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 Red Corsair wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jackster wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't mean dedicated assault units. I mean little things like how your CSM can get a cheap CC weapon in addition to the boltgun/bolt pistol. So when your shooty guys into into melee, they have an extra atttack! Throw in a mark of slaneesh, and they are a real foil for many meq assault teams, and they will absolutely mash tactical marines given the chance. Astartes marines that can shoot, usually can't do CC at all. This is not true for CSM or Space Wolves. ASM squads basically don't participate in the shooting phase.

By the end of the day, that all end up very expensive. A CSM with CCW, BP and Bolter cost more than a GH and has no ATSKNF or Counter Attack. The Cult Marines (Namely NM and PM) tend to end up more effective in comparisson.

At the end of the day, no meq can stack up to the grey hunter. So that comparison is not necessary. But start comparing your troops to Astartes tacticals and you'll see what I mean. ATSKNF doesn't matter as much if you win the CC.

And stop. This is a load of crap, chaos space marines units without fearless somehow (character or cult) are garbage in any effective number. They get pricey for decent hardware or a mark and have no reliable mobility and being swept sucks badly for a them, if they are msu then they still can't win an assault so you won't waste the points on the extra weapon if your smart. So basically your crying because you assault squad/priest has difficulty vs 10+ meq with a lord in there unit which is slowed because they should lose that fight and have the mobility to avoid the anyway.

I never mentioned a lord. I was talking about CSM troops vs Astartes tacticals and Astartes ASM. That's all. If CSM are shooting with CC backup, they don't need mobility necessarily. And again, tactical marines can't sweep them because they can't beat them in CC. It's a crap shoot if what remains of an ASM after shooting and overwatch can beat a squad of CSM with CC weapons. The answer is no for sure if they have mark of slanesh. They don't need fearless to be effective. I know this because I've seen them in action several times without fearless. They work fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:
I say stop wasting time with shooting and go for a bit of fluff and respect. This is Blood Angels vs Black Legion after all! Horus vs Sanguinius, IX vs XVI. Grudge match. Go for pure assault. Spam the hell out of Death Company and select your targets. Berserkers, Oblits and the Regular marines. He can't hold a torch to them in assault on the charge. Even with Mark of Khorne. I assume that Abbadon rolls with the Terminators? Throw the Death Company at them too, and even with AP3-6 or worse, the amount of attacks will kill. The assault marines can drop in can drop vehicles like nobodies buisness.

As for Abbadon himself, yeah, he's a tough nut to crack. Try Dante. Reduce Abaddon's stats to a respectable level, then hurl a few shots his way, even throw Sanguinior and his Assassin style at him.

Even consider taking allies. Try Grey Knights. Some Terminators for objective holding, an Inquistor for HQ, and one of the assassins. Eversor or Vindicare. Not even Abbadon stands up to 2 wounds per turn which ignore LoS!

Shooting is not a waste of time. BA must shoot now to have any chance of making CC work vs many armies, which makes finding a balance for an all comers list very difficult.

Thats my point, large csm units are not worth their investment without a lord to give them fearless! Small units are but then they don't have the survivability to justify kitting out.Trust me, in order to give them i5 and the extra attack they cost 17 pts a fig and are only ld 8/9 with the champ who btw has to challenge meaning you have to risk dropping to 8 which can and will be taken advantage of I know I play CSM. Meaning any size-able unit, which is required to do what you have suggested, out costs tac marines by a hefty margin and doesn't have combat tactics, combat squads or ATSKNF. Sorry I am not going to invest 200+ points on a unit that can be swept by a coordinated assault.

lets mathhammer!

10 BA assault marines on the charge. 10 BP for 7 hits 3.5 wounds for 1 dead CSM.

CSM snap fire for 18shots, 3 hits 1.5 w for .5 dead or 1 kill

CSM swings first 9 guys 18A, 9H, 4.5W for 1.5 dead BA 1 kill here we'll average the snap shot kill out here.

BA swing with 8 guys for 24A, 12H and 6W for 2 dead CSM BA win by one and thats with no chalice in range no gear on either side and CSM rolling a 9+ are all dead. ATSKNF is a ridiculously awesome rule.

