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Its very unlikely that the Great Crusade would ever really be over, IIRC Loken while talking to a Captain of the Imperial Fists he basically makes fun of Loken for thinking that the Great Crusade will end, he believes that they will fight eternally in such a vast universe with untold amount of enemies.
Also Roboute Gulliman's quote from Know No Fear comes to mind.
"Space Marines excel at warfare because they were designed to excel at everything. Each of you will become a leader, a ruler, the master of your world and, because there is no more fighting to be done, you will bend your transhuman talents to governance and culture."
As shown by the Ultramarines the SM could easily take over as just simple guardians of humanity, ever vigilant and watching over the people of the Imperium, helping where they can. Would really depend on the Legion though, how much involvement would actually happen between the SM and their ruling worlds.
Lynata wrote: One of the reasons for why I think he made them sterile - though that detail is not covered in any way anywhere but merely personal opinion and preference, thus not warranting any discussion.
But it sure as hell works as a reason to not make both male and female versions of them with hereditary enhancements instead of the geneseed-implant cycle. Breeding their own would have created a race of superhumans that at some point would come up with the idea that the rest of humanity is useless. Now even the most arrogant marines will still have to keep their pride in check and protect the populations that they recruit from unless they want to go extinct.
Remember though, the geneseed implantation is only part of the process of creating Space Marines. The Space Marines have most of their organs implanted. They don't grow naturally. Having sex with normal women, or even the theoretical female Space Marine wouldn't breed more Space Marines because much of what has happened to them is artificial and wouldn't be passed on genetically through traditional means. Chances are, if Space Marines are sterile, it is because their offspring would be biologically unstable, not because the Imperium is worried about them reproducing in an uncontrolled manner.
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
It exposes the darker side of the Emperor yes. After the Great Crusade was complete the Astartes were meant to gradually die out like the Thunder Warriors, with the Imperial Army and Arbites maintaining his empire.
BL fiction has often moved to showing a less-flattering depiction of the Emperor that you get from GW studios. A quote from "The Last Church" sums up this depiction well:
"Uriah looked into the Emperor’s face as he spoke, now seeing past the glamours and the magnificence to the heart of an individual who had lived a thousand lives and walked the Earth for longer than could be imagined. He saw the ruthless ambition and the molten core of violence at the Emperor’s heart. In that instant, Uriah knew he wanted nothing to do with this man"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/11 17:46:44
There's also the potential for a kind of 'draw down.'
For example, instead of saying, "1 in 1000 people who complete the initial trials may become a novitiate, 1 in 10000..." That way you end up with a stepped decrease resulting in having a more 'suitable' amount of marines for the next stage of the galaxy, even if it is just putting down the occasional ork infestations or the like.
Even the World Eaters at a suitable size could have had a place in that kind of Imperium. Potentially even Cruze could have been cured.
Admiral Valerian wrote: That doesn't make sense though. Custodians were never meant for mass-production. That's the whole point behind them.
I take them to be in the early stages, just like the first Space Marines. You don't jump straight into mass-production when it comes to such things.
Except that the space marines were mass-produced in their early stage. Who else did you think drove off those pesky Xenos from the solar system.
Which pesky Xenos?
Horus Heresy Collected Visions – page 12
“The solar System was the first region of space to be conquered by the Emperor and his Space Marine Legions. Alien invaders were flushed from the moons of Saturn and Jupiter and their wretched enslaved human inhabitants repatriated to Earth.”
amanita wrote: So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?
Moktor wrote: No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
Its possible that he may have wanted to keep them on forever. Even if every planet had been united space marines abilities to rapidly respond to threats would have made them invaluable to maintain the Empire. Why muster millions of men to deal with a threat that could be dealt with by a SM surgical strike or to deal with new threats emerging like the Nids and Necrons.
