on you as the individual gamer/reader which you prefer. This way, GW intends to allow you to "make the setting your own", and your own ideas are as valid as those of some random novel or even a Codex (it's just that most people are going by Codex fluff on default, I think).

Anyways, just something to keep in mind as you delve deeper into the setting. I'm sure you will still enjoy the reading, there's lots of cool stuff to be found, not to mention the artworks!

Admiral Valerian wrote:I've been reading up on events after the Horus Heresy on Lexicanum...don't know if this is relevant, but apparently the Astartes do have significant political power.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Abyssal_Crusade#.ULSLY-STwo5
The only surviving (or rather, remained loyal) Chapter that came back practically destroyed an Imperial Saint, and the Imperial leadership didn't do/couldn't do anything to stop them - even though the Chapter was virtually exhausted.

Wasn't it more than one Chapter? I have to re-read that passage in the 6E rulebook.
But you forget that this Saint apparently had enough political power himself to threaten no less than 30 full Marine Chapters with termination.

I have to admit, I was surprised at both Basilius' own power as well as that of the surviving Astartes. Normally, neither should have that much influence over another adeptus. I can only assume that (a) Basilius was, for a time, so influential that the High Lords themselves backed his opinion, but that (b) later on, the aging Saint had lost this favour and thus became vulnerable to the enemies he had made himself. It is quite possible that he even became a liability and other powers within the Imperium wanted him "gone". He had lost his value as a figurehead and, as the text tells us, was just an old, frail man as the Marines returned for him.

Normally, there is a status quo between the Imperial adepta that simply sees the Space Marines stand apart from Imperial internal politics. There is a token connection in the form of the Tech-Marines or the Chaplains' Ecclesiarchy-supplied Rosarius, but other than that the organisations pretty much leave one another alone - save for the occasional bloody conflict, usually instigated by influential individuals who get in way over their head. Ministorumwise, the Sisters of Battle probably get dragged into this infighting the most, especially as they also act as the Ordo Hereticus' executioners when a rogue Chapter is excommunicated and needs killing. Fortunately, the theological differences usually do not taint their respect for one another as warriors, and they fight side by side more often than against each other (depending on the Chapter of course).

Ultimately, political influence waxes and wanes with whoever is at the head of an organisation and how much that faction wishes to partake in controlling everyday Imperial life. The shady Inquisition always stands above all, however, be them High Lords or Chapter Masters: http://web.archive.org/web/20070202084000/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/clions.html

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:.To players? I don't know about that, many of my friend whoa re also into 40k thinks that Imperial Creed idea is cool. It is after all in Human nature to explain things like the Emperor like "something divine". Mechanicus is a different thing, to me it is more like the situation when you pray after hours of repairing your car engine that it will start. Just add Machine God to the equation and you got Mechanicus, witch is kind o awesome in it's own way.
But yeah, Ecclisiarchy reminds everyone on Medieval Church and we all know how nice guys were back then.

Or even today, at times.
Sounds like a lot of focus on a single facet of both monolithig organisations, though. There is another side to the Ecclesiarchy (shotgun-wielding Warrior-Priests, Scholae Progenium, Orders Hospitaller) just as there is to the AdMech (lobotomised servitors, monopolisation of knowledge, technological recession). Imho, it's all cool somehow, though. It all adds flavour to the setting, and I feel 40k would "miss" something if you'd take any part away, be it the Marines, the Church, the Tech-Priests, the kilometer-long flying cathedrals of the Navy ...

There may have been more than one that came back loyal, but Lexicanum only named the Vorpal Swords. Anyway, the whole problem with the post-Heresy Imperium (to me, at least) is that the current Imperial leadership is trying to hold up an edifice that was never meant to be held up in that manner.

Admiral Valerian wrote:Anyway, the whole problem with the post-Heresy Imperium (to me, at least) is that the current Imperial leadership is trying to hold up an edifice that was never meant to be held up in that manner.

Going by the Emperor, that is certainly true - the question remains, what's the alternative? It was deemed necessary/inevitable back then, and now it's too late to just abandon it.
Perhaps there was a point sometime in the first couple hundred years after the Emperor's death where the situation could have been salvaged in a different way, but the people in power made different choices, or opted for indifference over intervention. The biggest tragedy was that, unlike many such events in our real world history, this was allowed to go on so long. Yet with the Imperium beset by enemies on all sides, there is little room for reformation. Stagnation means stability, and stability means life.

In a way, 40k as a setting also acts like a dark mirror for all that's wrong with humanity in its current state. Just like Star Trek is an ideal utopia showing us our species' potential, Warhammer 40k is like a big warning sign cautioning us to be careful about the paths we choose. The really sad thing is that I deem the latter much more realistic than the former.

 Lynata wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:Anyway, the whole problem with the post-Heresy Imperium (to me, at least) is that the current Imperial leadership is trying to hold up an edifice that was never meant to be held up in that manner.

Going by the Emperor, that is certainly true - the question remains, what's the alternative? It was deemed necessary/inevitable back then, and now it's too late to just abandon it.

Somehow, I get the feeling some within the Imperium's current leadership know the Imperium needs to change, but at the same time fear that the 'cure just might kill the patient'.

Perhaps there was a point sometime in the first couple hundred years after the Emperor's death where the situation could have been salvaged in a different way, but the people in power made different choices, or opted for indifference over intervention.

I've posted this before, and I'll post it again: poor Malcador...if you had survived, the Imperium might not have fallen.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


I've posted this before, and I'll post it again: poor Malcador...if you had survived, the Imperium might not have fallen.

Could Malcador have shown the people that Gods do not exist though, after the Heresy and the actions of the Emperor surely the people would have put more faith into him and the Diviniatus spread more?

Perhaps Malcador would have seen the benefits of a singular belief sooner and instigated the adoption of the Imperial Faith sooner, the Imperium could have benefited from being united as one a whole lot sooner after the Heresy.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


I've posted this before, and I'll post it again: poor Malcador...if you had survived, the Imperium might not have fallen.

Could Malcador have shown the people that Gods do not exist though, after the Heresy and the actions of the Emperor surely the people would have put more faith into him and the Diviniatus spread more?

Perhaps Malcador would have seen the benefits of a singular belief sooner and instigated the adoption of the Imperial Faith sooner, the Imperium could have benefited from being united as one a whole lot sooner after the Heresy.

I don't think so. Malcador was the Lord of the Imperial Administration; and even on the eve of the Siege of Terra, he had Imperial forces violently suppressing Emperor-worshipers (The Outcast Dead). If resources were being diverted to suppress proscribed cults during the eve of the final battle, I prefer to think Malcador would have stood by the Imperial Truth even after the Siege of Terra.