I guess it's a matter of taste but meq with out some way to avoid being swept are way too risky IMHO.

The BA ASM will never reach them with all 10 members alive. For your mathhammer to be relevant, you'd have to use a more realistic number of BA ASM. You are forgetting that in a real game, those CSM will single tap the ASM, and then double tap them and then overwatch them before the ASM get to take a single swing. Then they swing first in CC. Yeah.......

I have fought against several CSM players and I have been able to sweep exactly twice. It's not that big of a threat, because they don't lose the combats.

17 pts per figure is cheap for boltgun, bolt pistol, 3+ armor, init 5, 2 CC attacks base. I don't need to trust you; this configuration has beat my ass in reality several time now.

No I don't have to factor less because for the same reason you can DOA down with double flamers or plasma and shred the CSM squad and if placed well drop the champ possibly as well forcing a moral check on gak LD and cutting their bite down significantly. Notice I didn't factor HoW or any boosts on either side apart from assuming the charge would come from JP?

I am not disagreeing that the CSM are solid but with the possibility for them to get entirely swept it definitely makes kitting out the squad a huge risk. For 10 with 2 PG and a LC on the champ and banner of excess the unit is 260 and yet again if you DOA in at the right angle can snipe key members including the banner.

Do you have any idea how unreliable DoA is? Or how bad reserves are in general? Deep striking without a drop pod (which allows a disembark), is, in general, a disaster. If you shoot, you end up clumped just asking to be hit with blast markers. And then assaulted for your trouble. If, as CSM, your opponent is using DoA, you've probably won already.

Jump pack troops rarely actually get to use HoW. That is more a trick for bikers.

Yes, CSM are "solid". The same can't be said for BA except maybe in mathhammer land, but even then, I don't see it. In practice, the CSM hold most of the cards.

Martel732 wrote:

 Jackster wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't mean dedicated assault units. I mean little things like how your CSM can get a cheap CC weapon in addition to the boltgun/bolt pistol. So when your shooty guys into into melee, they have an extra atttack! Throw in a mark of slaneesh, and they are a real foil for many meq assault teams, and they will absolutely mash tactical marines given the chance. Astartes marines that can shoot, usually can't do CC at all. This is not true for CSM or Space Wolves. ASM squads basically don't participate in the shooting phase.

By the end of the day, that all end up very expensive. A CSM with CCW, BP and Bolter cost more than a GH and has no ATSKNF or Counter Attack. The Cult Marines (Namely NM and PM) tend to end up more effective in comparisson.

At the end of the day, no meq can stack up to the grey hunter. So that comparison is not necessary. But start comparing your troops to Astartes tacticals and you'll see what I mean. ATSKNF doesn't matter as much if you win the CC.

So you never fail LD test due to casualty and never lose assault?

Well, the regular regroup mechanic seems to work fine for my CSM foes. They are allowed to regroup all the way down to 25% now.

Sure, CSM lose assaults. You just don't see them lose assaults to tactical marines very often. But it's the same risk every other non-marine army has to take. I really don't see what the big deal is.

Martel732 wrote:
Well, the regular regroup mechanic seems to work fine for my CSM foes. They are allowed to regroup all the way down to 25% now.

Sure, CSM lose assaults. You just don't see them lose assaults to tactical marines very often. But it's the same risk every other non-marine army has to take. I really don't see what the big deal is.

Maybe that they cost more than other non-Marine armies?

There are plenty of xeno units that are not fearless and don't have ATSKNF that cost as much or more than the CSM. They are not special in that way.

Martel732 wrote:
There are plenty of xeno units that are not fearless and don't have ATSKNF that cost as much or more than the CSM. They are not special in that way.

You mean ones with ld 10 and repair protocols amazing shooting and royal court members.... oh and the best transport in the game? really don't know what other xenos you had in mind that are similar costed and are troops. For their cost heavily upgraded CSM are a huge risk and require a lord to mitigate this. Unless somehow we use your delussional reasoning that you never lose assaults and always regroup with your nerfed LD. At that point giving your lord mark of slaanesh opens up noise marines anyway which are infinitely better for the same price tag.

