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The most Warjacks I've ever seen a single Khador caster run is 3. And that was still clunky, but 3 Spriggans is pretty effective.

 Chongara wrote:

 The Wolf Of Fenria wrote:
Which has the most? Does Khador have many good 'jacks?Seeing as I'm going to collect Khador as a primary army, and I have ordered a Prime Mk II rulebook, I wonder if I can take an army of warjacks with Black Ivan, Torch, and all of the other 'jack characters led by Stratikov or someone...

If you want to run Warjack heavy do not play Khador. You will get frustrated and either restart with a new army or quit the game all together. With the exceptions of a couple casters (and not even the best ones!), Khador is an infantry faction through-and-through. Khador has by far the highest attrition rate amongst new players who see it and go "Huge Warjacks" "Dudes in steam armor" "cool!" and then find all those things are very limited, to maybe handful of lists that actually work.

Khador is the faction of seas of conscripted infantry backed up by a few elites, some gangsters and a crazy dudes with swords that whisper in their head.

Well, I like the Khador warjacks, and if the cap per caster is low, I'll get more casters. Simple.
I also like Cygnar, do they have a high 'jack cap? If not, I'll get them anyway for the nice infantry.

Cygnar depends on the warcaster, but I notice most run two warjacks on average, usually a light and a heavy/Stormwall. Some warcasters support decent number of warjacks in herently though or have rules that encourage more, such as Nemo2, Sloan, Kraye, or Darius.

And stuff.

Cygnar also has a few units that can Jack Marshal, which can squeeze another Warjack in there. Not counting Junior.

 The Wolf Of Fenria wrote:

 Chongara wrote:

 The Wolf Of Fenria wrote:
Which has the most? Does Khador have many good 'jacks?Seeing as I'm going to collect Khador as a primary army, and I have ordered a Prime Mk II rulebook, I wonder if I can take an army of warjacks with Black Ivan, Torch, and all of the other 'jack characters led by Stratikov or someone...

If you want to run Warjack heavy do not play Khador. You will get frustrated and either restart with a new army or quit the game all together. With the exceptions of a couple casters (and not even the best ones!), Khador is an infantry faction through-and-through. Khador has by far the highest attrition rate amongst new players who see it and go "Huge Warjacks" "Dudes in steam armor" "cool!" and then find all those things are very limited, to maybe handful of lists that actually work.

Khador is the faction of seas of conscripted infantry backed up by a few elites, some gangsters and a crazy dudes with swords that whisper in their head.

Well, I like the Khador warjacks, and if the cap per caster is low, I'll get more casters. Simple.
I also like Cygnar, do they have a high 'jack cap? If not, I'll get them anyway for the nice infantry.

Sadly, it isn't that simple :(. You can't just get "More Casters", unless you're playing at a *VERY* large points level.. say 100+ you can't bring more than 1 caster per game. Those are just the rules. Keep in mind most people don't play regularly above 50 and only once in a while will you see an event at 75. Adding more casters isn't an option. Seriously, I have no incentive to lie here: Khador is not the faction to play if you mostly want to play with Warjacks.

Cygnar does moderately well with a high warjack count. Depending on your caster they can handle 1-3, and they have the best 'Jack Marshals in the game and plus the journeyman warcaster solo. All in all you can reasonable expect to run about 3-4 'Jacks in Cygnar without hamstringing yourself or really limiting the casters you can use. It won't be the strongest list in the world but it'll be functional.

In Cygnar most casters can do this @ 50:
* Journeyman Warcaster runs any 'Jack happy on 2 focus (defender, for example)
*Gunmages marshal a ranged 'jack.
*Your caster runs 1 Hungry 'Jack and maybe one happy on a focus or 2.

If you want to leverage battlegroup spells a you can get away with 3 efficient jacks on your caster, especially if you have some non-focus to hit boost and Strangeways. That way you can use the single focus to boost to damage. He also works well with the marshal rules, he isn't a good marshal himself but can give a focus to say a Gun mage marshaled 'Jack.

