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Rolling 3 dice and perils on a 12 or more is a %37.50 chance (See http://alumnus.caltech.edu/~leif/FRP/probability.html)

According to my calculations, if you are a chaos sorcerer with familiar is 14% (see attached diagram).

Anything that reduces the divination spam makes me happy.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

fireworm21 wrote:
It also doesn't work against 5 of the army's, ( tau Templars daemons d eldar and necrons) so it is circumstantial.

With the obvious exception of crons and DE those armies are some of the least played in 40k, so your point is moot.

And it's only a major issue for Tyranids and Grey Knights and ironically enough Eldar themselves, so your moot is a moat that's not entrenching a point. Unless you really have to rely on your psychers in which case you might just have to suck it up. You know, like an Eldar player does if he's fielding Eldar.

But by all means, let's trade. Shred on Shuri and 20 point discount on all codex and WD skimmers sounds like a fair trade?

 Mahtamori wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

fireworm21 wrote:
It also doesn't work against 5 of the army's, ( tau Templars daemons d eldar and necrons) so it is circumstantial.

With the obvious exception of crons and DE those armies are some of the least played in 40k, so your point is moot.

And it's only a major issue for Tyranids and Grey Knights and ironically enough Eldar themselves, so your moot is a moat that's not entrenching a point. Unless you really have to rely on your psychers in which case you might just have to suck it up. You know, like an Eldar player does if he's fielding Eldar.

But by all means, let's trade. Shred on Shuri and 20 point discount on all codex and WD skimmers sounds like a fair trade?

Seems fair to me! And give farseers power weapons in addition to witchblades while you're at it


Von Chogg

 Mahtamori wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

fireworm21 wrote:
It also doesn't work against 5 of the army's, ( tau Templars daemons d eldar and necrons) so it is circumstantial.

With the obvious exception of crons and DE those armies are some of the least played in 40k, so your point is moot.

And it's only a major issue for Tyranids and Grey Knights and ironically enough Eldar themselves, so your moot is a moat that's not entrenching a point. Unless you really have to rely on your psychers in which case you might just have to suck it up. You know, like an Eldar player does if he's fielding Eldar.

But by all means, let's trade. Shred on Shuri and 20 point discount on all codex and WD skimmers sounds like a fair trade?

Well... it could work ... actually, since my buddy plays a fluffy army (no seer council and no war-walkers) we usually agree to let the eldars have some point more ( I play a semi-competitive list)


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I'd prefer to give Shuri a decent range instead of shred... shredding or not, those guardians/avengers are going to die next turn in cc...

I am an elder player and I HATE runes of warding. I'm tired of my opponent saying, "Oh, you have eldar? Well I'm not going to run a psker anymore." I have to agree with them. It's stupid having a rule that just makes psykers completely useless. It should have a 24" range. at least it's fair.

No it isn't fair. If the one guy we almost HAVE to take, a Farseer, were any kind of survivable in close combat, and had any means of killing enemy characters in a challenge or enemy troops when not in a challenge I might agree with you. But as it is now it is far from fair if Runes of Warding were nerfed to 24" range.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
While I agree that Runes of Warding are OP, and pretty much does ensure that Eldar players rarely have to face enemy psykers, I'd rather just wait until their codex gets redone. I'm sure it will get nerfed significantly unless Matt Ward writes the book.

My first army was Eldar, and I would be overjoyed to have Mr Ward write the new codex.

Note: I care almost nothing for the fluff, so he can have Eldrad serving tea to Slaanesh and I wouldn't care.

I think maybe the fairest way to change it would be if you are within 24" it's a test on 3d6 as normal, any distance after that, the Eldar player has to roll a 4+ to make you test on 3d6, before you roll to test of cause.

I really don't see what's so bad. A rune priest is (a) more survivable, and (b) has equally good powers and (c) is in a better codex.

