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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Your government system is weird. How on earth can you put fisheries aid for something on the other side of your continent sized country into an aid plan for the Eastern seaboard?


"Murica, man.

Sadly, there really isn't a better answer than that.

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Home Base: Prosper, TX (Dallas)

@Frazz

I didn't hit the south. So people care more

The only reason Katrina got exposure was because of the response issues. Ike did significantly more damage to a much wider area and wasn't even a blip on the radar nationally....But hey, Texans leave when they're suppose to and then come back and fix what got broke as fast as possible. Strange how that works out...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/02 21:17:21


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Remember, Obama’s first offer was for a $1.6 trillion tax hike and an infinite debt limit hike.

Boehner countered with $800 billion.

The final deal was for only $600 billion.

Is that not by definition a compromise?

Heh... saw this on my twitter feed:
Was the progressive taken to the cleaners? “The Democrats have made the Bush tax rates permanent for 98 percent of the public, which Republicans couldn’t even do when they controlled both houses of Congress and the presidency.”

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/02 21:19:42


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Easy E wrote:

The Pork gets tacked on if the House want an excuse to kill it.

I suppose in whatever fantasyland you live in that statement makes sense.

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This kind of proves Romney's point about FEMA and waiting on the Federal government.
   
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Relapse wrote:
This kind of proves Romney's point about FEMA and waiting on the Federal government.

That ship already sailed.

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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

Relapse wrote:
This kind of proves Romney's point about FEMA and waiting on the Federal government.


What, that the private sector should be handling disaster relief?

KING: Governor Romney? You’ve been a chief executive of a state. I was just in Joplin, Missouri. I’ve been in Mississippi and Louisiana and Tennessee and other communities dealing with whether it’s the tornadoes, the flooding, and worse. FEMA is about to run out of money, and there are some people who say do it on a case-by-case basis and some people who say, you know, maybe we’re learning a lesson here that the states should take on more of this role. How do you deal with something like that?
ROMNEY: Absolutely. Every time you have an occasion to take something from the federal government and send it back to the states, that’s the right direction. And if you can go even further and send it back to the private sector, that’s even better.


 lord_blackfang wrote:
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 Ouze wrote:
Relapse wrote:
This kind of proves Romney's point about FEMA and waiting on the Federal government.


What, that the private sector should be handling disaster relief?

KING: Governor Romney? You’ve been a chief executive of a state. I was just in Joplin, Missouri. I’ve been in Mississippi and Louisiana and Tennessee and other communities dealing with whether it’s the tornadoes, the flooding, and worse. FEMA is about to run out of money, and there are some people who say do it on a case-by-case basis and some people who say, you know, maybe we’re learning a lesson here that the states should take on more of this role. How do you deal with something like that?
ROMNEY: Absolutely. Every time you have an occasion to take something from the federal government and send it back to the states, that’s the right direction. And if you can go even further and send it back to the private sector, that’s even better.



Not saying the private sector, just saying that those who put their faith in FEMA and the feds jumping in quickly have a record of being disappointed.
   
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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

Relapse wrote:
Not saying the private sector, just saying that those who put their faith in FEMA and the feds jumping in quickly have a record of being disappointed.


He DID say the private sector. Here, I'll post it again:

KING: Governor Romney? You’ve been a chief executive of a state. I was just in Joplin, Missouri. I’ve been in Mississippi and Louisiana and Tennessee and other communities dealing with whether it’s the tornadoes, the flooding, and worse. FEMA is about to run out of money, and there are some people who say do it on a case-by-case basis and some people who say, you know, maybe we’re learning a lesson here that the states should take on more of this role. How do you deal with something like that?
ROMNEY: Absolutely. Every time you have an occasion to take something from the federal government and send it back to the states, that’s the right direction. And if you can go even further and send it back to the private sector, that’s even better.


So, I guess the real question is why isn't the GOP taking Mr. Romney's sage advice, shooting down any spending bills for disaster aid post-Sandy, and directing people to local handymen and so forth to rebuild their homes? Why should people in Ohio's tax dollars be used to build New Jersey's shattered boardwalks and... whatever?

 lord_blackfang wrote:
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Lakewood, Ohio

 Ouze wrote:
Relapse wrote:
Not saying the private sector, just saying that those who put their faith in FEMA and the feds jumping in quickly have a record of being disappointed.


