Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Meh, I think we all just have our own lines we draw ... stuff where we think "I don't think that's cool, but I'll roll with it", and stuff where we think "ehh... I really don't feel like playing against this".

I'm fascinated by 40k not because of its rules or mechanics, but by the style and feeling of its setting. I'm the kind of gamer who isn't "just" content with moving units across the table, but who likes to picture the exchange of firefights and duels on the battlefield in their head, happening just like a movie. I'm the kind of gamer who comes up with appropriate names for their units and a background for the army. Who enjoys writing after-battle reports like a short story.

There's a certain element of immersion involved, and immersion - just like in roleplaying - requires a common ground with whoever you're playing against. So if the other army is really screwing with the fluff, it affects my own enjoyment of the game. I'm not saying I would decline any and all matches that do not meet my own perception of the fluff, but there has to be a minimum level of overlap, and my fun is partially affected by this, just as much as it would be affected by the quality of my opponent's army's paintjob.

I certainly realise that I must be in the minority with such an opinion, but surely I can't be the only one.

And honestly ... in some way, I think immersion plays a role for all of us, even if to a different degree. Would it be otherwise, the majority of gamers would be playing with cheap wooden blocks bearing a unit's name rather than spending so much cash on intricantly detailed and lovingly painted, sometimes even converted miniatures depicting fictional heroes from the far future of mankind. On some level, we all like to look at a mini and imagine what it'd be like, that epic fight.

As I said before, there is a mechanic in the Wolves codex to allow for free rein of color schemes and player created fluff. To insist on maintaining that your counts-as SW army is a super secret Wolf Brothers or other successor is just being TFG when said mechanic to create your own great company is there to use freely.

Feel free to regale me with your fluff about super secret Space Wolves geneseed found on a distant planet to create a successor. I am just going to look at you and say,

"Ok, so you are playing a lost great company."

 Crawdadr wrote:
But in the end how does another persons fluff effect your game play? I mean I would rather have some well painted minis's with an off beat concept on the table then a fluff perfect junk army on the table any day. Its just a minitures game after all, the rationalisation some one uses to paint their army a certain color or use a certain rule set should not matter in the slightest as long as they are not cheating. Shoot if fluff matter so much to people I doubt we would see so many twinked out armies on the tables. Grey knights and Crons comes to mind (yuck). Now thats a crime against the fluff on the game and not fun to play agianst which is the bigger crime.

Thats the point it does not effect the game or visual element of the hobby, it effects the fluff element of the hobby (not everyone enjoys the hobby in the same way).

I have no problem with someone having a purple and gold space wolves force or a jet black grey knights army. The problem comes when the creator tries to write fluff to justify it.

If fluff does not matter to a hobbyist, such as Space Wolves do not have genetic successors, then what is the point of that person creating fluff about their army being a space wolves successor? Why do they feel the need to create fiction set in a fictional world that they do not care for?

Take this for an example. Nature is a world renowned scientific journal, what would be your opinion of a person who tried to get an article published in said journal about the economic causes of the great deppression, and when people starts to question this persons actions the writer believes it is fine to 'poo poo' on people that complain.

 BluntmanDC wrote:

I have no problem with someone having a purple and gold space wolves force or a jet black grey knights army. The problem comes when the creator tries to write fluff to justify it.

If fluff does not matter to a hobbyist, such as Space Wolves do not have genetic successors, then what is the point of that person creating fluff about their army being a space wolves successor? Why do they feel the need to create fiction set in a fictional world that they do not care for?

Take this for an example. Nature is a world renowned scientific journal, what would be your opinion of a person who tried to get an article published in said journal about the economic causes of the great deppression, and when people starts to question this persons actions the writer believes it is fine to 'poo poo' on people that complain.

Oof. Bad analogy alert. Scientific journals are not in any way comparable to someone painting plastic figures and making up stories about them as a pastime. Science is a rigorous process of observation, hypothesis, experiment, criticism, try again, and so forth.
Making a background story for your army is, at best, a storytelling attempt (oh, the Humanities!).

To address your second point, isn't it possible that fluff does matter to them, but they both like the unque modelling opportunities and alternative army buildup options, but dislike their general colour scheme and run-of-the-mill army lists, and so seek to come up with a different origin to emphasize the bits of the Codex they like while downplaying the bits they don't?