Nemo, especially Nemo3 can pack in more.

They also like to bring along some mercs, usually as cannon fodder - Cygnar doesn't have good cannon fodder.

OK then. One more thing to refine my planned list. So Khador are very capable of drowning the enemy in carpets of conscripted infantry. Is it a good idea to pepper the enemy with Blaustavya fire from seas of Winter Guard Rifle Corps led by Forward Kommander Kratikoff? I've heard she is quite effective at leading WG,

The Rifle Corps is handy for plinking lightly armored targets at long range, at least with help from Kovnik Joe. Sorscha2 is a good choice to use with them, but the Winter Guard Infantry tend to see a lot more table time, as they're an excellent tarpit unit with great short range infantry-sweeping abilities and CRA with a base power of 12. Mind you, there's a pretty good argument for fielding both, with Joe providing improved accuracy for the Rifles while the infantry move up the field, then supporting their sprays.

 The Wolf Of Fenria wrote:
OK then. One more thing to refine my planned list. So Khador are very capable of drowning the enemy in carpets of conscripted infantry. Is it a good idea to pepper the enemy with Blaustavya fire from seas of Winter Guard Rifle Corps led by Forward Kommander Kratikoff? I've heard she is quite effective at leading WG,

Laughing man is pretty much correct here.

I have a lot of time for the Rifle Korps. In ways, i find them superior to the Winter Guard infantry (mainly in steamroller timed turns - its easier to deal with 10 shots, than 30+ spray attacks!) in quite a number of ways, but mainly due to their higher threat range. I've always found the 14" guns pay for themselves - fair enough, they lack the raw damage output of some of our other stuff, but the extra range means they're killing stuff a turn before regular winter guard infantry. and i've found that surviving to turn 2 to do damage, and surviving to turn 3 to do damage is a whole different ballgame! Now, as stated, their damage output, whilst reasonable, and quite sufficient to kill most infantry isnt a patch on what the raw destruction winter guard infantry can do, or else some of our other stuff. It can be alleviated to an extent - you'll need things like Aiyanna and Holt to beef them up, or else take other melee powerhouses (doom reavers, iron fangs etc) to apply axe to face, whilst these guys alpha strike, and pick off the first wave of the other guy's army.

As to Sorscha - she gives a lot to winterguard- re-rolled attack rolls, and an extra 2" movement. utter gold. her feat is impressive at boosting damage output, whilst shatterstorm is plain old good fun. and then there is iron flesh.

So yeah, you've got a good core there.

Only rerolled CRA shots, remember. So nothing for WGRC except Shatterstorm and a bit of movement, and their RAT is generally terrible enough that they want to stand still a lot.

OK, I've planned out a refined list:
Sorcha
Juggernaut warjack
Destroyer warjack
Decimator warjack (maybe Torch)
Man-O'-War Shock Troopers
Man-O'-War Demolition Corps
Winter Guard Rifle Corps
Winter Guard Rifle Corps
I don't know any of the points costs and don't know if ANY of them are useful (still awaiting a rulebook), but I have seen them be very effective. The Rifles are there for the purpose of mowing down medium to light infantry, the Destroyer launches shells at whatever comes too close, Sorscha freezes enemy casters and proceeds to smash them with Frostfang. The Decimator and the Demolition Corps pounds enemy 'jacks into the ground, while the Shocktroopers and Juggernaut can proceed with AXE TO FACE.

 Laughing Man wrote:
Only rerolled CRA shots, remember. So nothing for WGRC except Shatterstorm and a bit of movement, and their RAT is generally terrible enough that they want to stand still a lot.

indeed - correct on the re-rolled CRA. sorry, i should have been more specific.

that said, those 2" are pretty nifty. that pushes them up 29" up the board with a run/move, if necessary, and 4" extra opens up a lot of threat range for them. dont underestimate it.

regarding their low rat - thats what Kovnik Joe is for. boosted attack rolls for thr win.