He DID say the private sector. Here, I'll post it again:

KING: Governor Romney? You’ve been a chief executive of a state. I was just in Joplin, Missouri. I’ve been in Mississippi and Louisiana and Tennessee and other communities dealing with whether it’s the tornadoes, the flooding, and worse. FEMA is about to run out of money, and there are some people who say do it on a case-by-case basis and some people who say, you know, maybe we’re learning a lesson here that the states should take on more of this role. How do you deal with something like that?
ROMNEY: Absolutely. Every time you have an occasion to take something from the federal government and send it back to the states, that’s the right direction. And if you can go even further and send it back to the private sector, that’s even better.


So, I guess the real question is why isn't the GOP taking Mr. Romney's sage advice, shooting down any spending bills for disaster aid post-Sandy, and directing people to local handymen and so forth to rebuild their homes? Why should people in Ohio's tax dollars be used to build New Jersey's shattered boardwalks and... whatever?


Because Boehner says they're all chuckleheads, and probably high on Parma Pierogies

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 Ouze wrote:
Relapse wrote:
Not saying the private sector, just saying that those who put their faith in FEMA and the feds jumping in quickly have a record of being disappointed.


He DID say the private sector. Here, I'll post it again:

KING: Governor Romney? You’ve been a chief executive of a state. I was just in Joplin, Missouri. I’ve been in Mississippi and Louisiana and Tennessee and other communities dealing with whether it’s the tornadoes, the flooding, and worse. FEMA is about to run out of money, and there are some people who say do it on a case-by-case basis and some people who say, you know, maybe we’re learning a lesson here that the states should take on more of this role. How do you deal with something like that?
ROMNEY: Absolutely. Every time you have an occasion to take something from the federal government and send it back to the states, that’s the right direction. And if you can go even further and send it back to the private sector, that’s even better.


So, I guess the real question is why isn't the GOP taking Mr. Romney's sage advice, shooting down any spending bills for disaster aid post-Sandy, and directing people to local handymen and so forth to rebuild their homes? Why should people in Ohio's tax dollars be used to build New Jersey's shattered boardwalks and... whatever?


I'm saying I wasn't talking about the private sector and if you think that it's a sterling example being shown by the government and FEMA post Sandy then you're being a bit optimistic.
   
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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

Well, since it's no longer October 2012, coupled with the fact it's nearly impossible to find an opinion of Mr. Romney's that he wasn't firmly on both sides of depending who asked, I'd have to say that there's probably no point in further discussion over what Mr. Romney thought we should do about natural disasters, fiscal policy, proper care of turtles, or anything else, for that matter.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
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 Flinty wrote:
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 Ouze wrote:
Well, since it's no longer October 2012, coupled with the fact it's nearly impossible to find an opinion of Mr. Romney's that he wasn't firmly on both sides of depending who asked, I'd have to say that there's probably no point in further discussion over what Mr. Romney thought we should do about natural disasters, fiscal policy, proper care of turtles, or anything else, for that matter.


Let us leave it at that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/03 01:27:47


 
   
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 Hulksmash wrote:
The only reason Katrina got exposure was because of the response issues. Ike did significantly more damage to a much wider area and wasn't even a blip on the radar nationally....

Are you joking? Katrina wasn't "even a blip on the radar nationally"? What nation are you referring to?

 Hulksmash wrote:
But hey, Texans leave when they're suppose to and then come back and fix what got broke as fast as possible. Strange how that works out...

If you're trying to say that Texans (and people in other gulf states) are more experienced dealing with hurricanes and more accustomed to cleaning up after them, I'll certainly agree. When was the last time the NYC subway system was flooded by a hurricane? States in the NE really aren't accustomed to dealing with storms like this. It makes a rather dramatic contrast to, say, Florida.

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 Mannahnin wrote:
Are you joking? Katrina wasn't "even a blip on the radar nationally"? What nation are you referring to?

No, he pretty clearly said Ike wasn't even a blip on the radar nationally, despite doing more damage. Ike. I-K-E.
   
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USA

Damage in what sense? For the US, Katrina caused over 108 million in damage. Ike caused 30 million. Are we adding in other countries?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/03 08:21:38


   
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The Great State of Texas

 LordofHats wrote:
Damage in what sense? For the US, Katrina caused over 108 million in damage. Ike caused 30 million. Are we adding in other countries?