GambleDwarf wrote: Its very unlikely that the Great Crusade would ever really be over, IIRC Loken while talking to a Captain of the Imperial Fists he basically makes fun of Loken for thinking that the Great Crusade will end, he believes that they will fight eternally in such a vast universe with untold amount of enemies.
I am with you on this matter, even if Emperor secured Milky Way he would still had to face Necrons and Tyranids later.
And if he established imperial Webway I have no doubt that he would try to stretch Imperium borders outside Milky Way into other galaxies. It will be eternal war all the way...
I don't think that he would get rid of Astartes, his quote on them shows how much he cares for them - so I highly doubt that he would destroy them like he did Thunder Warriors. I also read a while ago that one of the reason why Astartes from traitor legions rebelled is because they knew what would become of them after Great Crusade - glorified police force. And they didn't want that,
The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!
Then why did Empy create warriors better than the Space Marines, better at every level? Just to have them as his Praetorian Guards? That seems wasteful and shortsighted. Technological improvements would happen, so the Custodians would go from hard to produce to something quite easy to produce.
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
Beaviz81 wrote: Then why did Empy create warriors better than the Space Marines, better at every level? Just to have them as his Praetorian Guards? That seems wasteful and shortsighted. Technological improvements would happen, so the Custodians would go from hard to produce to something quite easy to produce.
Well it seems only natural, that the Emperor would want to be protected by his best warriors (and reserve the Custodians for his personal use only.) I mean the guy is the leading figure behind the Great Crusade and the Imperium of man, and thus needs to be protected by the very best of his creations.
btw I also think it is debatable whatever the Custodians are better than the Astartes “in every possible way.”
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/11 19:37:41
amanita wrote: So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?
Moktor wrote: No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
Maybe he didn't want the Space Marines to be *too good*. We already saw what happened when they got out of control, lol.
As it stands, the Space Marine is still the top tier elite trooper in the galaxy.
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
So basically Empy developed something better than the Space marines and he had no long term plans for that? Other than to serve as his bodyguards? For me the Custodians seem like the 262 Messerschmidt of WWII. Awesome but impractical at the current situation because of technological difficulties of producing them at the time. Then time moved on, and something even better came along, that's only natural.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/11 20:16:12
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
Beaviz81 wrote: So basically Empy developed something better than the Space marines and he had no long term plans for that? Other than to serve as his bodyguards? For me the Custodians seem like the 262 Messerschmidt of WWII. Awesome but impractical at the current situation because of technological difficulties of producing them at the time. Then time moved on, and something even better came along, that's only natural.
The Custodes didn't always serve as just his bodyguards. He sent them on missions throughout the galaxy during the times of the Great Crusade and the Heresy. It's possible that their creation wasn't applicable for mass production, since we don't know much about their creation in the first place.
I'm pretty sure the Emperor created the Space Marines to unite the Galaxy and then, once the Crusade was over, keep the peace and hold it together. I doubt he was just going to toss the most powerful fighting force the galaxy had ever seen aside. Most of the primarchs were conditioning their men for life after war, so it's implied they would have had their place in Imperial society. What that place was, we'll never know for sure, but I'm sure it was there. We've seen what happens when Space Marines think they're being mistreated by their higher-ups. I'm sure the Emperor would have foreseen a rebellion if he told his most loyal soldiers "Hey guys, I used you, see ya'!" After all, this is exactly the situation that Erebus used to convince Horus to rebel. The whole idea that the Emperor didn't actually care about any of his sons seems a tad fishy to me. After all, if he didn't care about them, why was he so hesitant about killing Horus at the Siege of Terra?