I hate BA players complaining about their scoring assault squads, you literally have every troop option available to vanilla marines PLUS your AM score. You can also field 3 FNP pumpng IC per elite slot.

Geeh CC took a hit game wide, good thing I have tac squads that can combat squad, have ATSKNF access to good gear for cheap and have fast transports making them point for point more efficient scoring units them CSM's. Nah I'd rather complain that CSM can grossly over upgrade a 10 man none fearless unit to a cost of 20 tac marines with ATSKNF, has it registered yet how that rule is amazing and better in every way even to fearless?

I wasn't limiting my list to troops, but if you want to just discuss troops then, yes, marines are the priciest I know of.

Yes, ASM that don't participate in shooting. And our tacticals don't have combat tactics. ATSKNF is a lot less handy without combat tactics. And now that BA ASM squads are functionally not much better than vanilla ASM squads, all the complaints people have about them are now relevant to the BA variety. Yes, we get meltas. That helps. But the ASM scheme is just not cutting it in general in 6th.

Don't act like having to take a 50+ point weak IC in order to make the army function as intended is some kind of good thing. Sanguinary priests take away precious body count in 6th edition. And furious charge frankly sucks now.

I think you are really hung up on morale. Yes, CSM are riskier to use in that manner than loyalists. But I haven't seen many games decided by this mechanic. CSM are still frequently getting to roll a LD 9 roll, which is pretty good. And a lot of the CSM I run into have init 5 for that sweep roll. So to make their lack of ATSKNF relevant, I have to get my ASM to them, successfully assault, win the combat, and then beat them on their sweep roll.

Squabbling aside, the list you should really hate is the Space Wolves. But maybe that's just an assumed phenomenon.

Martel732 wrote:
I wasn't limiting my list to troops, but if you want to just discuss troops then, yes, marines are the priciest I know of.

Yes, ASM that don't participate in shooting. And our tacticals don't have combat tactics. ATSKNF is a lot less handy without combat tactics. And now that BA ASM squads are functionally not much better than vanilla ASM squads, all the complaints people have about them are now relevant to the BA variety. Yes, we get meltas. That helps. But the ASM scheme is just not cutting it in general in 6th.

Don't act like having to take a 50+ point weak IC in order to make the army function as intended is some kind of good thing. Sanguinary priests take away precious body count in 6th edition. And furious charge frankly sucks now.

I think you are really hung up on morale. Yes, CSM are riskier to use in that manner than loyalists. But I haven't seen many games decided by this mechanic. CSM are still frequently getting to roll a LD 9 roll, which is pretty good. And a lot of the CSM I run into have init 5 for that sweep roll. So to make their lack of ATSKNF relevant, I have to get my ASM to them, successfully assault, win the combat, and then beat them on their sweep roll.

Squabbling aside, the list you should really hate is the Space Wolves. But maybe that's just an assumed phenomenon.

Well I actually love SW and I am not going to sit here and argue that SW aren't better in almost every regard. I will however make the claim that tac(and there equivalent) loyalist marines are better then chaos marines, even without combat tactics. Saying ATSKNF is not very good without combat tactics is ignorant, fealess is amazing this addition, ATSKNF is better then fearless. Being able to flexibly combat squad is great as well, if chaos SM could decide to split at game start it would make list building a breeze, however this is not the case. I think you are boo hoo9ing a bit too much about loosing the initiative bonus as well, you still have amazing dreads, a premier flier and an option for army wide FNP. I suggest you try fielding different choices and you will see what I mean.

I've played many games with BA in 6th. I will continue to hold my position that they are one of the poorest lists in 6th. Certainly inferior to CSM.

I also don't think tac marines are better than CSM. Tac marines got better for sure in 6th, but so did standard CSM with the changes to rapid fire. I still think you are way over valuing ATSKNF. Maybe it's a case of the grass is always greener?

I can compare the BA to the vanilla marines and still come up with them being worse. It's just not a CSM thing.