I play straight Tau, and I don't even care about psyker defenses - I have no psykers, and no defense against them. I don't see how RoW make anything less "fun" as well - Isn't it more fun to take a real risk every now and then? Like that time I charged 2 terminators with 6 fire warriors; they didn't fail leadership at the end of both assault phases, so it won me the game since the termies couldn't get onto my objective.

I actually remember that game, as opposed to the myriad times I've been longfang'd and JotWW'd into oblivion by turn 2/3. Just like I remember the game I managed to win against GK purifier spam while playing 'Nids. I took risks; They paid off, and I had fun, as did my opponent.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
No it isn't fair. If the one guy we almost HAVE to take, a Farseer, were any kind of survivable in close combat, and had any means of killing enemy characters in a challenge or enemy troops when not in a challenge I might agree with you. But as it is now it is far from fair if Runes of Warding were nerfed to 24" range.

The role of the farseer is not to fight enemy characters. He's a support character designed to buff the troops around him or hinder enemy troops. That's why he's only 55 pts. If you want a close combat monster to take out enemy HQ, go with the avatar.

I am an eldar player and I would be happy to see ROW reduced to something like 24-36" range if, and only if, Eldar got an updated, balanced, fairly costed 6th edition codex with a decent number of builds and options available (like csm and dark angels plus a fair few of the late 5th edition armies have).

Until that happens, Eldar should be left to enjoy one of the few decent abilities and units they have (Eldrad/Farseers, Fire Dragons, Dire Avengers and Warp Spiders are OK, War Walkers). Everything else pretty much stinks in a strictly competitive sense right now.

Although, even when the new codex for Eldar hits, I hope the author remembers the fluff where the Eldar are meant to be the oldest, most powerful and disciplined pyskers in the galaxy that can eat a rune priest or librarian for breakfast in a psychic duel but would struggle in a fist fight with one. It is time that they acted like it in the game as well as the background.

 ironhammer2194 wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
No it isn't fair. If the one guy we almost HAVE to take, a Farseer, were any kind of survivable in close combat, and had any means of killing enemy characters in a challenge or enemy troops when not in a challenge I might agree with you. But as it is now it is far from fair if Runes of Warding were nerfed to 24" range.

The role of the farseer is not to fight enemy characters. He's a support character designed to buff the troops around him or hinder enemy troops. That's why he's only 55 pts. If you want a close combat monster to take out enemy HQ, go with the avatar.

That is exactly my point. Eldar Farseers are not supposed to be anywhere near combat. yet if Runes of Warding were nerfed to 24 " range then that is exactly where you would see Farseers at. In close combat. That is where Eldar would have to play them to get any kind of Spell protection. Guys like Njal and Rune Priests/Space Marine Librarians (you know, the guys that in this thread have been pointed to as having had the nerf bat taken to them so why shouldn't Eldar farseers have the same?) are ok if they get that close to someone because they have Terminator armour, a higher toughness, and are usually surrounded by guys in power armour with a toughness of 4, or even better, guys in terminator armour with a toughness of 4 and Storm Shields.

Eldar Farseers are not. With the way 6th edition made it easier to kill characters in close combat Eldar Farseers don't belong anywhere near it. You can target them with 6s in close combat now, and you can challenge them out. And with the new FAQ, characters in a challenge cannot use the toughness of the squad they are with so if you tried to run a wraithguard list and it got into combat, your farseer would no longer be tougness 6 but now toughness 3...with a 4+ invul save as the only thing standing between him and whatever monster close combat character got thrown into the wraithguard. Is that where you would want your Farseer? no.

So nerfing Runes of Warding to only work at ranges where the Farseer gets engaged very quickly is stupid. It needs to be left alone.

Alternately, simply up the number to perils by 2 and i think people would stop complaining. As it is, you are periling about 40% of the time. At 14, you would peril about 15% of the time which would mean that, while runes shut down psychic powers just as well, its still worth it to try to cast powers. It removes the problem of short range denial being counter to Eldar tactics and it nerfs RoW to a reasonable degree.