To add, in the HH novels, it is implied there was this kind of overly ambitious outlook that fed throughout the Imperium. I think it was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the whole "there is only war" concept. It seemed that most of the Imperium, including the Space Marines, thought that there would be an end to the fighting. There would be galactic peace. They were able to foresee a bright future of peace and prosperity under the Imperial truth. That was never to be, and arguably (as Sigismund seemed to profess to Loken in Horus Rising) never could be.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/11 20:32:28
Well he might have had a place for his sons afterwards, and it wasn't like he gave the Thunder Warriors fair warning. He just struck at them. For me it's sort of an evolution, it's a reason why the military went from musket, to rifled musket, to breachloader, to repeating rifle, to assault rifle, to compact assault rifle. Technological evolution. The HH stopped Empy from completely develop the third generation supermen. The Custodians are proto-types in my view, perfect, but can't be mass-produced like a Space Marine.
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
Beaviz81 wrote: Well he might have had a place for his sons afterwards, and it wasn't like he gave the Thunder Warriors fair warning. He just struck at them.
Where's the source for that? I was under the impression that he designed them to die out. I was pretty sure he designed them to die because they were less advanced than the Space Marines and caused the Emperor to fear their stability as a fighting force. It was implied that the Emperor feared that their physical and mental instability would cause them to rebel; a tongue in cheek reference to the Horus Heresy. Most of them died from mental breakdowns, degeneration, and debilitating tumors. The Emperor didn't betray them or "strike out" at them. They were a prototype that the Emperor perfected with the advent of the Space Marines. Their treatment doesn't establish a precedent for how the Emperor would treat the Space Marines.
The Emperor didn't design the Space Marines to die out like he did with the Thunder Warriors. If he was only using them as means to some end, (and nothing beyond that) he would have. He didn't. This implies he had a purpose for them beyond galactic unification. Additionally, if they were just tools, he would have killed Horus on the spot rather than hesitating like a sentimental old father.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/11 20:42:21
It's my suspicion due to reading about the last battle of the Thunder Warriors, but that might just as well be fanfiction. I just thought I read somewhere that they were wiped out just after the War of Unification in one last battle.
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
GambleDwarf wrote: Its very unlikely that the Great Crusade would ever really be over, IIRC Loken while talking to a Captain of the Imperial Fists he basically makes fun of Loken for thinking that the Great Crusade will end, he believes that they will fight eternally in such a vast universe with untold amount of enemies.
Also Roboute Gulliman's quote from Know No Fear comes to mind.
"Space Marines excel at warfare because they were designed to excel at everything. Each of you will become a leader, a ruler, the master of your world and, because there is no more fighting to be done, you will bend your transhuman talents to governance and culture."
As shown by the Ultramarines the SM could easily take over as just simple guardians of humanity, ever vigilant and watching over the people of the Imperium, helping where they can. Would really depend on the Legion though, how much involvement would actually happen between the SM and their ruling worlds.
Ooo boy he was deluded...This is simple question : " Are SM created to serve man, or to rule them ? "...I' dont see indoctrinated killers (even primarchs) as something more than a tools(insert Angron or Russ)...
Also remember how Sang was scared of sanction because of his mutation ? He said that Emp would never hasitate to decapitate his legion if they were a threat to a mankind in any way....
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/11 21:08:54
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
It seems just as likely though that given all the loyalist legions were split up into supposedly 1000 chapters of 1000 marines (obviously GW can't list 1000 as it has to keep reserved a section for new additions and custom chapters), giving a total of 1,000,000 Astartes. Multiplying that by two to include the traitor legions, as they would have a place in the Emperors pre-heresy plans, thats still only 2,000,000 Astartes. Now supposing the galaxy contains trillions of humans, it seems very feasible that the Astartes were destined simply to be peacekeepers - easily produced and easily expendable to police a galaxy that is unfeasible large. Of course, that's just assuming there's peace in THIS galaxy. I'm not sure the Emperor would have ever stopped, or at least I think, using the Imperial Webway, he would have at least ventured into the next galaxy, and in that galaxy he could possibly have found even more Xenos - lets face it, the Tyranids are plainly not from this galaxy. So the Astartes would possibly never stop being used. Sure there's the Custodians - but even the name suggests they are just guards - even if they are more superior to the Astartes.
