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But the Legions disobeyed Nikaea under different circumstances. Most did it out of necessity, the Thousand Sons did it out of arrogance IMHO.

The Thousand Sons continued to practice in the immediate, whilst the other Legions disbanded their librarius departments and only used psykers when they really had to. Furthermore, as you hinted at, none of the other Legions worked with Daemons.

Well I go personally for that Leman Russ was a hypocrite. He had Rune Priests, but since their connection to the warp is different and more pure than the normal psyker's then for him it was okay. So he gave Magnus the middle-finger despite the latter's wish to be loyal, and when the heresy came around rolling, then it was a small task for Horus to convince Russ that he was to exterminate and not simply subdue the Thousand Sons.

Although I recall that detail from Index Astartes, I can't remember it being in Prospero Burns.

Russ's attitude about "sorcery" seems hypocritical but as Just Dave pointed out, there is a difference between using psychic powers and consorting with daemons.

I don't understand why, "warning dad about the impending betrayal of his favourite son." Is any less necessary or any more arrogant than any other excuses people had.

 Compel wrote:
I don't understand why, "warning dad about the impending betrayal of his favourite son." Is any less necessary or any more arrogant than any other excuses people had.

It wasn't Magnus' only motive.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Well I go personally for that Leman Russ was a hypocrite. He had Rune Priests, but since their connection to the warp is different and more pure than the normal psyker's then for him it was okay. So he gave Magnus the middle-finger despite the latter's wish to be loyal, and when the heresy came around rolling, then it was a small task for Horus to convince Russ that he was to exterminate and not simply subdue the Thousand Sons.

He had a "rune priests" yes, but they weren't under librarius project IIRC- also their role was not just to shoot lightnin' bolts, they made talismans,runes,wards and recruited new members...
Only hypocritical thing is from SW that they were distancing themselfs from warp usage (you know power of Fenris and all),since we know this is not true....

Heyh who is to say a hypocrite can't be right? I wrote that the Fenrisian shamanism is a purer form of being touched by the warp. And that's what the Space Wolves adhered to. I basically see the whole chapter as a gathering of king Uthers (King Giles of Merlin and Buffy-fame). So they tolerate sossery committed by their own Rune Priests, but they see sossery by anyone else as they being marked by the Ruinous Powers. And they are right, yet also wrong as many loyal people of the IOM has been touched in such a way yet Chaos has no influence over them.

Manchu wrote:The Thousand Sons always have an excuse -- the Flesh Change. Magnus justified betraying his father in the exact same way Ahriman would later justify his betrayal of the Legion. Their intentions are always so good, how tragic ... except not really. It's always a matter of arrogance, to demonstrate greater power, to delve even deeper into the secrets of the Empyrean.

This is why Russ felt such utter contempt for them.

Now, did the Emperor engineer their flaw? That is the question.

Well, for what its worth, Ahriman felt a deep regret for what he did to his brothers with the Rubric, to the point of eschewing using his powers and wandering the Eye for "several human lifetimes" as a lowly outcast and renegade. Of course, much like his father, he was ambivalent about actually letting death claim him, and eventually decided that "better dust than damnation" after his confrontation with Amon (who was basically trying to finish what their father started and annihilate the Legion completely to put them out of their misery). At one point while ruminating on Magnus' saying of "Knowledge is the only good, and the only evil is ignorance", Ahriman says something along the lines of "Knowledge wraps you up in chains of arrogance, and drags you into darkness", which I felt echoed some of the Emperor's warnings at Nikea.

We were joking some time ago about the Warp being a narcotic and the Thousand Sons a bunch of junkies, and Ahriman: Exile suggests that that is actually exactly the case. The rush Ahriman is described as feeling when he finally opens up to the Empyrean again, plus the changes in perspective undergone by his apprentice, seem very similar to a drug user relapsing, or a user chasing ever bigger highs. So it goes far beyond mere arrogance, it's more a matter of necessity to know more, to acquire more power, without end, which is also something the Emperor warned against.

Russ felt contempt for pretty much everyone, it seems, considering how he took it upon himself to judge everyone.

As for the Emperor engineering their flaw, he should know more than anyone about the addictive nature of the Warp. I don't buy his equivocation at Nikea about "oh, I just meant to give you a little taste, I didn't expect you to snort the whole damn bag". The Thousand Sons were also raised as a Legion during a time of massive warpstorms and rampant mutation and psychic phenomena among the human populace, and the Emperor is the one who named them "Thousand Sons", so it seems he had an inkling about the difficulties they would experience. They were pretty much screwed from the very start.

I guess that's why I empathize with them, I would have made the same mistakes. feth the Emperor and his warnings, I want to know stuff. That's why I found Harry Potter so frustrating too; these stupid kids had an opportunity to learn actual magic, yet most of them wasted their time cheating on homework, or skipping classes to make out or whatever. I'd be such a nerd, I'd be aiming to be the next Dark Lord by the end of the first semester.

Yeah, it seems we share the same sort of sympathy with Magnus. The fact that Magnus did not have to fall, the fact that he chose it, the fact that he was responsible ... none of this hinders my sympathy for him. He's one of my favorite characters, maybe my most favorite, from this setting. If he was "addicted" I think it's in a purely metaphorical sense; I think the Emperor made him to have great capacity for both knowledge and judgment but Magnus was himself free to chose which of his characteristics to nurture and cultivate. He chose to slake his thirst for knowledge without developing correspondingly deep wisdom.