The problem with Blood Angels is that one of their strengths is added mobility. Mobility is hard to quantify as an asset, as a poor general can completely nullify advantages an army has in the movement phase, while great stat lines or a pile of models, in comparison, can be far more forgiving to bad game management. If you just want to compare Blood Angel units as a mess of numbers and abilities shared by other codecies, they don't hold up that great as they pay for their added mobility. If you can't figure out how to use that mobility to your advantage...they're not the codex for you.

Well, I have no way to prove this, but I'm well aware of their mobility advantage, and I use it frequently. This advantage is quite useful in many situation and is absolutely necessary to have any shot of beating the upper tier codicies. Unfortunately, there seems to be some pretty severe limitations as to how far uphill the mobility will get the BA. I'm be curious to know if there were any BA players just beating the tar out of everyone and how they are doing it. I've tried mass jumper, mech, and hybrid mech, all with a sub .500 record.

Interestingly, I've often used said mobility to run away from opponents. This makes me feel dirty as a BA player, but I feel that we have no choice vs many lists now.

Stormravens are very much your friend. They are perhaps our star unit in the codex. ALWAYS bring hurricane bolters, and never transport any troops in them. Take 1-2 of them. If you take 2, I personally prefer bringing an Aegis Defense Line with Comms relay for reserve reliability, seeing as it's almost 500 points off the table for 2 of them.

So far against CSM I've found faster, shooty lists to work well. Las/Plas razorbacks wreck face while they are still alive, and you can make good use of their 12" movement with the Fast rule, firing both the Las and TL Plas while moving 12".

Baal's arn't too bad, considering how good assault cannons are this edition. You can pop transports pretty easily with them, or just mow down infantry. AV13 seems to be a good number this edition as well, just keep them out of assault range of course.

Brother Corbulo is a monster this edition. Stick him in front of a squad and all of a sudden they are practically immune to small-arms fire. The big stuff that will ID him you can always pass backwards with a 2+ LOS. I've hundreds of points of guard shoot at him and he took no wounds. (As for the math, there is about 5% chance of him taking an unsaved wound of AP4 and above, and 16% chance of him taking an unsaved wound of AP3 that is less than S8). He's also not too shabby in melee with S5 Rending attacks. His main downside is his mobility, a problem which I solve by putting him in a drop pod.

I don't suggest taking too many bare troops against Chaos. If he decides to get a Heldrake, he'll just toast a squad a turn.

Interestingly, I've often used said mobility to run away from opponents. This makes me feel dirty as a BA player, but I feel that we have no choice vs many lists now.

You arn't running, it's a tactical retreat!

I've actually found the Stormraven to be pretty disappointing. Probably because I expect to get a lot out of 230 point models. It just never seems to do that damage everyone raves about for me.

Remember that I just can't build for CSM. The BA lists I'm considering are all comers. I have stated many times that BA tailored lists are okay, it's the all comers arena that I feel hosed in.

I shy away from bare troops in general, but most my lists have a single 10 man ASM squad with all the ICs in it.

Martel732 wrote:
I've actually found the Stormraven to be pretty disappointing. Probably because I expect to get a lot out of 230 point models. It just never seems to do that damage everyone raves about for me.

Remember that I just can't build for CSM. The BA lists I'm considering are all comers. I have stated many times that BA tailored lists are okay, it's the all comers arena that I feel hosed in.

I shy away from bare troops in general, but most my lists have a single 10 man ASM squad with all the ICs in it.

Depends on how you equip them. I generally go for TLAC/TLMM. This gives you the tools to deal with anti-flyer and anti-tank (TLMM/Bloodstrike Missiles), and anti-infantry (TLAC/Hurricane bolters.) With you large movement range you should be 12" position to either get into melta range or double-tap hurricane bolters. Don't forget that they can fire 5 full BS shots a turn, one at a different target if needed, with PotMS.

The only thing you really need to be conscious about is their mobility arc. You need to plan a couple turns ahead while moving them in order to not get stuck in a corner, or have to go off the table.

Also, bringing 2 seems to be better than bringing 1. One isn't TOO hard to focus down with a quad gun and an enemy flyer, but 2 can be a big concern for the enemy. Only jink when statistically necessary to maximize your firepower as well.

Unfortunately, I only own one, and don't have the budget for a second. Even if I could bring two, this seems like a rather hollow solution.