The Great Crusade forces bears a very similar resemblance to Alexander the Greats army. You have the Companion Custodians, equal to Alexanders Mounted Companions (but actually no genetically different from the standard Custodians), then the standard Custodians equal to Alexanders Hypaspists, then really the Astartes just make up the bulk being equal to the standard Phalangists of Alexanders army. Each of them has a distinct role and justifies it's own inclusion. Even if there was a galactic peace, it's humanities nature to seek conflict, so the Emperor, being the essence of humanity distilled, would simply seek further conquest, using the Astartes as an expendable force.
However, this is simply my opinion, and as a side-note, I'm quite aware that Macharius was modelled on Alexander the Great, not (as far as i'm aware) the Emperor.
Beaviz81 wrote: It's my suspicion due to reading about the last battle of the Thunder Warriors, but that might just as well be fanfiction. I just thought I read somewhere that they were wiped out just after the War of Unification in one last battle.
Not according the The Outcast Dead and Horus Heresy Book I: Betrayal. Those books seem to affirm that they died due to genetic deficiencies that were instituted by the Emperor to make sure they died. So technically he did kill them, but it's not like he turned around and shot them all. He never intended to allow them to live past the unification. If he intended to kill off the Space Marines, they would have had similar genetic deficiencies. Unless the Emperor had some big red button that killed every Space Marine, I think it's safe to say he had at least some intention of allowing them to survive with their own place in the post-Great Crusade Imperium. Not to mention, unless he had said big red button, how exactly (without the genetically bred defects seen in the Thunder Warriors) did he plan to get rid of the Space Marines? He was barely able to deal with half of them even while he was being defended by the other half. If all eighteen rebelled after learning they were just the Emperor's pawns, how was the Emperor going to stop them from wiping out Terra?
The only solution I see is that he was making, as you said, a third generation of super soldiers. However, there's no precedent fluff that even implies he was doing that.
Ooo boy he was deluded...This is simple question : " Are SM created to serve man, or to rule them ? "...I' dont see indoctrinated killers as something more...but that's me....
Which is why the primarchs were teaching their Legions to be more than just killers. They were teaching them to be leaders, teachers, and philosophers so that when all the fighting was over, they could be something more than the killers they were forced to be. Recognize that most Space Marines were only identified as "indoctrinated killers" because that's what they were required to do. Kill and do the dirty work for the Imperium so that the good people didn't have to. That doesn't mean that that was all they were capable of doing. They weren't made to serve or rule men. They were made as fighters that would one day be able to integrate themselves into normal human society. The Salamanders managed to do it just fine with the people of their home planet. Even the Alpha Legion learned to interact with humans on an equal level. Guilliman was a little full of himself, and there was probably some over-embellishment in that specific quote, but there's a bit of truth to what he was saying. I think it was more of an allusion to Space Marines becoming more than soldiers.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/11 21:14:16
^ IOM is absolute - mankind is No.1. In the grimdark of 30k-40k there is only war and SM were created to unite the mankind,so why do you think they have any right to rule them...?
All traitors (except TS) + SW,BA,WS,DA,RG,IH do you consider them and their P as future philosophers ? Poets ?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/11 22:22:55
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Beaviz81 wrote: Rulers, Planetary Governors? Anything else but entertainment? Do people really want them unleashed on society at all?
Or do they have any right ? They aren't even human...
I'm just wondering what feat from SM would make him better then regular dude ? Two brains :-)? Longer lifespan ? Extra giblets ?
O I know, it's because most of them are sympathetic and good towars humans...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/11 22:22:10
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for your points Marko, I can't really see any good reason for Empy to have the Space Marines except for waging war.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/11 22:30:38
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
DarthMarko wrote: ^ IOM is absolute - mankind is No.1. In the grimdark of 30k-40k there is only war and SM were created to unite the mankind,so why do you think they have any right to rule them...? All traitors (except TS) + SW,BA,WS,DA;RG do you consider them and their P as future philosophers ? Poets ?