However, i still like my idea of 12"* mastery level for a bit of fluff that also stops the "farseer whoring" unless they want to spend a lot of points on a lv3 farseer (assuming they allow lv3, which they should, eldrad should be 4).

Either that or make runes of Warding a 'leader of the primary detachment only' type affair.
So Eldar still get it and it stops the farseer allies for rules abuses dead.

 zephoid wrote:
Alternately, simply up the number to perils by 2 and i think people would stop complaining. As it is, you are periling about 40% of the time. At 14, you would peril about 15% of the time which would mean that, while runes shut down psychic powers just as well, its still worth it to try to cast powers. It removes the problem of short range denial being counter to Eldar tactics and it nerfs RoW to a reasonable degree.

However, i still like my idea of 12"* mastery level for a bit of fluff that also stops the "farseer whoring" unless they want to spend a lot of points on a lv3 farseer (assuming they allow lv3, which they should, eldrad should be 4).

No, people wouldn't stop complaining. Any time you stop someone from doing something they paid points to be able to do i.e cast spells, they are going to complain. Anytime you have a counter to something, some people that are feeling the effects of that counter will complain. That will never stop unless you completely take Runes of Warding away or nerf them down so far that they become not worth taking at all. (which is exactly what Runes of Warding would be if nerfed to 24 " range.)

Opponents of the Eldar just have to realize that Eldar are masters of the psychic phase and suck it up. Eldar are designed to mess with you if you decide to use powers of the Warp to help your cause. They should make it hard on you. That's what they're all about. Nerfing them down to where they cannot do that means taking away one of the iconic things that makes Eldar what they are. Eldar are supposed to overpower you with psychic might. Runes of Warding is a part of that.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:

 ironhammer2194 wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
No it isn't fair. If the one guy we almost HAVE to take, a Farseer, were any kind of survivable in close combat, and had any means of killing enemy characters in a challenge or enemy troops when not in a challenge I might agree with you. But as it is now it is far from fair if Runes of Warding were nerfed to 24" range.

The role of the farseer is not to fight enemy characters. He's a support character designed to buff the troops around him or hinder enemy troops. That's why he's only 55 pts. If you want a close combat monster to take out enemy HQ, go with the avatar.

That is exactly my point. Eldar Farseers are not supposed to be anywhere near combat. yet if Runes of Warding were nerfed to 24 " range then that is exactly where you would see Farseers at. In close combat. That is where Eldar would have to play them to get any kind of Spell protection. Guys like Njal and Rune Priests/Space Marine Librarians (you know, the guys that in this thread have been pointed to as having had the nerf bat taken to them so why shouldn't Eldar farseers have the same?) are ok if they get that close to someone because they have Terminator armour, a higher toughness, and are usually surrounded by guys in power armour with a toughness of 4, or even better, guys in terminator armour with a toughness of 4 and Storm Shields.

Eldar Farseers are not. With the way 6th edition made it easier to kill characters in close combat Eldar Farseers don't belong anywhere near it. You can target them with 6s in close combat now, and you can challenge them out. And with the new FAQ, characters in a challenge cannot use the toughness of the squad they are with so if you tried to run a wraithguard list and it got into combat, your farseer would no longer be tougness 6 but now toughness 3...with a 4+ invul save as the only thing standing between him and whatever monster close combat character got thrown into the wraithguard. Is that where you would want your Farseer? no.

So nerfing Runes of Warding to only work at ranges where the Farseer gets engaged very quickly is stupid. It needs to be left alone.

I see where you're coming from, but in reality 24" is not close combat range. The only way you're going to get assaulted is if your opponent brought bikes and he rolled double 6's for their charge. Your example of terminators with storm shields trying to assault your farseer can easily be dealt with. Just guide a squad of dire avengers and bladestorm their arse. I have never heard of a player who was scared of getting assaulted by terminators that were 24" away. If you're scared of your farseer getting shot at, put him in a squad of pathfinders for a nice bullet shield.

 ironhammer2194 wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:

 ironhammer2194 wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
No it isn't fair. If the one guy we almost HAVE to take, a Farseer, were any kind of survivable in close combat, and had any means of killing enemy characters in a challenge or enemy troops when not in a challenge I might agree with you. But as it is now it is far from fair if Runes of Warding were nerfed to 24" range.