Ike caused more than $30B, not million. You're off by orders of magnitude. That still wasn't a bad storm, just a wide one.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/03 14:48:27


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@Lordofhats

Frazzled has it. Katrina should have been a blip, and likely would have been if people had evacuated like they'd been told to.

@Mannahnin

I thought I was pretty clear but Seaward fixed it. As for my point after the large rain storm (wouldn't even call it a tropical storm) that hit NYC in 2011 I expected them to begin to take actions to be prepared for a stronger storm. They didn't. A year later a tropical storm (not a hurricane) comes through slightly stronger than the previous year and does what Sandy did. I feel bad for the citizens of the city and donated to a relief organization I trust but they should be mad at their local government. Maybe now that they realize 2011 wasn't a freak occurance they can get started.

As for the Texas comment it was more related to Katrina vs. Ike and the mentalities involved in the cities/states affected. Not the northeast. I don't expect them to be awesome at storm recovery but I do expect they'll take preperation more seriously now...

@Frazzled

Yeah, Ike was enourmous. Thank god it slowed down once it hit land. They were originally talking about the actual storm hitting Dallas given how fast it was coming in. Imagine the same level of damage in Houston happening to Austin and Dallas too...yikes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/03 15:04:01


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Fort Campbell

 Hulksmash wrote:

@Mannahnin

I thought I was pretty clear but Seaward fixed it. As for my point after the large rain storm (wouldn't even call it a tropical storm) that hit NYC in 2011 I expected them to begin to take actions to be prepared for a stronger storm. They didn't. A year later a tropical storm (not a hurricane) comes through slightly stronger than the previous year and does what Sandy did. I feel bad for the citizens of the city and donated to a relief organization I trust but they should be mad at their local government. Maybe now that they realize 2011 wasn't a freak occurance they can get started.

As for the Texas comment it was more related to Katrina vs. Ike and the mentalities involved in the cities/states affected. Not the northeast. I don't expect them to be awesome at storm recovery but I do expect they'll take preperation more seriously now...


Goes back to what I said earlier in this thread. The electorate doesn't give a damn about what their officials do as long as they get their hand outs. Then when gak hits the fan, they get stuck because they keep reelecting the worse people possible to do these jobs.

And if you think I'm wrong I've got one thing to say. Nagin got reelected after Katrina.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/03 15:29:26


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 AustonT wrote:
Easy E wrote:

The Pork gets tacked on if the House want an excuse to kill it.

I suppose in whatever fantasyland you live in that statement makes sense.


Plus, Legislators want money for their state. That's why they are sent to Congress. Right?

So, Chris Christie claims that 600 million of the 30 Billion was Pork, and a pointless amount to get worked up about. He's really going off the reservation on this one.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/03 15:28:52


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United States

 Seaward wrote:

So, what, something can only be a significant problem if it's novel?


No, nor is that what I said, but its a bit strange that a fixture of democratic politics (because you can't have a democracy on the scale of the United States without pork spending) attracts so much ire from the population. In other words, while you might consider pork spending a problem, it gets cited far too frequently as a "problem" of great significance; especially given the absence of any reliable measure of its role in the federal budget over time.

djones520 wrote:

Goes back to what I said earlier in this thread. The electorate doesn't give a damn about what their officials do as long as they get their hand outs.


Of course they don't, why should they? The electorate elects politicians to represent their interests, that's the basis of representative democracy. Its why Congress, as a whole, is always hugely unpopular compared to individual members of Congress.

Its also important to note that what conservatives general consider to be "buying votes" isn't the limit of that behavior, things like selective tax cuts also fit nicely into the mold, as do certain choices regarding military spending. And, of course, its important to remember that "buying votes" isn't inherently bad, as essentially all political action is based on concept of reelection.

 Hulksmash wrote:

They didn't. A year later a tropical storm (not a hurricane) comes through slightly stronger than the previous year and does what Sandy did. I feel bad for the citizens of the city and donated to a relief organization I trust but they should be mad at their local government. Maybe now that they realize 2011 wasn't a freak occurance they can get started.