 The Wolf Of Fenria wrote:
OK, I've planned out a refined list:
Sorcha
Juggernaut warjack
Destroyer warjack
Decimator warjack (maybe Torch)
Man-O'-War Shock Troopers
Man-O'-War Demolition Corps
Winter Guard Rifle Corps
Winter Guard Rifle Corps
I don't know any of the points costs and don't know if ANY of them are useful (still awaiting a rulebook), but I have seen them be very effective. The Rifles are there for the purpose of mowing down medium to light infantry, the Destroyer launches shells at whatever comes too close, Sorscha freezes enemy casters and proceeds to smash them with Frostfang. The Decimator and the Demolition Corps pounds enemy 'jacks into the ground, while the Shocktroopers and Juggernaut can proceed with AXE TO FACE.

A few comments:

(1) thats a big list! assuming max squad size, you're talking about 51pts. its HUGE to start the game with. No offense, start small. battle boxes, cut your teeth and then build up to 25pts. jumping right in at 50 will only get you overwhelmed.
(2) Sorscha doesnt really run multiple jacks all that well. you need either an excellent feat (eg Vlad, Strakhov), or a spell like full throttle, or unearthly rage to get the most out of running multiple jacks. As it is, all your jacks here will be completely starved for focus for most of the game. If you ask me, reduce your jack count to a maximum of 2. I personally think ranged jacks go quite well with sorscha and her feat, so the destroyer is fine (or else Black Ivan) and i do have a soft spot for decimators. that said, you're leaving our her best jack - Beast 09. He's not my personal favourite, but he offers a lot.
(3) 2 squads of Men O War? Too much, if you ask me. Men O War, strangely, are subtle. Now bear in mind, i happen to like them, whereas a lot of people dont. i think with the right caster/support, they can make a great anchor to a list. That said, they need that support, and Sorscha doesnt really offer it for 2 squads, on top of three jacks. You really need to be bringing Strakhov, Irusk, eIrusk, Butcher, or Vlad3 to the table if you want to get the absolute maximum out of your Men o War. THat said, they still have a role to play - tarpit. If you insist on fielding them, i'd reduce the MoW to 1 squad. And the question then changes - do you want them to be offensive (demo korps) or defensive (shock troops - they've got shield wall) Make your decision.
(4) 2 squads of winter guard riflemen? spam is rarely rewarded in this game. What happens when you come across heavy armour? Such as Cygnaran Sword Knights, in defensive line with arcane shield and deflection up? they're arm21. pow10s will not get through! What happens when you come up against stealth, and all this ranged ability is lost, and your Men o War and Jacks are still 12" behind because they cant get up there in time? its not just the numbers - you need the support pieces as well. 1 squad of riflemen is fantastic. if you take Kovnik Joe, you can basically double their usefulness (he is the coolest guy in Khador). Take Aiyanna and Holt if you want to boost their damage abilities, or let them shoot incorporeal models. If anything, i'd drop one squad of riflemen, and replace with widowmakers (because sniper is just that awesome), and Kovnik Joe.
(5) beyond that, you have no not-slow melee punch there. Some Iron Fangs or Doom Reavers would make an excellent addition.

For me, a sample 35pt army would end up looking more like this:

Sorscha.
Sylas Wishnayler.
Destroyer.
Black Ivan.
Winter Guard Rifle Korps.
Kovnik Joe
Widowmakers.
6 iron Fangs, or else the Great Bears.

Right so, of all these, number 1 is the most important. start small. then built up. Learn your games at the battlebox level and expand slowly to 15/25pts. then think about joining the full games. trust me, otherwise the game will be a shock to the system!

I was wondering what I had forgotten! The 2 player battle box comes with the Khador things. The Shocktroopers, Juggernaut, Destroyer and Sorscha come from there. The rest on that list is just expansion, and as I learn how stuff like warjacks and MOW play, I will expand based on what seems best.
I really do want the Rifles though, simply for the unease on the opponent's face when 20 riflemen line up in front of him, or, in the case of the opponent who dismisses Winter Guard as "cannon fodder", the unhappiness as a squad of light infantry are decimated.
Also, I have watched a battle report by Wargamergirl on Youtube. Those Widowmakers are beasts. Prior to getting a second squad of rifles, the warband could use some of them...