You misinterpreted what I said. First of all, I specifically said that the Space Marines weren't meant to rule humanity. Most of the citizens of the Imperium, in the 31st millennium, believed that there would be an end to war. There would no longer be any fighting. The Galaxy would be united in a galactic peace under the light of Imperial truth. When this happened, and only when this happened, the Space Marines would integrate themselves into society. They would interact with humanity as equals. Legions like the Imperial Fists and even the Iron Warriors would become builders and craftsmen. Legions like the Word Bearers and Ultramarines could (not by force) become political leaders and philosophers. The Salamanders and the Alpha Legion both (even in normal 40k canon) were able to integrate themselves with human society on an equal level. I think you greatly underestimate the Space Marines' capability for anything other than war. They aren't rabid dogs built for nothing but fighting. That's just what they had to do in order to unite the galaxy. They were designed to be well-rounded, not single-minded. In a galaxy where there was no war, they could definitely be future philosophers, poets, craftsmen, politicians, and teachers. Now, perhaps the one exception would be the World Eaters and the Space Wolves. Specifically the former. Honestly, I am of the opinion that if the galaxy was united in a peace, the World Eaters probably would have been exterminated since they were essentially indoctrinated to be nothing more than butchers and fighters. Space Wolves would probably have been used the same way they were being used during the Heresy. Subduing any Legions that rebelled. Now, of course, this is all in an ideal situation. This, of course, did not happen because of the Horus Heresy and the reality of the Emperor's vision. However, I believe that this was the original intention the Emperor had. He wanted the Space Marines to become more than just warriors. He wanted them to become leaders in Imperial society not because of some forced political power, but because they were viewed and idolized as pictures of greatness and superiority.
You seem to think that every Space Marine is a World Eater.
P.S. What does it matter that they aren't human? They're viewed as revered demigods even without having any actual power over humanity. And they aren't viewed as "better" than humans or "more important". Hell, when the Mournival killed a bunch of civilians in False Gods because they were in the way of trying to save Horus' life, they were going to be put to death for murder. They aren't above humans in a pompous, superior sense. They are revered and idolized, which makes them good leaders. Not to mention, from a biological standpoint, they are superior to humans. It's also worth mentioning that they were human. A lot of them still retain large amounts of their humanity. This is seen greatest in Garviel Loken, Tarik Torgaddon, Saul Tarvitz, and Nathaniel Garro.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/11 22:38:14
Well, not all of them are WE - but look at the end result and some legions....Best engineers went beserk on their world, Lorgar reinvented religion (wrong one) and some primarch went emo...
My understanding of the grimdark is that everything is expandable, particularly SM...Also majority of Rob's brothers (even Emperor) would disagree with him...
I do get your opinion - but "fear to tread" changed my opinion when Sanguinius showed how easy they are disposable in Empys eyes....
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for your points Marko, I can't really see any good reason for Empy to have the Space Marines except for waging war.
Lol
SM Haiku :-)
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/01/11 23:30:00
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
I'm pretty sure the Emperor created the Space Marines to unite the Galaxy and then, once the Crusade was over, keep the peace and hold it together. I doubt he was just going to toss the most powerful fighting force the galaxy had ever seen aside. Most of the primarchs were conditioning their men for life after war, so it's implied they would have had their place in Imperial society. What that place was, we'll never know for sure, but I'm sure it was there. We've seen what happens when Space Marines think they're being mistreated by their higher-ups. I'm sure the Emperor would have foreseen a rebellion if he told his most loyal soldiers "Hey guys, I used you, see ya'!" After all, this is exactly the situation that Erebus used to convince Horus to rebel. The whole idea that the Emperor didn't actually care about any of his sons seems a tad fishy to me. After all, if he didn't care about them, why was he so hesitant about killing Horus at the Siege of Terra?
