Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

hellpato wrote:
The CSM's codex is competitive. If people dont find it competitive, that mean the SM codex isnt competite. CSM codex and SM codex are now good twin bad twin. All you need is having a lot of CSM and avoid mutilator, raptor and spawn.

For myself, if find it more boring than the 4 and 5 ed and I saw most of CSM player played Plague marines.

Um, spawn with a juggerlord might be the best pairing in a codex that I've played. Don't avoid them.

The CSM's codex is competitive. If people dont find it competitive, that mean the SM codex isnt competite. CSM codex and SM codex are now good twin bad twin. All you need is having a lot of CSM and avoid mutilator, raptor and spawn.

For myself, if find it more boring than the 4 and 5 ed and I saw most of CSM player played Plague marines.

I'd have to agree with the above poster. Your quote there makes little sense. Spawn are one of the few bright spots in this dex. Also, Plague marines are probably STILL the most played option from the book. There's a reason one of its nicknames is "Codex Nurgle or Nothing". Also, can you explain what you mean about CSM and C:SM being "good and bad twins"? They are really pretty much nothing alike.

 Lobukia wrote:

hellpato wrote:
The CSM's codex is competitive. If people dont find it competitive, that mean the SM codex isnt competite. CSM codex and SM codex are now good twin bad twin. All you need is having a lot of CSM and avoid mutilator, raptor and spawn.

For myself, if find it more boring than the 4 and 5 ed and I saw most of CSM player played Plague marines.

Um, spawn with a juggerlord might be the best pairing in a codex that I've played. Don't avoid them.

I'm thinking Juggerlord and Raptors might be one of the better combos as well. I'll try both and see if I fail or not.

Tycho wrote:
The codex has so many internal "traps" for the person using it that you have be very careful not to fall into them.

I agree with this. The unusual number of upgrades and options in Codex: Chaos Space Marines makes it unusually easy for people to make errors in list building. However, that same diversity also means experienced players will have more options to choose from in order to optimize their lists.

Tycho wrote:
Necron Flying Circus, Draigowing and BA deep striking Land Raiders are all clear cut examples of game changing units.

Necron flying circus, maybe-- I don't think Draigowing is particularly difficult for a balanced army to deal with, and deep striking Land Raiders seem outright bad. I've never seen them used in either competitive or casual play.

Tycho wrote:
Please name one single item from this codex that can even remotely be considered in the same sentence as those units. I'm not sure you have a full appreciation of the term "Game Changer".

Heldrake with Baleflamer. Chaos Spawn.

Tycho wrote:
As to the "solid fundamentals" point. Again, please name one.

13 point MEQs with power armor and bolters.

Tycho wrote:
I HAVE to accept challenges but my seargent equivalents have absolutely nothing that's going to make them decent at said challenges unless I spend an inordinant amount of points to upgrade a throw-away character?

Treating your Sergeants as "throw-away characters" is IMO not very adaptive for Chaos Space Marines.

Tycho wrote:
Finally, as others have already pointed out, our Troops section took a large hit as well. Cultists are too expensive any way you look at them. Your point about them being costed that way to prevent us from taking huge armies of cultists is silly and reaching at best. Multiple other armies can already take massive amounts of cheap troops in this manner. Why would Chaos not be able to?

Because it's Codex: Chaos Space Marines, not Codex: Lost and the Damned. The core of the army is meant to be Chaos Space Marines, not Cultists.

Tycho wrote:
The Marines are even worse imo. We do NOT as you say "have an MEQ statline". Our leadership was lowered by a point just so they could write a rule that would cost us two points per model to get it BACK to an MEQ statline.

That is not correct; Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines have literally the exact same statline. Further, Veterans of the Long War costs 1 point per model for a basic squad, not 2.

Tycho wrote:
We have no equivalent of the ATSKNF special rule and we lost a CCW that we now also have to pay extra for to get back. By the time you are done getting the marines of this codex back to what they use to be and even close to being equal to a real marine they are now MORE expensive and still not equal. And that's before real upgrades.