The role of the farseer is not to fight enemy characters. He's a support character designed to buff the troops around him or hinder enemy troops. That's why he's only 55 pts. If you want a close combat monster to take out enemy HQ, go with the avatar.

That is exactly my point. Eldar Farseers are not supposed to be anywhere near combat. yet if Runes of Warding were nerfed to 24 " range then that is exactly where you would see Farseers at. In close combat. That is where Eldar would have to play them to get any kind of Spell protection. Guys like Njal and Rune Priests/Space Marine Librarians (you know, the guys that in this thread have been pointed to as having had the nerf bat taken to them so why shouldn't Eldar farseers have the same?) are ok if they get that close to someone because they have Terminator armour, a higher toughness, and are usually surrounded by guys in power armour with a toughness of 4, or even better, guys in terminator armour with a toughness of 4 and Storm Shields.

Eldar Farseers are not. With the way 6th edition made it easier to kill characters in close combat Eldar Farseers don't belong anywhere near it. You can target them with 6s in close combat now, and you can challenge them out. And with the new FAQ, characters in a challenge cannot use the toughness of the squad they are with so if you tried to run a wraithguard list and it got into combat, your farseer would no longer be tougness 6 but now toughness 3...with a 4+ invul save as the only thing standing between him and whatever monster close combat character got thrown into the wraithguard. Is that where you would want your Farseer? no.

So nerfing Runes of Warding to only work at ranges where the Farseer gets engaged very quickly is stupid. It needs to be left alone.

I see where you're coming from, but in reality 24" is not close combat range. The only way you're going to get assaulted is if your opponent brought bikes and he rolled double 6's for their charge. Your example of terminators with storm shields trying to assault your farseer can easily be dealt with. Just guide a squad of dire avengers and bladestorm their arse. I have never heard of a player who was scared of getting assaulted by terminators that were 24" away. If you're scared of your farseer getting shot at, put him in a squad of pathfinders for a nice bullet shield.

Dude, read my post.

I didn't say I was afraid of being assulted by terminators. I said that Farseers are not as survivable as terminator armoured psykers. That's why Runes of Warding has such a long range. It is to be useful to a character designed to work at long range. Eldar Farseers were never designed to work up close. 24 inch range makes them have to work up close, which they are not designed to do.They are a toughness 3 model, with a 4+ invulnerable saving throw, with 1 attack. No Eldar player wants a guy with those stats within 24 inches of any enemy models.

Also, remember what I said about how long it would take to engage a farseer at 24 inch range? I didn't say it would happen in one turn. I said it would happen quickly. which to me means two turns. Eldar farseers want to keep from getting engaged at all. proposing a 24 inch range Runes of Warding makes them have to be close if they want to get any use out of it.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:

No, people wouldn't stop complaining. Any time you stop someone from doing something they paid points to be able to do i.e cast spells, they are going to complain. Anytime you have a counter to something, some people that are feeling the effects of that counter will complain. That will never stop unless you completely take Runes of Warding away or nerf them down so far that they become not worth taking at all. (which is exactly what Runes of Warding would be if nerfed to 24 " range.)

Opponents of the Eldar just have to realize that Eldar are masters of the psychic phase and suck it up. Eldar are designed to mess with you if you decide to use powers of the Warp to help your cause. They should make it hard on you. That's what they're all about. Nerfing them down to where they cannot do that means taking away one of the iconic things that makes Eldar what they are. Eldar are supposed to overpower you with psychic might. Runes of Warding is a part of that.