Russ felt a certain kind of contempt for everyone else, sure I'll agree with that. But that attitude did not preclude caring for others, too. The SW are still like this in M42: they'll call you out as a pansy-ass grease stain nothing and yet bleed and die fighting to protect you.

 Omegus wrote:

Manchu wrote:The Thousand Sons always have an excuse -- the Flesh Change. Magnus justified betraying his father in the exact same way Ahriman would later justify his betrayal of the Legion. Their intentions are always so good, how tragic ... except not really. It's always a matter of arrogance, to demonstrate greater power, to delve even deeper into the secrets of the Empyrean.

This is why Russ felt such utter contempt for them.

Now, did the Emperor engineer their flaw? That is the question.

Well, for what its worth, Ahriman felt a deep regret for what he did to his brothers with the Rubric, to the point of eschewing using his powers and wandering the Eye for "several human lifetimes" as a lowly outcast and renegade. Of course, much like his father, he was ambivalent about actually letting death claim him, and eventually decided that "better dust than damnation" after his confrontation with Amon (who was basically trying to finish what their father started and annihilate the Legion completely to put them out of their misery). At one point while ruminating on Magnus' saying of "Knowledge is the only good, and the only evil is ignorance", Ahriman says something along the lines of "Knowledge wraps you up in chains of arrogance, and drags you into darkness", which I felt echoed some of the Emperor's warnings at Nikea.

We were joking some time ago about the Warp being a narcotic and the Thousand Sons a bunch of junkies, and Ahriman: Exile suggests that that is actually exactly the case. The rush Ahriman is described as feeling when he finally opens up to the Empyrean again, plus the changes in perspective undergone by his apprentice, seem very similar to a drug user relapsing, or a user chasing ever bigger highs. So it goes far beyond mere arrogance, it's more a matter of necessity to know more, to acquire more power, without end, which is also something the Emperor warned against.

Russ felt contempt for pretty much everyone, it seems, considering how he took it upon himself to judge everyone.

As for the Emperor engineering their flaw, he should know more than anyone about the addictive nature of the Warp. I don't buy his equivocation at Nikea about "oh, I just meant to give you a little taste, I didn't expect you to snort the whole damn bag". The Thousand Sons were also raised as a Legion during a time of massive warpstorms and rampant mutation and psychic phenomena among the human populace, and the Emperor is the one who named them "Thousand Sons", so it seems he had an inkling about the difficulties they would experience. They were pretty much screwed from the very start.

I guess that's why I empathize with them, I would have made the same mistakes. feth the Emperor and his warnings, I want to know stuff. That's why I found Harry Potter so frustrating too; these stupid kids had an opportunity to learn actual magic, yet most of them wasted their time cheating on homework, or skipping classes to make out or whatever. I'd be such a nerd, I'd be aiming to be the next Dark Lord by the end of the first semester.

Agreement on everything but the Russ thing. Prospero Burns showed a much more um....sympathetic? Russ. He knew his role in the grand scheme and things and accepted it, but did not necessarily enjoy it. As Manchu said, he did seem to hold himself above pretty much everyone else, but he'd still go to bat for you.

Oh, okay, so he had the "white man's burden" attitude. That makes him so much more likable.

 Omegus wrote:
Oh, okay, so he had the "white man's burden" attitude. That makes him so much more likable.

I actually spit coke on my lap when I read this gak, that was fething hilarious.

Manchu, I'll answer your post when I'm not busy atrophying on videogames. Or maybe I won't. Who knows?

 Omegus wrote:
Battle for the Fang wasn't very good, but most of the "Battles of the Space Marines" novels are just bolter porn trying to make their protagonists look badass.

You can also get more insight into the Thousand Sons after the events of Prospero in Ahriman: Exile (and if you want to see how far he's come from that, read Atlas Infernal...dude is a total demi-god by then).

The Prospero book was probably the number 1 reason I started a Thousand Sons pre-heresy army.

Atlas Infernal was an absolutely fun read.

Ahriman: Exile - reading it now, I'm just through the first section and all I can say is Wow. Great bit of writing and when you combine the 3 stories you get a character with a tremendous amount of depth.

clively wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
Battle for the Fang wasn't very good, but most of the "Battles of the Space Marines" novels are just bolter porn trying to make their protagonists look badass.

You can also get more insight into the Thousand Sons after the events of Prospero in Ahriman: Exile (and if you want to see how far he's come from that, read Atlas Infernal...dude is a total demi-god by then).

The Prospero book was probably the number 1 reason I started a Thousand Sons pre-heresy army.

Atlas Infernal was an absolutely fun read.

Ahriman: Exile - reading it now, I'm just through the first section and all I can say is Wow. Great bit of writing and when you combine the 3 stories you get a character with a tremendous amount of depth.

Yeah, I'm reading Ahriman : Exile now, and after I was disapointed with John's short audio "Warmaster" , this book is great...

 Omegus wrote:
Oh, okay, so he had the "white man's burden" attitude.

That's certainly not what I meant and I think it doesn't seem to apply to Russ in the slightest.