Chaos Space Marines aren't Space Marines. If you try to use them in the same way, you will fail-- however, there are many new options provided by this Codex. In my opinion, it's in those options that the Chaos Space Marines will thrive.

Helldrake is a game changer unit for a couple of reason.First of all,it is the only flyer that can not be ignored.Unlike Vendetas you can not ignore helldrake just because it will decimate your troop choices.Thanks to the new rules you can no longer hide in a transport and hold the objective ,so no troop choice is safe from the big guy.And as most people are marine players(low on models powered armor armies)the flying turkey really shines.Also,being armor 12,deamon,it will not die there are not real defences against him rather than other flyers(vendetas actually or mb tyranid flying tyrant).Furthermore, he can strike two different units thanks to vector strike and he is as spamable as the majority of flyers(cant see a reason why to take vendeta squadrons).Imo, helldrake is only inferior to necron nightscythe.

Ps.Normal csm are not so bad.I think a blob of 20 mark of khorne marines lead by kharne of a jugger lord cant be an excellent choice.

Chaos Space Marines aren't Space Marines. If you try to use them in the same way, you will fail-- however, there are many new options provided by this Codex. In my opinion, it's in those options that the Chaos Space Marines will thrive.

yeah but SW kind of a have the same ultra grit , 2 specials , icon , marks , MoTW and hidden power ax , termi squad leaders and can be used the same way csm are . the only difference is that GH have more options for transports. razors for msu and drop pods ,for those who want to use termi armored WGs etc. And the fact that GH have ATSKNF which is better then fearless.

Makumba wrote:

yeah but SW...

Comparing anything to space wolves won't help your argument. "The over powered codex has this, therefore to be balanced I want to be over powered too."

archonisthebesthqever wrote:
Helldrake is a game changer unit for a couple of reason.

Contemptor-Mortis pattern says you are not even getting on the board......two twin linked lascannons and a cyclone missile launcher with skyfire and interceptor closes this model down nicely, spam two if you want to own the skies.

Although you have to play in a FW friendly environment (and I am lucky enough to have a great set of friends who are pro-FW)

Otherwise you might just be right lol

 Griddlelol wrote:

Comparing anything to space wolves won't help your argument. "The over powered codex has this, therefore to be balanced I want to be over powered too."

Well, being weaker than the overpowered codex won't help the balance, that's for sure. But being overpowered on the same level as the other overpowered codex is a balance, isn't it ?

My god this thread is a mess of arguments and quotes.

In my opinion, the newest codex is a little plain, but presents you with a wide variety of options, some obviously better than others.
The codex is (again,in my opinion) what a codex should be in terms of strength, it gives you some decent units, with very little that is ridiculously OP, and cheesy.
That being said, this puts it at a great disadvantage to some certain books which allow players to take things for a far lower price than they should be, so if you're in competition with one of the more ridiculous codices, then you'll really need to pull a good list and some luck out of your hat to play competitively.

If you don't care as much about competition, and enjoy the interesting units of the book, and have a bit of fun with them, you'll have a lot more fun than stressing over building a competitive list with it IMO.

 FredTheEvilKitteh wrote:
My god this thread is a mess of arguments and quotes.

In my opinion, the newest codex is a little plain, but presents you with a wide variety of options, some obviously better than others.
The codex is (again,in my opinion) what a codex should be in terms of strength, it gives you some decent units, with very little that is ridiculously OP, and cheesy.
That being said, this puts it at a great disadvantage to some certain books which allow players to take things for a far lower price than they should be, so if you're in competition with one of the more ridiculous codices, then you'll really need to pull a good list and some luck out of your hat to play competitively.

If you don't care as much about competition, and enjoy the interesting units of the book, and have a bit of fun with them, you'll have a lot more fun than stressing over building a competitive list with it IMO.

+1.