Part of the problem is that you dont just shut the powers down, you kill the psykers casting it very quickly. Casting 4-5 times a game stands a pretty good chance of killing a 2 wound psyker. twice for a 1 wound model. I have killed a tervigon with nothing but perils in one game. All 6 wounds. Admittedly unlucky, but still it proves the point. Shutting down powers is one thing, killing the psyker is another.

 zephoid wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:

No, people wouldn't stop complaining. Any time you stop someone from doing something they paid points to be able to do i.e cast spells, they are going to complain. Anytime you have a counter to something, some people that are feeling the effects of that counter will complain. That will never stop unless you completely take Runes of Warding away or nerf them down so far that they become not worth taking at all. (which is exactly what Runes of Warding would be if nerfed to 24 " range.)

Opponents of the Eldar just have to realize that Eldar are masters of the psychic phase and suck it up. Eldar are designed to mess with you if you decide to use powers of the Warp to help your cause. They should make it hard on you. That's what they're all about. Nerfing them down to where they cannot do that means taking away one of the iconic things that makes Eldar what they are. Eldar are supposed to overpower you with psychic might. Runes of Warding is a part of that.

Part of the problem is that you dont just shut the powers down, you kill the psykers casting it very quickly. Casting 4-5 times a game stands a pretty good chance of killing a 2 wound psyker. twice for a 1 wound model. I have killed a tervigon with nothing but perils in one game. All 6 wounds. Admittedly unlucky, but still it proves the point. Shutting down powers is one thing, killing the psyker is another.

Again, this falls into what Eldar do. They punish you very harshly for your insolence of thinking you can just use the Warp to help your cause. Eldar are purposely designed to hurt you if you cast spells. It is supposed to be that way. It is one of the few good things left in the codex with the changes from 4th to 5th to 6th.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:


Again, this falls into what Eldar do. They punish you very harshly for your insolence of thinking you can just use the Warp to help your cause. Eldar are purposely designed to hurt you if you cast spells. It is supposed to be that way. It is one of the few good things left in the codex with the changes from 4th to 5th to 6th.

I think you are missing the entire point of this thread. This isnt "Whats good about eldar", this is what should change in a NEW codex. Both the OP and almost every poster since have said the new codex needs to come first but most people would agree that RoW need changed. Every other psychic defense has been changed, some in the wrong ways (Psychic hood should have been nerfed to simply a 6" bubble to negate, rather than buffing DTW saves, Nids should never have had perils added and should still be board wide). RoW is too good as is, especially with a new codex. This thread was to determine ideas as to what it should be.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

I'd put a bit of money on the people who are butt hurting about this the most are spacewolves (JoTWW) and grey knights, two top top tier armies. You dont here tyranids, the people truely effected, complaining do you? Well...there used to it.

You don't see SW complaining because Njal can stop any power within 24" on a 3+. That screws over your Eldar.

I know that. And I totally disagree. Runes should ALWAYS be board wide. Why? because Eldar are the master psykers of the galaxy and should not be nerfed into being some silly wimpy shadow of their former selves. They've already been nerfed that way. They don't need it again. Being as dangerous as they are is what makes them Eldar. They used to rule the galaxy and some of that power needs to shine through on the up and coming Eldar.

By the way not every psyker got nerfed. Rune priests didn't get nerfed at all.

You still dont get it. Runes of warding are not some insanely powerful artifact that stops psychic powers, it simply makes it more difficult to manifest via the warp. Its not unlimited aura nor is the farseer directly impeding an enemy psyker. Instead its just harder to draw upon warp energies. This is a localized effect and could very well be a small effect. The quality of the runes would be pretty fluffy to be based on the quality of the farseer.

If it were kept board wide however, reducing the chance of perils would also more accurately reflect the nature of impeding manifestation. It should be hard to cast, but it should not interfere to a degree of Shadow in the Warp which can causes psykers to go mad simply by touching the warp.


Just because eldar are "master psykers of the galaxy" means nothing here. That should be reflected int he quality of their powers, not extended into every aspect of them to make them. Runes are not the farseer opposing the casting like counterspelling in fantasy.

PS, since psykers draw from the warp, wouldnt that make demons the best psykers? They dont even have to test. They have no psychic defense though.

Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't get it. I do get it, I just don't agree.

While you are right about what runes are, you forget that by that very nature they do stop psychic powers, just not always. That is why they are considered a subtle defense. I disagree that it should be a small effect. Eldar psykers are by their very nature more powerful than any human psyker barring maybe the Emperor. Why shouldn't their wargear reflect that? Right now Runes of Warding do and they always should.

And why shouldn't it interfere like Shadows of the Warp? They are messing with your mind with Runes. They are setting up psychic interferenece. What exactly do you think that means?

We know what it means from what the Runes of Warding currently do. It means they subtley mess with your ability to cast, causing you to take damage if you are not strong enough in your psychic ability to control the Warp.

And again, I disagree with you. It should be extended into every part of a Farseer. Farseers are like the exarch of the path of the seer. Everything about them should say Psychic aspect. Just like everything about the Exarchs of the Aspect Warriors says Warrior of this particular path.

And no, Daemons aren't the best psykers because they are not psykers at all, they are daemons. Psykers draw upon Warp energy. Daemons ARE warp energy. But Daemons are not necessarily psykers even though they are made of Warp energy. Nice try though.

While the average eldar is far more psychically attuned to warp energy, that does not mean their dedicated psykers are significantly stronger. Ahriman is considered on par with Eldrad, the strongest living psyker in the galaxy as of his death. Many of the other psykers are also considered to be on par with the stronger eldar psykers. Comparing any eldar farseer to the emperor is delusional.

Interfering with manifestation is much different than messing with your mind. Shadows in the Warp puts a layer between the area and the warp that touches directly into the hive mind. Its like opening your mid to the hive. The majority of astropaths go insane at the first attempt to contact outside the system and only the most trained psyker can ignore the influence of the hive mind.

Runes of warding dont "Stop psychic powers". They making touching the warp energy more strenuous. Its like a strong wind as you are carrying something heavy. You could topple over and hurt yourself but more likely you will just put the object down for a minute. A farseer directly contacting your mind is what the Mind War psychic power is doing which is why it makes sense for it do be able to kill you. Runes are simply impeding psychic manipulation.

Farseer runes dont have much fluff behind them so arguing anything about them is pretty pointless. I would assume a farseer would either have to manifest them, craft them, or find them. Therefore an older and more masterful psyker would make sense to have stronger runes. Simply be being a member of the eldar race and path of the seer has no bearing on how these runes would be obtained or created.

Demons can directly manipulate warp energy without having to pass through the membrane of the warp. While true that not all demons are psykers, those that are should be masters of it. Its like fighting a water elemental with water. It doesnt matter how you are manipulate that water, the concept is still the same. However, again, they have no psychic defense.

Ok guys, are you seriously arguing about daemons on an Eldar debate?



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either way I think understand why roadkill zombie wants Runes to stay the same considering Eldar don't have a lot of cheese to stand on and he/she likes the feeling of fielding an awesomely powerful psyker.

I am just tired of players who won't play a game against me unless I lose the Rnes.

Tell them you won't play a game against them if they use non-codex space marines (naturally without Vulkan), necrons or <that other stuff that's awesome in their codex>.

Regardless, it's a game and if one item is so powerful it makes it boring for others it should be fixed. If it's also one of the few things that's actually making a difference for you then that needs to be fixed as well.
Warding needs to be reigned in, it is destroying entire sections of most codices, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be reciprocated.

Also, the Farseer isn't 55 points, he's 75+ points. He's got to spend points on those powers, remember? The sad part is that we're discussing the Farseer as the only HQ worth mentioning in the Eldar army.

I agree. The avatar and autarch are both amazing hq choices and I have been using them in recent games to please the masses. (Still on a winning streak with em )


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I agree. The avatar and autarch are both amazing hq choices and I have been using them in recent games to please the masses. (Still on a winning streak with em )

I actually meant that the other way around (except the Avatar, although he tend to rely on Fortune too much), but if you're having success with them I wish you all the best.