Would you also expect Austin to purchase a few hundred snow plows if they were, freakishly, hit with 5" of snow fall?

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/01/03 16:25:03


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 dogma wrote:

Would you also expect Austin to purchase a few hundred snow plows if they were, freakishly, hit with 5" of snow fall?


No I also would not expect them to go crying to the federal government for billions like you Yankee wussies did.

OT but we would love as five inch snow. We need about 15 inchess of water. I'll take several freakish blizzards thank you very much.

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 Frazzled wrote:
 dogma wrote:

Would you also expect Austin to purchase a few hundred snow plows if they were, freakishly, hit with 5" of snow fall?


No I also would not expect them to go crying to the federal government for billions like you Yankee wussies did.

OT but we would love as five inch snow. We need about 15 inchess of water. I'll take several freakish blizzards thank you very much.


Hey, not all of us "yanks" (in the northerners sense) are wussies... Ohio regularly gets hit with freakish amounts of snow, and has to deal with weird heat waves...

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United States

 Frazzled wrote:

No I also would not expect them to go crying to the federal government for billions like you Yankee wussies did.


If anything, the Northeast was merely following the example set by Southerners in the wake of their own hurricane experiences.

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@Killcrazy

Read the report they are citing for how they determined the "damages". It's inaccurate to say the least.

@Dogma

I would if 2" of snow proved to much for my city to handle begin plans to deal with future instances. And if 5" fell the next year you bet you behind I'd be pushing for my city to invest in a sensible plan to ensure safety and daily life.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/03 18:51:51


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United States

 Hulksmash wrote:

I would if 2" of snow proved to much for my city to handle begin plans to deal with future instances. And if 5" fell the next year you bet you behind I'd be pushing for my city to invest in a sensible plan to ensure safety and daily life.


Would you feel the same way if it were demonstrated that the cost of such extended preparation outstripped the cost in property damage and lost labor as a result of a few occasional incidents? Or if the cost in lost life was also included in the calculation, and the result of the assessment was the same?

To carry the snow example, there is no sound reason to presume Austin, Texas requires as many snow plows as Chicago, Illinois, and a single isolated snow storm, no matter how extreme, doesn't change that fact. As with all policy decisions, disaster preparedness is a matter of probability that is itself couched within the larger municipal budget. Speaking specifically with respect to New York, I would argue that police protection is far more important than being prepared for a hurricane. And, while the two aren't mutually exclusive, any increase in the funds allocated to dealing with a hurricane necessarily means that cuts must be made elsewhere, at least absent any increase in revenue.

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Home Base: Prosper, TX (Dallas)

 dogma wrote:
 Hulksmash wrote:

I would if 2" of snow proved to much for my city to handle begin plans to deal with future instances. And if 5" fell the next year you bet you behind I'd be pushing for my city to invest in a sensible plan to ensure safety and daily life.


Would you feel the same way if it were demonstrated that the cost of such extended preparation outstripped the cost in property damage and lost labor as a result of a few occasional incidents? Or if the cost in lost life was also included in the calculation, and the result of the assessment was the same?

To carry the snow example, there is no sound reason to presume Austin, Texas requires as many snow plows as Chicago, Illinois, and a single isolated snow storm, no matter how extreme, doesn't change that fact. As with all policy decisions, disaster preparedness is a matter of probability that is itself couched within the larger municipal budget. Speaking specifically with respect to New York, I would argue that police protection is far more important than being prepared for a hurricane. And, while the two aren't mutually exclusive, any increase in the funds allocated to dealing with a hurricane necessarily means that cuts must be made elsewhere, at least absent any increase in revenue.


**Sigh** First, Snow and Tropical storms are two entirely different beasts. One requires better building materials, proper water flow designs, and different methods for running utilities. The damage, direct and indirect, is generally related directly to these items.

Snow, for those not living in states that get dumped on yearly, doesn't work this way. Snow is simply lost productivity from the workforce and idiot drivers. It rarely, if ever, results property damage. And a single snow storm in an area that never gets snow is likely to melt within days (i.e. 1-2) and without follow-on snow fall is immaterial. The real reason for plows and salt is to prevent build-up, not actually clean up after a single storm.

And my point is it's obviously not that freakish. If they weren't preparing after 2011 I understand, but if they aren't starting to prepare now then it's on the electorates head.

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