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All the Texas GTs for WHFB (Lonewolf, Cap City/BOLSCon, Bayou & Alamo) run open list. Or did when I was last at them. It's different. There's aspects I like (the removal of annoying things like- oh, that guy has the Helm of Many Eyes? Why haven't you been taking stupidity checks?) and aspects I miss (being able to surprise or bluff people with my dwarf load outs- when they know what I've got they can avoid my slow, stumpy dudes if they need to).

GBDarkAngel - really, why the insults?

40K is, by default, open information. It says so in the rules. So no, it is not "the average age of the players" at all.

I prefer semi closed - you know what models are armed with, mundane equipment and non magical "things", and find out about banners etc as they affect the game.

Fantasy was designed around keeping certain elements secrret

Killjoy00 wrote:
I couldn't imagine playing without it. Honestly, it matter for night goblins? You know they have fanatics.

There's a difference between *knowing* that your enemy is loaded in Fanatics or just pretending to. It removes a pretty important element from Goblin lists and puts them at a clear disadvantage over most other lists. Open lists in Fantasy even breaks the rules - what point would there be in magic spells telling you what magic items one is equipped with if you already know about it? Playing with open lists is a disadvantage for many lists, worse for a few, and you don't gain anything by it anyway. If someone misses important rules (e.g. "Woops, I got Helm of 1k eyes!"), declare the game a loss for him, it's the same as cheating.

Semi-open is the objectively best way to tackle the issue.

Actually even a closed list would include the unit's point cost value which is all you need to know if/how many fanatics are in it.

 HoverBoy wrote:
Actually even a closed list would include the unit's point cost value which is all you need to know if/how many fanatics are in it.

I'm used to list disclosure and exchanging lists after the game. Fanatics have to be noted in secret and get checked with a referee. Worked for all tournaments except one where my opponent downright lied to the referee blaming me for cheating, claiming I had moved my Fanatics to other units "when I wanted to". The initial referee had to leave the tournament due to private reasons and a second one took over. He then called the first one via phone and, surprise, he told him I was right. My enemy had been disqualified for the rest of the tournament and was sent home. Bunghole even threatened to sue the TO over the 5€ starting fee. Jesus.

I just looked at the Fanatics rule. The rule itself is worded exactly like assassins. it says to write down which unit they are in. So your army list will show you bought X number of fanatics and at the start, you can jot down who has them.

If they really meant it to be closed list, why bother with these "write down the unit" rules.

Also, which spells tell you what magic items? Just for my own curiosity, I haven't seen these before.

There's clearly items (example: Ogre's Rock Eye) and spells (example: High Elves' Vauls Unmaking) that imply very strongly that the game is naturally closed-list, though in my opinion, it works fairly well as an open list game too.

For fanatics, I may run a NG unit that may have 1 or zero fanatics in it. I have all my banners with names written on it. I will notice the name of the banner and number of fanatics on a sticky note, fold it in half and place it on the edge of the table in the middle before the game. If questioned, I can show them the paper to prove I didn't change anything around.

I played in 1 open list tournament, Army that had hidden items could show a list without costs and then give them a list with costs at the end of game. My opponent saw the word fanatics and thought I only had 1, So he let me Hand of Gork the NG unit to the flank. I had to show him my sticky note and my Full Point army list to show I wasn't cheating him.

(How I hate Open lists).

I'm of the opinion that you should tell your opponent that you have fanatics, or an assassin. No need to tell him how many or where they are mind you, that ruins the surprise.
There are a few items and spells that reveal magic items; vauls unmaking specifically says that the opposing player reveals what items are in the unit, and the special character Heinrich Kemmler has an item that forces those within 12" to reveal their items. There's even a beastmen item that does something similar.
WFB is designed for this sort of thing, but open lists aren't a problem, when I play (sometimes even in a tournament) I happily tell my opponent exactly what my characters are carrying and exactly where my hidden stuff is. I'll even tell him what im gonna do in my next turn, the point being that there's nothing he can do about it.

Every tournement I have played in requires you bring several copies of your list 1 for each opponent, 1 for tourney organizer and 1 for yourself so 8 lists in a 6 round tourney. They are considered open list. Secrecy is for no talent players.

tgf wrote:
Secrecy is for no talent players.

That's not a useful or contructive statement.

I'm in an almost exclusively open list environment, but have played and greatly enjoyed some closed list games. It feels a little like poker (and try saying there's no talent to playing *that* game) in that you try to infer list items from how the other player is moving his pieces.

Open list simplifies things and makes tournaments easier to manage. Closed lists is how the game is written to be played (see magic items/spells that reveal hidden things and the inclusion of hidden units as has been mentioned).

We play closed lists here for everyday play. For tournaments we generally still do closed lists with copies for your opponent, although we do a fair share of open lists with allowances for hidden items (the aforementioned fanatics, assassins, etc). Closed lists at tournaments just means the TO has to come down hard on cheaters, as they should.

The game is enjoyable either way, but I prefer closed lists. Of course, our everyday play group has weeded out the true dingleberries, so there isn't any issue

Killjoy00 wrote:
I just looked at the Fanatics rule. The rule itself is worded exactly like assassins. it says to write down which unit they are in. So your army list will show you bought X number of fanatics and at the start, you can jot down who has them.

If they really meant it to be closed list, why bother with these "write down the unit" rules.

Also, which spells tell you what magic items? Just for my own curiosity, I haven't seen these before.

Have you played (in a tournament) before? :/ You write it down so after the game, there's a proof you really put them in the right units and can't just make sth. up during the game.

Yeah, you don't write it down and then show it to your opponent. You show them after the game.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah, you don't write it down and then show it to your opponent. You show them after the game.

Else there would be no point in writing it down, you could just tell him as he stands right in front of you

I have actually played many more 40k tourneys, if that has any bearing on anything.

I thought open lists were silly then, and there were not rules that depended upon the rules that state they should be played as such.

Tourney lists are shared with opponents post game, TO's are there to check prior.