Lynata wrote:For the record, I still dig the original idea of the Wolves (Viking Space Marines! How could this not be awesome?), I just think that over the years, it evolved into something else I just can't "approve of" anymore, as far as my own perception of the setting is concerned.

Also for the record, I'm not a blind follower who loves everything about the current SW Codex - I dislike quite a few of the things they've put in there - Wolf cavalry; wtf? that's just stupid. I just chose to cherry-pick the bits I like (Viking Space Marines, and the bad-boy imagery of "screw you guys - thiis the honourable thing to do, this is what we're gonna do, whatever you say" attittude). To me, that's the core of being a Space Wolf; anything else is just gravy (or junk to be thrown away).

Bran Dawri wrote:Bad analogy alert. Science is a rigorous process of observation, hypothesis, experiment, criticism, try again, and so forth.

Actually, I think you could say the same about the hardcore fluff-nuts.
Obviously it doesn't hold near the same role in society as a whole, but some few people treat it just as serious. To them, and thus a part of the fandom, the analogy isn't too far off.

Yeah, I still think that's a bit silly, At the end of the day, we're playing with toy soldiers. Take some perspective, willya? (Not you personally, those that take it too seriously.)

Define "too seriously". I love treating fluff like "a rigorous process of observation, hypothesis, experiment, criticism, try again and so forth" ...
... I just don't get bullheaded or butthurt when someone else doesn't feel that way. To me, it's nothing more than another part of the hobby. As I said before, just like a cool paintjob, or a good game.

If someone accuses you of not respecting the official fluff, you can answer that you don't respect stolen work.

I agree with Kronk. Use the SW codex and paint your army purple and call them People Eaters from planet Magenta. Any fluff will do.

Bran Dawri wrote:
Yeah, I still think that's a bit silly, At the end of the day, we're playing with toy soldiers. Take some perspective, willya? (Not you personally, those that take it too seriously.)

Firstly how is it a bad anology, setting is not important but the thought process involved in a situation is when creating an anology. The analogy was about trying to gain acceptance of an idea in a enviroment where it does not fit.

Secondly you talk of perspective but forget about consideration, do you look at people who enter grand tournments or golden deamons, spending 100s of hours practicing and preparing and 'go what an idiot, get some perspective they are only toy soldiers'. Why is it ok for members of this hobby to demean others for overly enjoying fluff but not those who overly enjoy other aspect of the hobby?

 BluntmanDC wrote:

Bran Dawri wrote:
Yeah, I still think that's a bit silly, At the end of the day, we're playing with toy soldiers. Take some perspective, willya? (Not you personally, those that take it too seriously.)

Firstly how is it a bad anology, setting is not important but the thought process involved in a situation is when creating an anology. The analogy was about trying to gain acceptance of an idea in a enviroment where it does not fit.

Secondly you talk of perspective but forget about consideration, do you look at people who enter grand tournments or golden deamons, spending 100s of hours practicing and preparing and 'go what an idiot, get some perspective they are only toy soldiers'. Why is it ok for members of this hobby to demean others for overly enjoying fluff but not those who overly enjoy other aspect of the hobby?

First how is the acceptance of others even necissary? But more importantly the only way another persons personal fluff even effects you is if you decide to alow it. The rationalisation for using a codex or paint job has no effect on anyone. That is why I say that no one oppinion matters where it involves why you painted something the way you did. Why cant I have Tau that have been corupted by Khorn or Orks that have been bred to be civilised by the eldar? How does that impact anyone but my self?

P.S. both those ideas stink so please people do not make those armies for your own sanity.

 Crawdadr wrote:

 BluntmanDC wrote:

Bran Dawri wrote:
Yeah, I still think that's a bit silly, At the end of the day, we're playing with toy soldiers. Take some perspective, willya? (Not you personally, those that take it too seriously.)

Firstly how is it a bad anology, setting is not important but the thought process involved in a situation is when creating an anology. The analogy was about trying to gain acceptance of an idea in a enviroment where it does not fit.

Secondly you talk of perspective but forget about consideration, do you look at people who enter grand tournments or golden deamons, spending 100s of hours practicing and preparing and 'go what an idiot, get some perspective they are only toy soldiers'. Why is it ok for members of this hobby to demean others for overly enjoying fluff but not those who overly enjoy other aspect of the hobby?