To add, in the HH novels, it is implied there was this kind of overly ambitious outlook that fed throughout the Imperium. I think it was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the whole "there is only war" concept. It seemed that most of the Imperium, including the Space Marines, thought that there would be an end to the fighting. There would be galactic peace. They were able to foresee a bright future of peace and prosperity under the Imperial truth. That was never to be, and arguably (as Sigismund seemed to profess to Loken in Horus Rising) never could be.
You misinterpreted what I said. First of all, I specifically said that the Space Marines weren't meant to rule humanity. Most of the citizens of the Imperium, in the 31st millennium, believed that there would be an end to war. There would no longer be any fighting. The Galaxy would be united in a galactic peace under the light of Imperial truth. When this happened, and only when this happened, the Space Marines would integrate themselves into society. They would interact with humanity as equals. Legions like the Imperial Fists and even the Iron Warriors would become builders and craftsmen. Legions like the Word Bearers and Ultramarines could (not by force) become political leaders and philosophers. The Salamanders and the Alpha Legion both (even in normal 40k canon) were able to integrate themselves with human society on an equal level. I think you greatly underestimate the Space Marines' capability for anything other than war. They aren't rabid dogs built for nothing but fighting. That's just what they had to do in order to unite the galaxy. They were designed to be well-rounded, not single-minded. In a galaxy where there was no war, they could definitely be future philosophers, poets, craftsmen, politicians, and teachers. Now, perhaps the one exception would be the World Eaters and the Space Wolves. Specifically the former. Honestly, I am of the opinion that if the galaxy was united in a peace, the World Eaters probably would have been exterminated since they were essentially indoctrinated to be nothing more than butchers and fighters. Space Wolves would probably have been used the same way they were being used during the Heresy. Subduing any Legions that rebelled. Now, of course, this is all in an ideal situation. This, of course, did not happen because of the Horus Heresy and the reality of the Emperor's vision. However, I believe that this was the original intention the Emperor had. He wanted the Space Marines to become more than just warriors. He wanted them to become leaders in Imperial society not because of some forced political power, but because they were viewed and idolized as pictures of greatness and superiority.
I can totally imagine 18 Space Marines ( one from each Legion ) get together, going from world to world, and doing this after Great Crusade was over:
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/11 23:24:16
The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!
Number one reason why I believe the Space Marines were not meant to be discarded like the Thunder Warriors: the Primarchs. We know that the Emperor intended for all 20 of his sons to live and return to Terra by the quarters in the palace from Deliverance Lost. Now imagine how that would go over if he just killed/orchestrated the death and decay of all of their warriors, who many of them view and treat as their children. No, in order to keep the Primarchs you also have to keep the Legions.
As for Astartes as planetary rulers, the precedent was there. It was already happening in Ultramar what with the Triarchs or whatever they were called (talked about in Know No Fear), and I believe in Angel Exterminatus they talked about a planet's population being actively upset when Perturabo and the Iron Warriors left (I may be mixing that up with another Legion in which case it would have been in Shadows of Treachery, just finished that and started Angel Exterminatus recently). Planets that submitted to the Imperial Truth willingly tended to have a lot of respect for the Marines.
With them being reintegrated into society, I feel like they could also then act as a semi-standing militia. They don't need to be at arms and on duty at all times, but when a situation presented itself they would be able to muster and deploy in short order, at least enough time that the Imperial Army can deal with it for a little without being overrun.
Eldar shenanigans are the best shenanigans! DQ:90S++G+M--B+IPw40k09#+D++A++/areWD-R++T(T)DM+
MandalorynOranj wrote: Number one reason why I believe the Space Marines were not meant to be discarded like the Thunder Warriors: the Primarchs.
TH Sm where a back up plan made from leftovers from when he lost his pet project. They were not his sons, the Primarchs were not his sons, they were tool he would have disgaurded when he was finished with them as he did with everything else. The man was no longer human and he was a donkey-cave like no other.
Engine of War wrote:Duct Tape! the Ommnisiahs blessed bindings!
The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant! 