 The Wolf Of Fenria wrote:
I was wondering what I had forgotten! The 2 player battle box comes with the Khador things. The Shocktroopers, Juggernaut, Destroyer and Sorscha come from there. The rest on that list is just expansion, and as I learn how stuff like warjacks and MOW play, I will expand based on what seems best.
I really do want the Rifles though, simply for the unease on the opponent's face when 20 riflemen line up in front of him, or, in the case of the opponent who dismisses Winter Guard as "cannon fodder", the unhappiness as a squad of light infantry are decimated.
Also, I have watched a battle report by Wargamergirl on Youtube. Those Widowmakers are beasts. Prior to getting a second squad of rifles, the warband could use some of them...

With all due respect, learn the basics of the 2-player starter before even thinking about expanding. all those additions? Yeah, save them for "down the line".

As to "unease" for facing 20 riflemen - i'll agree to an extent. But no one dismisses the winter guard. ever. everyone knows what Kovnik Joe and his boys are capable of. 20 shots might sound scary. and it can be. until i decide to counter it, and fight back. first up, you dont have kovnik Joe. that on its own reduced the rifle korps from "excellent" to "reasonable". As to facing them, 20 riflemen doesnt scare me anymore than dozens of other builds, and in ways, by focusing so much on one aspect, it makes them easier to counter. Without even building a specific counter list, i'll give3 examples of how i'd deal with it. i'll point out that my tharn ravagers have advance deploy, spd6, and arm16 with Kromac. If i go first, it means you've got 1, maybe 2 turns to shoot them with POW10s, and on average, even if you're plinking them with 1 hit per shot (assuming all your shots even hit). i've still got 7 guys, 56 wounds between them. and on turn 1 when they run, they're 25" up the board. turn 2, they're charging. POW10s mean jack to them. then there are my tharn bloodtrackers. DEF14 ARM11. quite squishy, but they have stealth. all your 20 shots from beyond 5" automatically miss. 20 worthless shots a turn.How about with my Khador, and my stealthed DEF19 Kayazy. How about ARM21 sword knighyts? I've got to weather 1 turn of shooting if i go first, and 2 if i go second before i engage. WHen it comes to killing them, i've got Krueger and chain lightning, and his feat. I'll shred them all in a turn. How about pCaine. pFeora. pAsphyxious. they'll murder them without even breaking a sweat.

Spam doesnt work. this is a game where everything can kill everything else. the more spammy/extreme the build is, the more hard counters you will face. Rifle Korps are great, but like everything else in this game, they're great as part of a greater army, rather than being the entirely of the army. they're a great unit with excellent threat range, but their targets are more limited than other units (ie squishy infantry), and they struggle with high ARM and the usual things that crush ranged abilities.

I appreciate you're looking into this with all the non-experience of someone who has never played, and its cool - we all have to learn this game the hard way. but please, take what i, and the others have said under advisement.

IMO I wouldn't take two squads of rifles. Honestly, I would take regular WGI before the rifles as they're cheaper and most likely as good/better with the UA.

Important note: the sorscha that gives the desperate pace and iron flesh and rerolls CRA is eSorscha, the battleboxes come with pSorcha

I'm so confused... I'm told that Khador is the faction for seas of conscripted infantry, then I'm told that the conscripted infantry are CRAP, someone, please, just TELL ME HOW TO MAKE THIS WORK!

Buy the battlebox, build it, paint it and play a lot of games with it. Until you know the basic rules, you will not be able to play a larger force effectively at all. Once you have the basic rules, start learning the more complex ones like power attacks. Also add in a unit of infantry to learn how they work. It's not the same as 40k. You need to learn how all the rules interact with the different models and their types. Also pay attention to your playstyle. I can give you a tournament list, but it may not suit you playstyle and you won't do very well with it.