First how is the acceptance of others even necissary? But more importantly the only way another persons personal fluff even effects you is if you decide to alow it. The rationalisation for using a codex or paint job has no effect on anyone. That is why I say that no one oppinion matters where it involves why you painted something the way you did. Why cant I have Tau that have been corupted by Khorn or Orks that have been bred to be civilised by the eldar? How does that impact anyone but my self?

P.S. both those ideas stink so please people do not make those armies for your own sanity.

For me someone expecting others to listen to the god aweful fluff whilst playing is similar to someone telling me they don't play with minitures but with peices of card and cocktail sticks.

 BluntmanDC wrote:

 Crawdadr wrote:

 BluntmanDC wrote:

Bran Dawri wrote:
Yeah, I still think that's a bit silly, At the end of the day, we're playing with toy soldiers. Take some perspective, willya? (Not you personally, those that take it too seriously.)

Firstly how is it a bad anology, setting is not important but the thought process involved in a situation is when creating an anology. The analogy was about trying to gain acceptance of an idea in a enviroment where it does not fit.

Secondly you talk of perspective but forget about consideration, do you look at people who enter grand tournments or golden deamons, spending 100s of hours practicing and preparing and 'go what an idiot, get some perspective they are only toy soldiers'. Why is it ok for members of this hobby to demean others for overly enjoying fluff but not those who overly enjoy other aspect of the hobby?

First how is the acceptance of others even necissary? But more importantly the only way another persons personal fluff even effects you is if you decide to alow it. The rationalisation for using a codex or paint job has no effect on anyone. That is why I say that no one oppinion matters where it involves why you painted something the way you did. Why cant I have Tau that have been corupted by Khorn or Orks that have been bred to be civilised by the eldar? How does that impact anyone but my self?

P.S. both those ideas stink so please people do not make those armies for your own sanity.

For me someone expecting others to listen to the god aweful fluff whilst playing is similar to someone telling me they don't play with minitures but with peices of card and cocktail sticks.

Now that I understand, its just like people that keep telling stories about games they played 3 years ago to prove how uber they are.

Thanks alot guys, hah alot of stuff here but i think i understand and i know what im going to do. Thanks to all

Fifty DCM: Here is what you do - you create a secret chapter called, say, the Shadow Wolves, or somesuch, that exist, but the fluff says they are a secret strikeforce of X, Y or Z faction of the Imperial hierarchy, or something similar and are not known to the general populace. Alternatively, you reveal that a chapter of Space Wolves successors, created from Wolf Brothers who did not succumb, has been living on the fringes of Imperial space for millennia, and have just returned, like the Carcharodons did in the Badab War. This chapter probably do suffer badly from the wolfen curse, but have overcome it enough to function, even if the manner of their functioning does not meet with Imperial approval, they still see themselves as Imperial.

What colour did you want as your primary colour? I am sure I can come up with some fluff which, whilst not legitimate and may upset some real hard-core gamers, would satisfy most people...

(Bearing in mind, by the way, that the blog post on the main GW website has featured alternative schemes of Space Wolves, I think some of you need to take your heads out of your arses.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/01 16:06:50



Thank You and i was going to paint them blood Angel colors as crazy as it sounds ive done a few models and they actually look really baddass. I havent done to much reading into it as im still new to the game but from what i understand no one really knows what happend to leman Russ.. So when he "disappeared" whose to say what he did.. He could dwell on another planet exactly like fenris or passed through I mean arent the possibilites endless technically??? Or am i just a noob hah.

 Crawdadr wrote:
Blah who cares make up your own fluff and poo poo on anyone that says anything. If you want Orks that where raised by Eldar go for it. You want Tau that fell too Khorn "what ever". Just paint your minis and have a blast because in the end of the day they are just plastic army men being pushed around by over grown children (that includes me). But most importantly YOU will have to look at those mini's every time you play, so you better enjoy everything about them fluff, paint, and playability.

I would draw the line at Tau who fell to Khorne... Tau have no psykers and are immune to the warp. They didn't believe the other races when the described the forces as chaos spewing out of the Eye of Terror, because they had no concept of Chaos, or demons, or the warp.

Yes, you are entitled to enjoy your hobby the way you want, but you are not entitled to "poo poo" on all the other hobbyists who are "following the rules" for lack of a better phrase.