I agree with this point I think most people on dakka forget that this is a game where "fun" overrides "To win" most times out of 10. I Dont understand why people are spitting their dummy's out because they didnt get a OP dex with a load of cheesy options, tbh I would hate that because all you would see is "List X" being played over and over again and that is boring, who cares if we didnt get the best codex? It plays along the lines of the theme of the game which is the background of 40K, sure I think there was obvious choices that Kelly missed out such as the Dreadclaw drop pod, but then again I think that is part of the GW 40K conspiracy... Which is to make the loyalist marines look good, but you know what? every unit that is in the codex IMO have been done brilliantly I love this codex its much better than the previous version.

tbh I would hate that because all you would see is "List X" being played over and over again and that is boring,

You mean like how the lists now are All nurgle and heldrakes? Any army is going to have that, but the strength of the army should be how viable all the units are, how creative one's lists can get that still are able to compete at some decent level, not some basic list that'll allow you to scrape by because its the only one. Fluffy armies should not = Not Able To Win At All.

I love this codex its much better than the previous version.

Seeing as the old codex was pit bleak, If it somehow became worse it'd involve a horrible shift in space and time to accomplish. It certainly is better than the previous codex.

However it didn't accomplish anything. It didn't fix the major flaws in the previous codex, it didn't expand in any major way. It didn't innovate itself, it didn't change anything meaningfully to the point where you can tell this was phoned in, and could've been done as a White Dwarf Codex.

Even Sisters of Battle had a more meaningful change in their update!

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

tbh I would hate that because all you would see is "List X" being played over and over again and that is boring,

You mean like how the lists now are All nurgle and heldrakes? Any army is going to have that, but the strength of the army should be how viable all the units are, how creative one's lists can get that still are able to compete at some decent level, not some basic list that'll allow you to scrape by because its the only one. Fluffy armies should not = Not Able To Win At All.

QFT! Over here CSM = Nurgle. Only I bring Chosenwing sometimes, everyone else uses Nurgle with Nurgle and Baledrakes 24/7.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

tbh I would hate that because all you would see is "List X" being played over and over again and that is boring,

You mean like how the lists now are All nurgle and heldrakes? Any army is going to have that, but the strength of the army should be how viable all the units are, how creative one's lists can get that still are able to compete at some decent level, not some basic list that'll allow you to scrape by because its the only one. Fluffy armies should not = Not Able To Win At All.

QFT! Over here CSM = Nurgle. Only I bring Chosenwing sometimes, everyone else uses Nurgle with Nurgle and Baledrakes 24/7.

Its because people see T5/6 and fliers and they just take those. nevermind that a Lord on a Slaanesh steed can outflank with 15 Raptors (or 5 Spawn), that T5 will help me live longer!

 McNinja wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

tbh I would hate that because all you would see is "List X" being played over and over again and that is boring,

You mean like how the lists now are All nurgle and heldrakes? Any army is going to have that, but the strength of the army should be how viable all the units are, how creative one's lists can get that still are able to compete at some decent level, not some basic list that'll allow you to scrape by because its the only one. Fluffy armies should not = Not Able To Win At All.

QFT! Over here CSM = Nurgle. Only I bring Chosenwing sometimes, everyone else uses Nurgle with Nurgle and Baledrakes 24/7.

Its because people see T5/6 and fliers and they just take those. nevermind that a Lord on a Slaanesh steed can outflank with 15 Raptors (or 5 Spawn), that T5 will help me live longer!

Plague Marines are a lot more than just T5 Marines--They are undoubtedly the best troop choice in the dex.

A Slaanesh Steed and 15 Raptors getting outflanked, is really not that scary.

 happygolucky wrote:

+1.

I agree with this point I think most people on dakka forget that this is a game where "fun" overrides "To win" most times out of 10. I Dont understand why people are spitting their dummy's out because they didnt get a OP dex with a load of cheesy options, tbh I would hate that because all you would see is "List X" being played over and over again and that is boring, who cares if we didnt get the best codex? It plays along the lines of the theme of the game which is the background of 40K, sure I think there was obvious choices that Kelly missed out such as the Dreadclaw drop pod, but then again I think that is part of the GW 40K conspiracy... Which is to make the loyalist marines look good, but you know what? every unit that is in the codex IMO have been done brilliantly I love this codex its much better than the previous version.

Glad to see someone else has a similar approach to myself. I was beginning to feel a little discouraged at all the banter.