You'll probable lose a lot. Don't worry, but ask your opponent for help and advice on what you did wrong and how you could have played more efficiently or better. There are a lot of thins going on in even a small game that can kill you unless you see it coming. And that is where you need to focus before moving on.

My opponent is ALSO a 13 year old who I'm going to share the battle box with, so I do not have high hopes for learning anything from him. But I suppose I should scratch the planned expansions until I have a few games under my belt, expand based on what I have trouble killing.
I will post a report on my first battle once all is painted and all rules read in WMH Battle Reports, so look out for that please. It'll probably be up by the 3rd of Febuary.
Battle box and rulebook expected by Thursday...

 The Wolf Of Fenria wrote:
I'm so confused... I'm told that Khador is the faction for seas of conscripted infantry, then I'm told that the conscripted infantry are CRAP, someone, please, just TELL ME HOW TO MAKE THIS WORK!

The reason you have seas of conscripted infantry is because they are crap.

Of course both descriptors are relative.



When I face Khador I typically see the following.


Warcaster

1-2 Warjacks

Unit of Winter Guard with UA and Kovnik Joe

2 WG mortars

Kayazy assassins with UA

Unit of Widowmakers with Widowmaker Solo.

 The Wolf Of Fenria wrote:
I'm so confused... I'm told that Khador is the faction for seas of conscripted infantry, then I'm told that the conscripted infantry are CRAP, someone, please, just TELL ME HOW TO MAKE THIS WORK!

here is the thing. in the fluff, Khador has a conscript army (as opposed to cygnar's professional one) and they have at a rough count, 400,000-500,000 men and women under arms. quite a large proportion of these will be your winter guard conscripts.

So yes, they have "seas of conscripted infantry". then again, in game terms, this is a skirmish games. having 30 models on the board at 50points marks your army as HUGE. this is the difference in scale between warmachine and games like 40k, where it is easy to have hundreds of models on the board, such as the Imperial Guard, and Ork and Tyranid hordes. Bear in mind that "skirmish game" and "the size of the army in the fluff" are two separate and distinct things.

as to the conscripted infantry being "crap". No, they're not. No one here has said that. In fact, most have been extremely positive about the Winter Guard because we know how devastatingly good they can be, when they're supported right. What we've said is "dont spam them". And what you're doing is just spamming them. and taking lots and lots of rifles doods. and has been said, spam is a bad idea. Not Just Khador, or winter guard. Spamming any one unit in any army opens you up to severe match up issues. A properly supported squad of Riflemen (as in, 10man squad, Kovnik Joe, and a warcaster with the spell iron flesh) is one of the most disgusting units in the game. the same is true for the Winter Guard Infantry "Deathstar" (as in 10man WGinfantry squad, 3 rocketeers, officer+standard bearer, Kovnik Joe, and a warcaster with iron flesh). but as awesome as they are,there are things they'll struggle with. and there are things that can avoid them, ignore them, or kill them with this. and that, in itself is a feature of this game. there is no one "best build". there is no "click and win" button. Everything is great, and can kill lotsof other stuff, but can be killed in turn by something else. its the nature of the game, and the nature of PPs style of game balance.

 The Wolf Of Fenria wrote:
My opponent is ALSO a 13 year old who I'm going to share the battle box with, so I do not have high hopes for learning anything from him. But I suppose I should scratch the planned expansions until I have a few games under my belt, expand based on what I have trouble killing.
I will post a report on my first battle once all is painted and all rules read in WMH Battle Reports, so look out for that please. It'll probably be up by the 3rd of Febuary.
Battle box and rulebook expected by Thursday...

yes, thats the best way to make it work. if there is a local Pressganger, or other folks playing the game in your area, why not ask them for a few games too?

What do you mean by Pressganger?

Privateer Press has a group of people called Press Gangers. They are kinda like secondary play testers. They get new rule packets first so they can try them out, things like that.

Community representatives if you will.